"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[sintzu]

So this isn't about Super being 'childish', but you not liking the humor.

And there are more Shonen that exist besides those three you named.

That's like calling Dragon Ball childish because it isn't Fist of the North Star or Death Note, both that are Shonen.

As an One Piece fan, One Piece has far, far more childish moments than Super even in serious scenes.

It's about comedy being childish and in the wrong places. DB had comedy in it but it was mostly timed right and it didn't treat the viewer like a child.

Those are the ones I've seen so far, 2 of which are inspired by DB so they were the best comparison.

I'm not calling super that because it isn't DN or FOTNS, it's because it's that compared to the original DB and other Shonen that it inspired. It's even childish compared to its manga counterpart.

Like I said, it's timed right and most of the time it's funny. I've seen up till the end of Thriller Bark and so far everything seems perfectly balanced.

[emperior]

It would be great if Vegeta got sidelined just for one arc, even two if it's needed. He's getting stale.
Have him explore himself, change his perspective and drives. Have Bulma and Trunks help him find some true motivations, and also let Vegeta show some passion in training and fighting...

Don't you think you're expecting to much from a kids show?

Is that really too much? I don't think so. We already had a DBZ episode where Vegeta explored himself - that was back when he was training for the androids.
It wouldn't really be that hard to show Vegeta reflect about what he really wants. It could happen after the ToP if Goku once again is the one to save the day. It could make Vegeta think about what would have been of his family if it wasn't for Goku. Instead of throwing a tantrum, he could just finally thank Goku, and realize he must change his ways if he truly wants to improve. This doesn't have to be done in an extremely mature way. It wouldn't be that different than other moments such as the one I mentioned above, or when Vegeta told Gohan he was sorry, or when he let Babidi control him, or when he sacrificed himself or when he had an interior monologue about Goku's superiority.

Also, I repeat, they could actually change things for once and let Vegeta be the one who arrives when the situation is critical and save the day. It could be sort of like when he arrived to kill Android 19/Golden Freeza. Except Vegeta wouldn't be his cocky self, but instead he would be calm and confident. Which would also finally make Whis words come full circle. And it would finally be the time Vegeta fully lets go off his unhealthy relationship with Goku.

[Kanassa]

And as an One Piece fan, One Piece has far, far more childish moments than Super even in serious scenes.

Anyone remember the SKypeia arc? That was filled with comedy followed up by seriousness in a second

[sintzu]

Is that really too much?

Also, I repeat, they could actually change things for once and let Vegeta be the one who arrives when the situation is critical and save the day.

The reason some say it's too much is because they know or think Super won't do it so instead of demanding it they just act tlike they're OK with it. Remember how great the Xbox brand was ? you can thank its fans who wouldn't demand anything for it falling as low as it has.

I think this might happen sooner or later. I don't think it's a big chance but maybe 25-30%.

[HeroR]

It's about comedy being childish and in the wrong places. DB had comedy in it but it was mostly timed right and it didn't treat the viewer like a child.

Those are the ones I've seen so far, 2 of which are inspired by DB so they were the best comparison.

I'm not calling super that because it isn't DN or FOTNS, it's because it's that compared to the original DB and other Shonen that it inspired. It's even childish compared to its manga counterpart.

Like I said, it's timed right and most of the time it's funny. I've seen up till the end of Thriller Bark and so far everything seems perfectly balanced.

So Goku and Kid Buu biting each other in the middle of a battle for the sake of the universe wasn't in the wrong place? And what you call 'well-timed' is subjective anyway.

Like I said, watch more Shonen, especially if you're going to used One Piece of all things. I can make a list of times when the humor was ill-timed when something serious was going on and most of it involves Luffy and Usopp.

Super compared to the original manga is no more childish than the Buu Saga when there was wacky slapstick layered on top of a demonic bubblegum monster turning people into candy. And the manga for any Shonen is more violent than the anime, come on now.

[fadeddreams5]

Dragon Ball Super is a kid's show. Dragon Ball Z was a kid's show. Hunter x Hunter is a kid's show. Yu Yu Hakusho was a kid's show. Fist of the North Star was a kid's show.

Many shows can be orientated for kids aged 7-15, but still have grit and dark tones. Remember, standards are very different in Japan than they are here. With that said, compared to DBZ, Super has a significantly lighter tone, more censorship, and characters feel like caricatures. They're both for the same audience, but it's clear Super doesn't take the same risks, possibly because its brand is widespread internationally, or maybe it is trying to appeal to the younger end of the spectrum in the age range.

[Nero<>Akira]

this form isn't gonna make GT canon lol stop it.

Nobody was talking about canon, if Super decided to throw out SSJ4 out of nowhere in the show it wouldn't change the fact that both series are non canon.

Thats not a fact. Dragon ball doesn't have a definitive canon. You might think its the 42 volumes but not everyone will agree with that.


Toriyama probably doesn't even know nor does he probably care. Just like with power levels and consistency.


You can say its noncanon to you and no one will fault but its simply a lie to say its a fact.

Considering GT is a sequel and side story to the original adaptations of the manga, it by default makes it non canon. that's how it works. Battle of Gods and F are both officially canon and continue the story in the 10 year gap. The events of Super that happen after the retellings of canon events are a continuation of those official canon stories. I don't really need a chart to show me what's canon when knowing how continuity works as well as what's been said about these stories. Noah uses the weak argument that just because the events that have happened in Super aren't mentioned in the last 2 chapters of the manga, which happen YEARS before the ending, then it doesn't matter and therefore aren't canon. By that logic, any lack of referencing from what's come before in Super never happens in it's own body of stories; same with the manga.

[Noah]

Considering GT is a sequel and side story to the original adaptations of the manga, it by default makes it non canon. that's how it works. Battle of Gods and F are both officially canon and continue the story in the 10 year gap. The events of Super that happen after the retellings of canon events are a continuation of those official canon stories. I don't really need a chart to show me what's canon when knowing how continuity works as well as what's been said about these stories. Noah uses the weak argument that just because the events that have happened in Super aren't mentioned in the last 2 chapters of the manga, which happen YEARS before the ending, then it doesn't matter and therefore aren't canon. By that logic, any lack of referencing from what's come before in Super never happens in it's own body of stories; same with the manga.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but none of the events of Super are mentioned in the original manga, so just as GT is also non canon.

[TheOne]

Dragon Ball Super is a kid's show. Dragon Ball Z was a kid's show. Hunter x Hunter is a kid's show. Yu Yu Hakusho was a kid's show. Fist of the North Star was a kid's show.

Many shows can be orientated for kids aged 7-15, but still have grit and dark tones. Remember, standards are very different in Japan than they are here. With that said, compared to DBZ, Super has a significantly lighter tone, more censorship, and characters feel like caricatures. They're both for the same audience, but it's clear Super doesn't take the same risks, possibly because its brand is widespread internationally, or maybe it is trying to appeal to the younger end of the spectrum in the age range.

All that is relative. There are things in Hunter x hunter and Yu Yu hakusho that I wouldn't want my kids exposed to at certain ages. Heads rolling off, punching holes through people etc. I understand everyone is different but don't assume everyone has the same moral standards.

[hardcorefakes]

Considering GT is a sequel and side story to the original adaptations of the manga, it by default makes it non canon. that's how it works. Battle of Gods and F are both officially canon and continue the story in the 10 year gap. The events of Super that happen after the retellings of canon events are a continuation of those official canon stories. I don't really need a chart to show me what's canon when knowing how continuity works as well as what's been said about these stories. Noah uses the weak argument that just because the events that have happened in Super aren't mentioned in the last 2 chapters of the manga, which happen YEARS before the ending, then it doesn't matter and therefore aren't canon. By that logic, any lack of referencing from what's come before in Super never happens in it's own body of stories; same with the manga.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but none of the events of Super are mentioned in the original manga, so just as GT is also non canon.

I don't know about this logic, it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

The events of Super are occurring before EOZ, them not being mentioned does not contradict anything. Never mind the fact that Super wasn't even a thing in Toriyama's mind when he ended the manga. GT occurs after EOZ, so it couldn't be mentioned in story anyway.

We also get a noncanon depiction of Hell in GT, while we get an official look at it in Super through Frieza (which comes from Toriyama himself). Furthermore, GT contradicts many things happening in Super right now, such as Goku defaulting to SSJ3 in stead of using a god form against Baby, or Vegeta never using SSB against his opponents in GT. And these probably won't be the last contradictions. Again, it hurts more for GT because it happens after the events of Super. Goku going off to train Uub doesn't contradict anything happening in Super so far.

GT is noncanon, while Super, which comes from Toriyama himself (he allows Toyo/Toei creative freedom; he encourages it really), is definitely canon. Or at least it's more "canon" than GT.

[mfwlegend3]

but none of the events of Super are mentioned in the original manga

Toriyama mentioned how, when Super ends, he wants us to look back at EoZ and believe he planned it all from the start; even saying that he would "look cool" in the process. I really wonder what he meant by that other than probably universal memory wipe.

[Boo Machine]

All that is relative. There are things in Hunter x hunter and Yu Yu hakusho that I wouldn't want my kids exposed to at certain ages. Heads rolling off, punching holes through people etc. I understand everyone is different but don't assume everyone has the same moral standards.

I don't think that was really the point. Just that Television standards are different between the West and the East. Something like someone getting a hole punched through their chest is almost unthinkable in a kids cartoon here in the US, but in Japan it's totally cool. But it's still a Kids cartoon because that's what the target demo is. Kids. Most of those series first debut on Shonen jump, a magazine for 7- 15 year olds.

Even now, with how more light hearted Dragonball Super is than it's previous series, It even airs on a Morning Time slot for children, we take that same show and here in the States, it's put in a late night time slot on Adult Swim. We put a kids show on a time slot for adults. Nobody has to show the show to their kids if they find it unsuitable, but that doesn't stop it from being a kids show.

[TheMikado]

Considering GT is a sequel and side story to the original adaptations of the manga, it by default makes it non canon. that's how it works. Battle of Gods and F are both officially canon and continue the story in the 10 year gap. The events of Super that happen after the retellings of canon events are a continuation of those official canon stories. I don't really need a chart to show me what's canon when knowing how continuity works as well as what's been said about these stories. Noah uses the weak argument that just because the events that have happened in Super aren't mentioned in the last 2 chapters of the manga, which happen YEARS before the ending, then it doesn't matter and therefore aren't canon. By that logic, any lack of referencing from what's come before in Super never happens in it's own body of stories; same with the manga.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but none of the events of Super are mentioned in the original manga, so just as GT is also non canon.

I don't know about this logic, it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

The events of Super are occurring before EOZ, them not being mentioned does not contradict anything. Never mind the fact that Super wasn't even a thing in Toriyama's mind when he ended the manga. GT occurs after EOZ, so it couldn't be mentioned in story anyway.

We also get a noncanon depiction of Hell in GT, while we get an official look at it in Super through Frieza (which comes from Toriyama himself). Furthermore, GT contradicts many things happening in Super right now, such as Goku defaulting to SSJ3 in stead of using a god form against Baby, or Vegeta never using SSB against his opponents in GT. And these probably won't be the last contradictions. Again, it hurts more for GT because it happens after the events of Super. Goku going off to train Uub doesn't contradict anything happening in Super so far.

GT is noncanon, while Super, which comes from Toriyama himself (he allows Toyo/Toei creative freedom; he encourages it really), is definitely canon. Or at least it's more "canon" than GT.

Sorry dude, no dice. Super references quite a bit of "non canon" material including things like filler and anime only "non canon" characters, the only canon Super falls into is "Toei" canon which includes the anime, movies, GT, and now Super. It's even included in Toei's official time line. Super is not and never will be part of Toriyamas "canon" it exists as part of "Toei" canon and whatever is part of this is equally "canon".

The false idea that something is "more" canon is ridiculous. Either it is or it isn't and Super is NOT Toriyamas canon it's Toei's.

[Simere]

Toriyama mentioned how, when Super ends, he wants us to look back at EoZ and believe he planned it all from the start; even saying that he would "look cool" in the process. I really wonder what he meant by that other than probably universal memory wipe.

What quote are you referring to?

[hardcorefakes]

Sorry to bust your bubble, but none of the events of Super are mentioned in the original manga, so just as GT is also non canon.

I don't know about this logic, it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

The events of Super are occurring before EOZ, them not being mentioned does not contradict anything. Never mind the fact that Super wasn't even a thing in Toriyama's mind when he ended the manga. GT occurs after EOZ, so it couldn't be mentioned in story anyway.

We also get a noncanon depiction of Hell in GT, while we get an official look at it in Super through Frieza (which comes from Toriyama himself). Furthermore, GT contradicts many things happening in Super right now, such as Goku defaulting to SSJ3 in stead of using a god form against Baby, or Vegeta never using SSB against his opponents in GT. And these probably won't be the last contradictions. Again, it hurts more for GT because it happens after the events of Super. Goku going off to train Uub doesn't contradict anything happening in Super so far.

GT is noncanon, while Super, which comes from Toriyama himself (he allows Toyo/Toei creative freedom; he encourages it really), is definitely canon. Or at least it's more "canon" than GT.

Sorry dude, no dice. Super references quite a bit of "non canon" material including things like filler and anime only "non canon" characters, the only canon Super falls into is "Toei" canon which includes the anime, movies, GT, and now Super. It's even included in Toei's official time line. Super is not and never will be part of Toriyamas "canon" it exists as part of "Toei" canon and whatever is part of this is equally "canon".

The false idea that something is "more" canon is ridiculous. Either it is or it isn't and Super is NOT Toriyamas canon it's Toei's.

The anime references their own non canon filler arcs yes, but no such things occur in the manga. This does not somehow nullify all of Super's canonicity. If you want to treat the anime and manga as two separate canons (since there are major differences between the two), then that's fine.

The original drafts are "canon". Toriyama giving the anime and manga creative liberties does not invalidate his own scripts. He creates Super's plotlines; it doesn't get more "canon" than that. He did no such thing with GT. That's how it's "more" canon than GT.

[FortuneSSJ]

Feels like I'm waiting for episode 104 for a long time!
I'm expecting this one to be one of the best ToP episodes and this is coming from someone that has been loving the Tournament.

[MaskedRider]

Toriyama mentioned how, when Super ends, he wants us to look back at EoZ and believe he planned it all from the start; even saying that he would "look cool" in the process. I really wonder what he meant by that other than probably universal memory wipe.

What quote are you referring to?

I was looking for it myself and found it here
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... b-version/
"Oh, that’s good! People will go “Wow, Toriyama-sensei planned it all out from the beginning!” and I’ll look really cool (laughs)."

I also found the wording of these interviews to be interesting and relevant in other interviews such as
"Toriyama's plot" and "I never thought an artist like you would come along to draw the continuation of my story!"
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... k-version/

Not because it has Toriyama's name on them but referring to HIS plot and HIS story. But then again I'm sure I could find something similar to this with GT in interviews if I looked.

[TheMikado]

I don't know about this logic, it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

The events of Super are occurring before EOZ, them not being mentioned does not contradict anything. Never mind the fact that Super wasn't even a thing in Toriyama's mind when he ended the manga. GT occurs after EOZ, so it couldn't be mentioned in story anyway.

We also get a noncanon depiction of Hell in GT, while we get an official look at it in Super through Frieza (which comes from Toriyama himself). Furthermore, GT contradicts many things happening in Super right now, such as Goku defaulting to SSJ3 in stead of using a god form against Baby, or Vegeta never using SSB against his opponents in GT. And these probably won't be the last contradictions. Again, it hurts more for GT because it happens after the events of Super. Goku going off to train Uub doesn't contradict anything happening in Super so far.

GT is noncanon, while Super, which comes from Toriyama himself (he allows Toyo/Toei creative freedom; he encourages it really), is definitely canon. Or at least it's more "canon" than GT.

Sorry dude, no dice. Super references quite a bit of "non canon" material including things like filler and anime only "non canon" characters, the only canon Super falls into is "Toei" canon which includes the anime, movies, GT, and now Super. It's even included in Toei's official time line. Super is not and never will be part of Toriyamas "canon" it exists as part of "Toei" canon and whatever is part of this is equally "canon".

The false idea that something is "more" canon is ridiculous. Either it is or it isn't and Super is NOT Toriyamas canon it's Toei's.

The anime references their own non canon filler arcs yes, but no such things occur in the manga. This does not somehow nullify all of Super's canonicity. If you want to treat the anime and manga as two separate canons (since there are major differences between the two), then that's fine.

The original drafts are "canon". Toriyama giving the anime and manga creative liberties does not invalidate his own scripts. He creates Super's plotlines; it doesn't get more "canon" than that. He did no such thing with GT. That's how it's "more" canon than GT.

So the copy Vegeta arc was Toriyamas? No it wasn't. It's part of Super which is owned by Toei. There's no changing that. We didn't get the original outlines, we got the Super anime, which IS NOT equal to the Toriyama outlines. Just like GT was based off of both Toriyamas concepts and designs, your claiming that one is more "canon" than the other because it's based on "more" Toriyama stuff but the fact is neither the anime DB/DBZ/ nor Super not GT are considered Toriyamas "canon". You make a point of using GTs hell as evidence of its non canonically standing when the Dragonball Z anime also does the same. By your measure and standards it's also non canon.

Again the only canon these are Toei "canon" unless you want to submit that any contributions Toriyamas makes makes something canon to which case we will include Cooler and Broly as they were designed by Toriyama.

Basically make a clearly defined line and we can stick to it. I look forward to hearing the rules for qualifying something as canon.

[SansrivaaL]

Feels like I'm waiting for episode 104 for a long time!
I'm expecting this one to be one of the best ToP episodes and this is coming from someone that has been loving the Tournament.

Close to my thoughts, and this is coming from someone who hasnt liked this tournament
Why couldnt this had been the 100th ep! SSG making a return woulda been better than what we originally got.

[BlueBasilisk]

Accidentally posted this in the manga thread Putting it where it should have gone.

Someone asked Toshio if Vegeta can use Super Saiyan God in the anime. His response was "I think he can use SSG. I'd like to see SSG on DBS." Toshio must be a big fan of SSG

https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/899011020504547328