Kai or Z?

[Kojiro Sasaki]

What I was trying to say was that blurriness has nothing to do with resolution, because you can have a sharp and grainy picture in SD and a blurry and heavily DNR'd picture in HD. Of course, the SD picture can suffer more from compression artifacts than its HD counterpart...

When I said that softness = lack of resolution I was referring only to Kai's softness. Original source had sharpness and detail but it was scrapped out along with grain. Don't you think that what you said is a little bit too obvious to be explained?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Kai isnt THAT good to me, after rewatching it a lot of it bored me, too much of the dialogue sounds at times flat and more other times robotic. I'd say I'd rather watch the old dub post-Freeza saga for the more upbeat feeling.

[Blade]

Kai isnt THAT good to me, after rewatching it a lot of it bored me, too much of the dialogue sounds at times flat and more other times robotic. I'd say I'd rather watch the old dub post-Freeza saga for the more upbeat feeling.

Well, the respective casts have been performing the same lines in various different forms for years on end, especially with the quantity of video games that have covered the same storylines. With so much repetition and regurgitation, it's natural to expect the delivery of, what is essentially the same material, to come across as a little stale these days.

And besides - we're talking about TV voice actors here, not classically trained Shakespearean thespians.

[KentalSSJ6]

Kai isnt THAT good to me, after rewatching it a lot of it bored me, too much of the dialogue sounds at times flat and more other times robotic. I'd say I'd rather watch the old dub post-Freeza saga for the more upbeat feeling.

Well, the respective casts have been performing the same lines in various different forms for years on end, especially with the quantity of video games that have covered the same storylines. With so much repetition and regurgitation, it's natural to expect the delivery of, what is essentially the same material, to come across as a little stale these days.

And besides - we're talking about TV voice actors here, not classically trained Shakespearean thespians.

*Pictures Goku reciting Shakespeare with a skull in his hand*

Nope.

[ABED]

too much of the dialogue sounds at times flat and more other times robotic.

Care to give any examples?

[Valerius Dover]

Well, it's a mixed bag for me. It's very difficult for me to actually hate anything, but I will note pros and cons.

Dragon Ball Z Pros
-Extended Edition. (Honestly filler is such a negative word, I see it as being more of an extended treat, since I actually like it)
-Music Choices (Seriously, in the dub we can choose whether we want Johnson/Faulconer or Kikuchi, and it evolves over the course of the series, without being too repetitive)

Dragon Ball Z Cons
-Awkward transition with certain voices they forgot to redub or ignored. Vegeta sounds like he has a cold from Trunks to Cell Games. (Must've been a bad one to last three years... )
-The Faulconer music from Captain Ginyu to Garlic Jr. sounds a little too quiet. The Japanese music has a similar problem in the early sets as well.
-Vinegar: "DARN, YES WAY!" (his last words). A little too much pseudo-swearing (except the Namek Saga where everyone swore like pirates)

Dragon Ball Z Kai Pros
-Better pacing, which makes this a good option, too. (I'm not contradicting, I'm saying I like this, too)
-Superb and consistent acting. (Well, minus Frieza's initial laugh, but maybe he had a cold)
-Piccolo: "Shut the hell up." Need I say more?

Dragon Ball Z Kai Cons
-Repetitive Music. Like somebody pointed out, it would've been nice had Yamamoto be able to get away with his shenanigans for just a bit longer. The Kikuchi placements don't always do it for me, though I can deal with it.
-Awkwardly rushed in a few places. Usually, the editing's smooth. Other times, not so much.

[Gaffer Tape]

-Awkward transition with certain voices they forgot to redub or ignored. Vegeta sounds like he has a cold from Trunks to Cell Games. (Must've been a bad one to last three years... )

I was quite confused by this at first. Three years? The length of time between the arrival of Trunks and the beginning of the Cell Games was just a little over a year's worth of episodes. But then I realized you were probably referring to the dub... which made even less sense, as those episodes aired in America over the span of just a few months. But THEN I remembered those stupid, stupid season sets that are constantly tripping people up to this day by assigning arbitrary season numbers that make no sense and are totally inaccurate. And those episodes are indeed spread out across three "season" sets, aren't they?

Well, make no mistake. Everything from Trunks through the Cell Games was part of the same season: season 4 of the U.S. DBZ, broadcast in the fall of 2000. So regardless of what you think of Sabat's performance as Vegeta, there was no 3-year-long cold.

[ABED]

-Awkward transition with certain voices they forgot to redub or ignored. Vegeta sounds like he has a cold from Trunks to Cell Games. (Must've been a bad one to last three years... )

I was quite confused by this at first. Three years? The length of time between the arrival of Trunks and the beginning of the Cell Games was just a little over a year's worth of episodes. But then I realized you were probably referring to the dub... which made even less sense, as those episodes aired in America over the span of just a few months. But THEN I remembered those stupid, stupid season sets that are constantly tripping people up to this day by assigning arbitrary season numbers that make no sense and are totally inaccurate. And those episodes are indeed spread out across three "season" sets, aren't they?

Well, make no mistake. Everything from Trunks through the Cell Games was part of the same season: season 4 of the U.S. DBZ, broadcast in the fall of 2000. So regardless of what you think of Sabat's performance as Vegeta, there was no 3-year-long cold.

Well, it makes a mangled sort of sense when you think that they should've just called them "Volumes"

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeah, calling them volumes would have made perfect sense.

[Valerius Dover]

Oh, sorry, I'm a little vague sometimes. I know all about how that entire arc aired in 2000, before they even aired Dragon Ball. I do a lot of research, so I know my history here. I meant Vegeta having a cold in-universe. When I said "3 years" I was referring to the 3-year time gap towards the end of the Trunks Saga.

[Smochi]

And besides - we're talking about TV voice actors here, not classically trained Shakespearean thespians.

Chris Sabat was trained in opera, Chris Ayres was a Shakespearean actor before a voice actor, Michael Tatum's influence in acting is Shakespeare, Colleen Clinkbeard has a bachelors in theater (most schools require at least a few classical method classes), and that's just a few off the top of my head. I mean I don't want to be all like "NO YUR WRONG," but I always thought it was so interesting at how many voice actors come from classical backgrounds.

[DB_Fan1991]

To make it short and sweet my preference is this:

Japanese Version: Z
English Dub: Kai

If you want the long version then here goes:

In the JPN version of Z the Seiyuus were in their prime. They all sounded natural. In Kai the returning Seiyuus sounded like they phoned their performances in while the new actors just didn't sound as good as their older Seiyuus did except for Aya Hirano as Dende.

In the English dub of Z the voice actors sounded like amateurs when they first started during the middle of the Freeza arc (I know that they were by the way, but I'm saying it was very obvious). The scripts were laughably bad. While the scripts didn't really get much better during Z the VA's performances sure improved over time. Of the original dubbed episodes the Boo Arc was at least tolerable at best, but nowhere near as awesome as the original. The redub of the Saiyan & early Freeza arcs was on par with the Boo arc VA wise, but the scripts were essentially the same as the first time with a few of the most obvious errors corrected (like Vegeta's Your father was a brilliant scientist line.) The scenes that were cut the first time were dubbed pretty accurately, not Kai-accurate, but at least on par with the best dubbed episodes of DB & DBGT.

The English dub of Kai on the other hand has a very accurate script for the most part. Some episodes were iffy, but tolerable (like the best parts of the redubs of Z Saiyan-Early Freeza arc level). Most of the voice changes were for the better. Chris Ayres' Freeza is music to my ears and sounds like an English Ryusei Nakao to me. My only issues VA change wise were Jason Liebrecht As Jheese & Colleen Clinkenbeard as Aritficial Human #18. The former is just trying to copy what Chris Sabat did in Z & the latter doesn't sound as tough like Meredith McCoy did in Z. At least Sabat has reclaimed Jheese as of Battle Of Z, so that's good. As for the returning cast. I'm happy with who returned with the exception of Sean Schemmel's Kaio-Sama & Chris Sabat's Reacoom. With an accurate script the unfittingness of their voices really starts to show. In the old dub their voices fit the bad scripts fine. I wish Doc Morgan would have voiced Kaio & I think Travis Willingham would have made a good Reacoom or if Sabat wanted to keep the role then he should have used his Alex Louis Armstrong voice as that would have worked a lot better.

[dbboxkaifan]

You could zoom it in but the widescreen crop end result would never be as good as the selective cropping that TOEI's done for DBK.

So if you want Kai in its widescreen presentation you have to get the Japanese DVDs (Yamamoto for the early prints, and later likely have the recycled soundtrack) or the French (Recycled soundtrack only) as they offer 16x9 AR.

[Blade]

And besides - we're talking about TV voice actors here, not classically trained Shakespearean thespians.

Chris Sabat was trained in opera, Chris Ayres was a Shakespearean actor before a voice actor, Michael Tatum's influence in acting is Shakespeare, Colleen Clinkbeard has a bachelors in theater (most schools require at least a few classical method classes), and that's just a few off the top of my head. I mean I don't want to be all like "NO YUR WRONG," but I always thought it was so interesting at how many voice actors come from classical backgrounds.

I guess I should have been more specific, as practically all avenues of formal education in acting involve some level of versing in the classics. I've taken high school drama classes that have taught Shakespeare - but I wouldn't call myself classically trained (or even an actor) in the most earnest respect.

I was implying that they're not the kind of people who've been to RADA, performed in RSc productions or have played to sold out houses in extensive Broadway runs before turning their hand to voice acting. I'm pretty sure in the case of Sabat, it was one of his first professional gigs.

[ABED]

I was implying that they're not the kind of people who've been to RADA, performed in RSc productions or have played to sold out houses in extensive Broadway runs before turning their hand to voice acting. I'm pretty sure in the case of Sabat, it was one of his first professional gigs.

Why does that matter? As if learning Shakespeare is the holy grail for actors. I'm sorry, but I'm gonna be the dissenter here, I don't care for Shakespeare. I don't like poetry, and like language that is far more literal. I think even in a good Shakespeare production, the acting gets bogged down by having to spout his words than straightforward dialog.

While it's unfortunate that he had to get his experience starting with such a popular show, but experience usually counts for a lot more than where one gets their training.

[Blade]

I was implying that they're not the kind of people who've been to RADA, performed in RSc productions or have played to sold out houses in extensive Broadway runs before turning their hand to voice acting. I'm pretty sure in the case of Sabat, it was one of his first professional gigs.

Why does that matter? As if learning Shakespeare is the holy grail for actors. I'm sorry, but I'm gonna be the dissenter here, I don't care for Shakespeare. I don't like poetry, and like language that is far more literal. I think even in a good Shakespeare production, the acting gets bogged down by having to spout his words than straightforward dialog.

You're missing the point. All I was trying to get across was that the guys Funimation brought in weren't exactly distinguished and finely honed specimens that have learned their trade through training at distinguished institutions or gained practice through the rigor of high caliber productions. 'Shakespeare' is irrelevant, it was just apt given the examples of RADA and the RSC - two distinguished routes for actors to traverse.

If you go back to my original post, you'll see that the point I was making was that they can be forgiven for stale delivery as a result of years of repetition, as they're hardly guys who are swinging from the top of their profession. And I'm sorry, but that's true - guys like Sabat have gained aptitude in their fields through years of experience, but they're not world-beaters - else they'd have long since gone on to bigger and greater things.

While it's unfortunate that he had to get his experience starting with such a popular show, but experience usually counts for a lot more than where one gets their training.

I dunno - tell that to people like Patrick Stewart. And whilst I agree that experience is in many ways, and in many cases, more important than training - the environment in which that experience is gained is equally as important. Try keeping the same lines fresh for every night in a top Broadway musical, with the specter of being replaced constantly hanging over you in every show. That's a pressure environment at the highest level that can't really be compared with voice acting at the level that the guys at Funimation were working.

Even as far as voice acting goes, the guys at Funimation are a long way off the top of the ladder.

I'm not attempting to be dismissive of their efforts - I'm just trying to keep expectations of them grounded.

[ABED]

else they'd have long since gone on to bigger and greater things.

Not claiming they are, but what they do is pretty damn great. They were part of a pop culture and kids' childhoods, that's big, and shouldn't be dismissed. Not to sound cliché, but success is in the mind of the beholder.

Acting on screen and voice acting are two different types of acting, with a different skill set.

[Blade]

else they'd have long since gone on to bigger and greater things.

Acting on screen and voice acting are two different types of acting, with a different skill set.

That is true - but like I said, the guys involved in the Funimation production are still pretty small links in the chain. The cream of the crop all work in Hollywood movie and blockbuster game voice acting - with big budget television show voice acting on the rung below that. These are the lucrative, highly desirable destinations for a voice actor's career.

On the other hand, a small company like Funimation that specialises in dubbing Anime is nowhere near a comparable draw - and whilst the affection that the likes of Sabat have for their work isn't in question, it seems unlikely that, given the chance, they would have passed up the opportunities to progress beyond it if such routes had ever been available to them. Essentially, the work that they did on Dragonball Z, whilst they were relative novices, is the work they're still most known for - the pinnacle of their careers thus far, which for many of them is something that they still need to trade off even in 2014.

Now I'm not saying that the abilities of the talent hasn't improved since the original dub - as heck, we all know it has, but I think it's still important to be grounded when discussing the quality of their performances and scope of their abilities. For example, even as far as regular TV voice actors go (which is a whole tier above Funimation), guys like Sabat are never going to reach the level of people like Billy West, who find themselves in regular demand on account of their talent, despite their occasionally exorbitant fees.

[ABED]

These opportunities you speak of are typically made, they aren't given. Sabat and others would have to relocate and go after positions that the Billy West's and John DiMaggio's have. Those are so rare, and not necessarily because they are the best. Even great talent don't necessarily reach that level of success. I think you are conflating monetary success and talent.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Kai isnt THAT good to me, after rewatching it a lot of it bored me, too much of the dialogue sounds at times flat and more other times robotic. I'd say I'd rather watch the old dub post-Freeza saga for the more upbeat feeling.

Well, the respective casts have been performing the same lines in various different forms for years on end, especially with the quantity of video games that have covered the same storylines. With so much repetition and regurgitation, it's natural to expect the delivery of, what is essentially the same material, to come across as a little stale these days.

Its not the preformance, it's Kai's script. Sure in the Freeza saga it was much better but by the Perfect Cell saga the diaogue for me was horrible. It felt like those times where something sounds better on paper than it does when read. I dunno, the entire Gohan v. Cell fight in Kai in comparison to the old dub was very very dull to me and Sean's preformance as Goku sounded really forced. Goku also has a weird babyish sound to his delivery in some areas where in Z he sounded firm and focused.

Then there were some instances where I prefered the old dialogue where it felt more natural.

Like when Gohan fires his Super Kamehameha at Cell in the sky and he returns:
In DBZ Goku reminds Gohan not to stall or Cell would regenerate from Piccolo. It was logical and tactical advice.
In Kai Goku just simply loses it and panics, calls Cell desprate and unpredictable.

Then There was Perfect Cell who's lines sounded way to jumbled together, the overall problem inhereted by Freeza where they try to fit too many big words into small spaces for speech; thus making the lines sound rushed and inconsistant with characters talking unecessarily fast.

Then there's the Father-Son Kamehameha scene where Goku pushes Gohan to use his anger to motivate him. The delivery in Z was far more emphasized the first run. In Kai it sounded a bit sloppy.
When Goku tells Gohan to explode:
- In kai he has this long quivery "Noooow"
- In Z he has a strong sudden "Nows Youre Chance!"
Same message came across but I just felt Z did it better in that arc.

And besides - we're talking about TV voice actors here, not classically trained Shakespearean thespians.

The problem with Kai is that they were trying to make DBZ sound like shakespere. Freeza's unecessary english accent was evidence alone of this. Then the whole thing where they were trying to make the characters overarticulate everything or use bizzare metaphors mid-sentence even if the scenes themselves weren't that big or small conclusions. ^ This though I know is because of the fanbase constantly bashing the old dub at voice pannels or being smartasses by pointing out what pronounciation and other trivial crap"inaccurate" and what isn't just because it didnt mirror the manga word for word. Naruto fans do this as well to Viz or even casual Fan panels. The problem I have when they use direct dictionary translations of japanese dialogue into english as is; is that most of the time the delivery or wording of contextual scenes just comes off as very unnatural when I compare it to common speech. A lot of Funimation dubs have this problem, that weeaboos seem to love. Nobody in a realistic highschool would ever yell out to someone "Don't take me for a fool!" blah blah if they cant get the girl's attention. Its just stupid..but I digress.

*Pictures Goku reciting Shakespeare with a skull in his hand*

Nope.

*Pictures Freeza saying anything.. with a skull in his hand"

Probable, possible...even likely? Forced anyway? yes.

Thats Kai for me.