Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

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VegettoEX
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Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:21 pm

Episode #0249 (download MP3) (rss feed)
68:38; 96 kbps, mono; 47.4 MB

Episode #0249! VegettoEX and KaiserNeko cover the mostly non-news and March's releases. Herms joins to give an in-depth crash course in "Journey to the West", the Chinese story which served as the initial inspiration for "DragonBall". Two stories from the first TV series directly reference characters and items from its inspiration, and in ways you may never have known! Referenced sites:
w0rd.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by songohan619 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:41 pm

Downloading now, VeggerottEX!

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:59 pm

Ah, the anime's Kinkaku and Ginkaku. They sure look like rejected villains from Hokuto no Ken. :P

Jake mentions a 'four-tailed monkey', that is the tailed-beast that Rôshi (of the Stone Village) is the host of. He is, like said, a big reference to Dragon Ball for obvious reasons.

Anyhow, the Kinkaku and Ginkaku of the Naruto comic do use tools based on those they use in Journey to the West. The Treasured Tools of the Sage of the Six Paths. The Brothers use the Benihisago to steal the souls of those affected by the Kôkinjô. With their enourmous supplies of chakra they are of the few able to use the Treasures, which obviously drain the user's chakra. Eventually Ginkaku is forced to ask Kinkaku for his help. Kinkaku being his most said word, Ginkaku is sealed within the Benihisago. The Raikage (leader of the Cloud Village) sent the Kohaku no Jôhei to the battlefield where Nara Shikamaru, Yamanaka Ino, and Akimichi Chôji team up to get Kinkaku (who had transformed into his psuedo Nine-Tails cloaked form) to reply to Darui's calling. In the end, both brothers are sealed up once again, Kinkaku lamenting that he was beaten by nobodies.

Darui, of course, replies that when enough copper is accumulated even it is more valuable than silver or gold.


Anyhow, that's a lot of work you guys did. Great work!!

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Chuquita » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:35 am

I'm so grateful Kanzentai exists; while I was listening to the podcast I remembered seeing an episode of DB where Goku was climbing up what I remembered as a pole (looks like I recalled wrong with that, turns out it was a mountain) while wearing this crown on his head and getting struck repeatedly by lightning, but it was so long ago I didn't remember the episode title or anything else about it. The episode guide helped me find it.

http://kanzentai.com/eps-db.php?id=127
Was this filler episode in any way related to an event in Journey to the West? Goku with a crown on and being dealt pain makes me immediately think of Wukong.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Rukura » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:37 pm

Great podcast! (Having KaiserNeko on after such a great Abridged episode was also quite cool :D )

After listening about the awesomeness that is Journey to the West, i look forward to reading it myself. Thanks for the awesome topic :D

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Since I got an honorable mention or so to speak, allow me to give you this Wall-O-Text...

After Wukong's rebellion on King Yama and deleting his and his family's names from the book of the dead ((along to his actions with the Dragon Kings)), the Jade Emperor ordered to capture this monkey. But Lao Tzu suggested to bring him over and deal with him without resorting to violence. Once he got there, Wukong asked to have an appropriate place worthy of him being an immortal. The Emperor asked if there are any empty spots for him to fill, and they gave Wukong the duty of being the protector of the horses. Of course, Wukong had no idea about his rank and thought it as high as the rest of the gods. But once he knew about it, he raged and reassigned and went back to Earth.

When he returned, he told his fellow monkey family about the humiliation he suffered there, and they supported him with this. At that moment, it was suggested to call their mighty king "The Great Sage Equal To Heaven". When the Emperor finds out about Wukong, he ordered to send his troops down there and get that damn monkey. The fight between the monkeys and the Heavenly army lasted for a long time ((Years to be exact)), but Lao Tzu once again, suggested to bring Wukong once again and fulfill his wish of being The Great Sage like what he proclaims to be. But it would be an empty title and nothing more.

Satisfied with fulfilling his desire, Wukong spent his time having fun with himself or by teasing other gods and getting all friendly with them. But there complaints about him not doing anything. So, they looked for a job for him to do. And it was decided to make him the keeper of the peach gardens of the Queen Mother of the West (Xi Wangmu). Now, Wukong was the keeper of the immortality peaches, but he was not allowed to eat any of them. But... when he finds out that he was not invited to the royal banquet that all of the gods are attending, he ate all the fresh fruits leaving the small green ones, and then he ate all the food and had all the wine and even all of Lao Tzu's immortality pills. He was drunk all the time, but he realized that he got himself in a big, big trouble...!!

Back to Earth, Wukong made preparations for a possible attack from heaven. And when the time came, he was attacked by non less than 100,000 warriors. He fought and defeated them all, and Emperor knew that he is not going to win. But, there was one warrior who was able to put a fight on par with the great sage. And that warrior was Erlang Shen. He was so strong to the point of forcing Wukong to fleet and try to outdo him with his transformations. But with the teamwork of Shen and the rest of the Taoists and Buddhists.

----

I do agree with VegettoEX about reading the Anthony C. Yu. versions. If you are not used to reading these big books, you'll get bored pretty easily. But I'll let it out that I almost stopped reading the first volume during Xuanzang's expositions because it was damn boring and confusing as hell!! And for the record, Xuanzang is my least favorite of the group. why? Because:
  • 1- He is a forced main character. The story from the start was about Sun Wukong. Why all of a sudden they bring this unrelated character and with so much needles exposition after exposition about his origin?!
    2- He doesn't learn from his mistakes. He got tricked numerous times by demons disguised as pretty ladies, and he ignores Wukong's warnings.
    3- He doesn't trust Wukong no matter what he does for him. Wukong saved his master's ass over and over again, but he doesn't take his warnings seriously. He always think he is up to no good. And stupid Zhu Bajie doesn't help that much with him framing Wukong and calling him wrong.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Formel » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:05 pm

I've been extatic that my e-mail got such a quick reply, I had to register just to able to say this.

Some clarification, by catching up since 15th Dec I meant reading the manga, and watching some parts of the anime I was interested in... (Actually, watching the anime is still it a "work" in progress.)
And I'm "only" on episode 154 with podcast, had much fun so far.

Yes, I've been enjoying both the podcast and DragonBall. It's always great to hear more about Journey to the West I love old stories/legends like that.

Now, I'll go and continue with ep. 154.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by AgitoZ » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:01 pm

I was surprised by how much I enjoyed the podcast. Hearing the parallels between Journey to the West and Dragon Ball. It's like an audio book version of the forum topic, or at least a supplement.

Even with the missing news it was still an enjoyable episode.

By the way, Mike did you at least pop in the Bakuman DVD and watch it? If you did I thought you would at least mention that Kageyama sings the intro to the main character's uncle's manga. I thought that was kinda cool. Who sings the covers actually? At least if it was Akito's voice actor it would make sense since his favorite manga is Dragon Ball.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Innagadadavida » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:17 am

Didn't you guys miss a pretty big one? Isn't Broly's headpiece also based on Wukong's crown?

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Herms » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:50 am

Chuquita wrote:Was this filler episode in any way related to an event in Journey to the West? Goku with a crown on and being dealt pain makes me immediately think of Wukong.
The crown does match the standard design used for Wukong's crown, but other than that there doesn't seem to be much similarity between the two.
Innagadadavida wrote:Didn't you guys miss a pretty big one? Isn't Broly's headpiece also based on Wukong's crown?
Well, that's just more speculation based on vague connections. Broli's crown doesn't match the standard design usually used for Wukong's crown, and the film makers haven't said anything about that being their intention. I mean, it's possible, but you could with equal validity claim that the androids' shutdown controller was a reference to Wukong's crown.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Innagadadavida » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:17 pm

Well, I feel like the connection between Broly and Wukong is stronger based on the fact that the device in question is worn on the head. :| Broly is also portrayed as unstoppable, much like Wukong, with the crown as a device used to control him. He is also a Saiyan, like Goku, so he shares a monkey heritage.

More in common than the Androids or Oolong, basically.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by songohan619 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:49 pm

Mike, i have the BluRay of Dead Zone from the Burst Limit Release. You Want?

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by MetaMoss » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:03 am

The only other info I've gotten on Journey to the West was a boring summary on Wikipedia, so what you guys talked about was interesting. Maybe I'll check it out next time I'm at a bookstore. Though I'm thinking that the concept of heaven in the Chinese way of thinking it would get screwed up fast, with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all having huge contradictions with other beliefs (specifically "There is no other gods except Yahweh" [aka God, Jehovah, the Lord, okay basically the Jewish/Christian God]). I also think the same about this "Coexist" junk that's floating around. Personally, I'm a Protestant Christian.

Anyways, great discussion. Always fun to listen to.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Herms » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:22 pm

Innagadadavida wrote:More in common than the Androids or Oolong, basically.
Well, Oolong's explicitly based on a JttW character and the PP Candy are during the part of the story where Toriyama's still modeling things after JttW. I think that after you get out of that first portion of the story where it's explicitly a JttW parody that you need stronger connections before you can say that something was probably inspired by JttW, and I don't think Broli quite cuts it. Certainly there are similarities, but not so much that it couldn't have been a coincidence, I feel.
metamoss wrote:Though I'm thinking that the concept of heaven in the Chinese way of thinking it would get screwed up fast, with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all having huge contradictions with other beliefs
I should note that I probably spoke too broadly when I said that it was the "Chinese way" to see Taoism and Buddhism as complementary rather than contradictory. There has been friction between the two in China in the past, though for the most part they never really had religious wars like in Europe. But by the time JttW was written (the 16th century, during the Ming Dynasty) it was common to see "the three religions" (Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism) as just different ways to the same truth, and that's the position JttW takes. You can also see this is Fengshen Yanyi, "The Canonization of the Gods", another work written roughly around the same time as JttW that also has Buddha teaming up with Taoist figures, in this case to take down the corrupt Shang Dynasty (Laozi appears again as Taishang Laojun like in JttW). The gods of the title are actually the Shang rulers and generals, who after being defeated are purified of their sins and deified (kind of like in Sonic when you destroy a robot and free the animal inside, I guess). So anyway, viewing Taoist and Buddhist figures as coexisting was common (Confucianism doesn't give you much mythological elements to play around with, so it tends to get left out in works like these), but I don't know if these Ming writers would necessarily have extended the favor to other religions. Christianity and Islam had actually reached China by the Ming Dynasty, so it's not impossible the writers of JttW and Fengshen Yanyi knew about them, but both works refer only to the above-mentioned "three religions". So the writers either didn't know or didn't care about any religions outside of those three that had by this point been long established in China.

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Re: Episode #0249 (27 February 2011)

Post by Innagadadavida » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:32 pm

Herms wrote:
Innagadadavida wrote:More in common than the Androids or Oolong, basically.
Well, Oolong's explicitly based on a JttW character and the PP Candy are during the part of the story where Toriyama's still modeling things after JttW. I think that after you get out of that first portion of the story where it's explicitly a JttW parody that you need stronger connections before you can say that something was probably inspired by JttW, and I don't think Broli quite cuts it. Certainly there are similarities, but not so much that it couldn't have been a coincidence, I feel.
Nono, I'm saying that Broly's headpiece is closer to Son Wukong's crown than the candy Bulma gave Oolong. More in common as far as being controlled by an object adorned by another. Which you made the connection between Wukong's crown and Oolong's candy on the Podcast.

It may be a coincidence, you're right. But I believe the anime staff probably consciously took inspiration from Journey with Movie 8, much like they did with anime filler. Though they may have never spoken about it publicly, there are too many obvious coincidences for it to have had no barring whatsoever. As we've seen with the plots of the movies, the writers have never been too particularly creative or original to begin with.

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