"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[ToshioWrites]

This is his last tweet about 17

https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/912716982683762688

He says he is looking forward to his fight and this was 3 months ago so its quite possible this episode was what he was referring to however there is no way to be sure and don't even know if he wrote a future episode about 17 or he is just speaking about an episode that has /will come up. E.G. He said Hit vs Jiren would be a brutal fight and he didn't write that episode so he's in the know even if he doesn't write the episode

[Ki Breaker]

17 has had his opening animation used and helped beat a pretty big threat, that's something which isn't good for a character's future in ToP, realistically he should be out in a few episodes..
He has had his final fight, at least the one which he would have been the most useful in..

[Mercenary]

I don't know if #17 will get another moment to shine, but he was doing pretty well and probably got the beast treatment out of those characters (Krillin, Tien, Roshi, Piccolo, #18). I think it won't be really far-fetched if I hazard to say that #17 got even better treatment than Frieza (especially Frieza) and Gohan.


But it is very likely that #17 will contribute to defeating either Toppo or Dyspo. Most likely Toppo I guess (I don't know if you remember but Toppo insulted him after #17 had interrupted Ribrianne and her besties transformation).


As for Vegeta - it's pretty obvious that he won't defeat Jiren in ep.122 but it's also pretty obvious he won't get eliminated. Not yet. He has to contribute to Jiren's defeat, since I really doubt that Goku alone would be able to handle Jiren, but who knows. He is the John Cena of this show.

[Lapislettuce]

This is his last tweet about 17

https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/912716982683762688

He says he is looking forward to his fight and this was 3 months ago so its quite possible this episode was what he was referring to however there is no way to be sure and don't even know if he wrote a future episode about 17 or he is just speaking about an episode that has /will come up. E.G. He said Hit vs Jiren would be a brutal fight and he didn't write that episode so he's in the know even if he doesn't write the episode

The point i'm trying to make is that he said he was going to write about 17 after he already tweeted he wrote an episode for U3.

[Mercenary]

This is his last tweet about 17

https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/912716982683762688

He says he is looking forward to his fight and this was 3 months ago so its quite possible this episode was what he was referring to however there is no way to be sure and don't even know if he wrote a future episode about 17 or he is just speaking about an episode that has /will come up. E.G. He said Hit vs Jiren would be a brutal fight and he didn't write that episode so he's in the know even if he doesn't write the episode

The point i'm trying to make is that he said he was going to write about 17 after he already tweeted he wrote an episode for U3.

I am sure #17 will contribute to Toppo's or Dyspo's downfall.

[Artorias]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SledDbs/stat ... 1345168384

It being a gut punch doesn't make it a reference.

Nah, don't you know? Everything is reference now. If it even slightly resembles an old move, it's automatically a reference. An uppercut to the stomach? When else have we ever seen something like that in Dragon Ball? Obviously a reference.

So you say mortal level takes strength into account, okay then, why is Universe 7 2nd to the bottom, yet they dominate Universes much higher than them. Hell there is no confirmation whatsoever about mortal level being related to strength.

So why cant their be an unaturally strong mutant in another universe(Frieza)? Or man made androids with the power to destroy planets(and there were)? Or people who went through similar journeys as our protaginsts?

Freeza is an ungodly mutant who was born the strongest mortal in the universe. Goku and Vegeta were personally trained by an angel. Gohan is well Gohan and 17 is a modified human who isn't naturally that strong. Also keep in mind, if the events of Namek never happened, Namek Saga Freeza would still be the strongest mortal in U7 with only Majin Buu surpassing him. Goku and Vegeta would have never gotten as strong as they had if they never met Beerus, which only happened because of Beerus' dream about a Super Saiyan God.

Also, the universes not in the tournament expressed surprised that lower universes could have strong fighters. The Grand Priest more or less said the same thing in 80. So while mortal level may not be directly connect to power level, there seems to be at least an indirect connection.

Frost was stronger than Resurrection 'F' Freeza since his third form could keep up and pushed base form Goku. The same base form that got almost four years of additional training and was stronger than true form Freeza before then. We also had the U3 robots give the base forms Saiyans a hard time when they finally got serious. Moona from U4 overwhelmed Super Saiyan Cabba whose base form was equal to Vegeta during the Champa Saga, the same base form that no sold Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. U2's final pushed created a black hole.

I can go on, but the point is that these universes did have strong fighters who would have smashed U7 into pieces if they didn't have a series of events happened. One of the including time travel that altered the timeline.

HeroR. I think this is the first time we totally agreed on something lol

I think you're all looking at this conversation through the wrong lens to be honest. While what HeroR and TheOne are saying TECHNICALLY makes sense from an in-universe perspective, that doesn't excuse the issue from a writing/narrative perspective. You should not have your main protagonists be this OP and just steamroll almost every threat. Yes, you can reach deep into the lore and craft some sort of defense, but what's the point? It doesn't change the fact that it's stupid from a narrative viewpoint, a flaw of this arc that kills tension and causes that nagging feeling of dragging and boredom that many people feel. Those people might not be able to verbalize exactly why they're getting bored with all of this, but I can. Part of the reason is definitely because the arc feels kinda empty and lacking in any real substantive stakes or drama, which is caused by U7 curb stomping everyone relatively easily with the exception of ONE dude.

So essentially, I don't think your defenses really excuse the fact that Toei should've designed the other universes to put up a real fight. I don't care about how U7 is a bunch of mutants and freaks of nature that got lucky. We should be ignoring that in favor of a good story with tension that forces the heroes to dig deep and desperately struggle.

[Lapislettuce]

This is his last tweet about 17

https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/912716982683762688

He says he is looking forward to his fight and this was 3 months ago so its quite possible this episode was what he was referring to however there is no way to be sure and don't even know if he wrote a future episode about 17 or he is just speaking about an episode that has /will come up. E.G. He said Hit vs Jiren would be a brutal fight and he didn't write that episode so he's in the know even if he doesn't write the episode

The point i'm trying to make is that he said he was going to write about 17 after he already tweeted he wrote an episode for U3.

I am sure #17 will contribute to Toppo's or Dyspo's downfall.

I sure hope so.

[Artorias]

I don't understand when was there "Krillin hype"?

I was never under the impression that Krillin was hyped for anything in the tournament? Is it because he got a recruitment episode?

He had THREE whole episodes entirely dedicated to him about getting his fighting spirit back and all that. He had arguably more hype than anyone. The most episodes anyone else had was 2, both Gohan and 17.

[sintzu]

He had THREE whole episodes entirely dedicated to him about getting his fighting spirit back and all that.

I like what he got but I think he should've lasteda bit longer and go out any other way then by surprise.

If anyone got the short end of the stick it's Tien. He got so little to do and had such a small impact that I don't even think he counts as getting any part of the stick.

[Totamo]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SledDbs/stat ... 1345168384

It being a gut punch doesn't make it a reference.

Nah, don't you know? Everything is reference now. If it even slightly resembles an old move, it's automatically a reference. An uppercut to the stomach? When else have we ever seen something like that in Dragon Ball? Obviously a reference.

Freeza is an ungodly mutant who was born the strongest mortal in the universe. Goku and Vegeta were personally trained by an angel. Gohan is well Gohan and 17 is a modified human who isn't naturally that strong. Also keep in mind, if the events of Namek never happened, Namek Saga Freeza would still be the strongest mortal in U7 with only Majin Buu surpassing him. Goku and Vegeta would have never gotten as strong as they had if they never met Beerus, which only happened because of Beerus' dream about a Super Saiyan God.

Also, the universes not in the tournament expressed surprised that lower universes could have strong fighters. The Grand Priest more or less said the same thing in 80. So while mortal level may not be directly connect to power level, there seems to be at least an indirect connection.

Frost was stronger than Resurrection 'F' Freeza since his third form could keep up and pushed base form Goku. The same base form that got almost four years of additional training and was stronger than true form Freeza before then. We also had the U3 robots give the base forms Saiyans a hard time when they finally got serious. Moona from U4 overwhelmed Super Saiyan Cabba whose base form was equal to Vegeta during the Champa Saga, the same base form that no sold Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. U2's final pushed created a black hole.

I can go on, but the point is that these universes did have strong fighters who would have smashed U7 into pieces if they didn't have a series of events happened. One of the including time travel that altered the timeline.

HeroR. I think this is the first time we totally agreed on something lol

I think you're all looking at this conversation through the wrong lens to be honest. While what HeroR and TheOne are saying TECHNICALLY makes sense from an in-universe perspective, that doesn't excuse the issue from a writing/narrative perspective. You should not have your main protagonists be this OP and just steamroll almost every threat. Yes, you can reach deep into the lore and craft some sort of defense, but what's the point? It doesn't change the fact that it's stupid from a narrative viewpoint, a flaw of this arc that kills tension and causes that nagging feeling of dragging and boredom that many people feel. Those people might not be able to verbalize exactly why they're getting bored with all of this, but I can. Part of the reason is definitely because the arc feels kinda empty and lacking in any real substantive stakes or drama, which is caused by U7 curb stomping everyone relatively easily with the exception of ONE dude.

So essentially, I don't think your defenses really excuse the fact that Toei should've designed the other universes to put up a real fight. I don't care about how U7 is a bunch of mutants and freaks of nature that got lucky. We should be ignoring that in favor of a good story with tension that forces the heroes to dig deep and desperately struggle.

That is extremely incorrect. Fist of the North star's protagonist beat the shit out of everyone he came across. He was insanely OP, yet his story is one of the most beloved shonen ever made as with violence jack. OP protagonists are nothing new and there are people out there who like them as they are a power fantasy which dragon ball is to a lot pf people.


Tension, stakes or drama isn't needed to make a good story, they are plenty out there that don't. All story needs to be good is cohesive and entertaining , anything else is extra. IMO, this arc has only been one of those and not all the time.

[Zamasu55]

I'm 100% sure Toppo will take 17 out next week.

[The gr]

I'm 100% sure Toppo will take 17 out next week.

He better do,U7 have enough points,let the other members of U11 shined.

[Artorias]

It being a gut punch doesn't make it a reference.

Nah, don't you know? Everything is reference now. If it even slightly resembles an old move, it's automatically a reference. An uppercut to the stomach? When else have we ever seen something like that in Dragon Ball? Obviously a reference.

HeroR. I think this is the first time we totally agreed on something lol

I think you're all looking at this conversation through the wrong lens to be honest. While what HeroR and TheOne are saying TECHNICALLY makes sense from an in-universe perspective, that doesn't excuse the issue from a writing/narrative perspective. You should not have your main protagonists be this OP and just steamroll almost every threat. Yes, you can reach deep into the lore and craft some sort of defense, but what's the point? It doesn't change the fact that it's stupid from a narrative viewpoint, a flaw of this arc that kills tension and causes that nagging feeling of dragging and boredom that many people feel. Those people might not be able to verbalize exactly why they're getting bored with all of this, but I can. Part of the reason is definitely because the arc feels kinda empty and lacking in any real substantive stakes or drama, which is caused by U7 curb stomping everyone relatively easily with the exception of ONE dude.

So essentially, I don't think your defenses really excuse the fact that Toei should've designed the other universes to put up a real fight. I don't care about how U7 is a bunch of mutants and freaks of nature that got lucky. We should be ignoring that in favor of a good story with tension that forces the heroes to dig deep and desperately struggle.

That is extremely incorrect. Fist of the North star's protagonist beat the shit out of everyone he came across. He was insanely OP, yet his story is one of the most beloved shonen ever made as with violence jack. OP protagonists are nothing new and there are people out there who like them as they are a power fantasy which dragon ball is to a lot pf people.


Tension, stakes or drama isn't needed to make a good story, they are plenty out there that don't. All story needs to be good is cohesive and entertaining , anything else is extra. IMO, this arc has only been one of those and not all the time.

I've never seen Fist of the North Star, and I've also never seen any story that didn't involve a basic struggle of the main protagonist. You've honestly expressed an opinion that I've legitimately never heard from anyone before, so this is news to me. I can't imagine giving a shit about an action story past the age of 6 if there wasn't any drama or tension, an overbearing obstacle of some sort to overcome.

But Dragon Ball has never been like this anyways. Dragon Ball has always been a story about heroes surpassing their limits and facing seemingly insurmountable odds. The heroes in Dragon Ball and DBZ were always framed as the underdogs, and I firmly believe it should remain that way. I think the series loses a lot of it's appeal when everyone is OP badass all the time. You can be a "power fantasy show" while still framing the plot as being an steep uphill climb.

And I don't mean to insult anyone here, because I could truly be incorrect, but isn't Fist of the North Star thought of by most as a dumb kids show that doesn't really hold up as an adult? I always thought it was in the same category as something like Yugioh, where it's fun as a kid but loses its appeal and just becomes kinda corny and stupid as an adult. So...maybe the REASON for that is because there's no tension or drama to really dig your teeth into once you get past the pretty colors and cool punches?

Again, I don't mean to insult fans of the show, maybe my perception was wrong this whole time.

[Mercenary]

The point i'm trying to make is that he said he was going to write about 17 after he already tweeted he wrote an episode for U3.

I am sure #17 will contribute to Toppo's or Dyspo's downfall.

I sure hope so.

Dyspo - True Golden Frieza should be enough for him, especially when Dyspo was heavily injured by Hit.

Toppo - he is surely SSB tier so Gohan alone won't be enough for him and #17's help is necessary.

[Noah]

I hope the gap between Toppo, Gohan and #17 to be like Raditz, Goku and Piccolo in the beginning of Z. It would just set the stakes higher.

[Lapislettuce]

I am sure #17 will contribute to Toppo's or Dyspo's downfall.

I sure hope so.

Dyspo - True Golden Frieza should be enough for him, especially when Dyspo was heavily injured by Hit.

Toppo - he is surely SSB tier so Gohan alone won't be enough for him and #17's help is necessary.

Exactly 17 and Gohan need to team up against Toppo.

[Nickolaidas]

I don't know if #17 will get another moment to shine, but he was doing pretty well and probably got the beast treatment out of those characters (Krillin, Tien, Roshi, Piccolo, #18). I think it won't be really far-fetched if I hazard to say that #17 got even better treatment than Frieza (especially Frieza) and Gohan.

True. Aside from Goku and Vegeta, no one from the ToP has had a scene which was as awesomesauce as #17's. Frieza is handled pretty damn good, but he has yet to do anything truly epic. I am not diminishing the value of the five-team blast against Anilaza, it was an awesome scene as well, but #17's attack was what took the cake.

So yeah, so far #17 has had the best treatment and has proven to be a key player to the team, especially in the last few episodes. I must admit I never expected that - kudos to the Super team for keep surprising me.

I'm really interested to see what Gohan and Frieza's epic scenes will be, if any. Vegeta is definitely getting his own in the next episode and will no doubt satisfy his fans - he's apparently giving Jiren a run for his money. I'm also very eager to see how Frieza will fare against Dyspo. I was suspecting a one-sided fight, but apparently it's going to be suspenseful.

[Supersaiyanbulla]

Ok, I rewatched SSB Goku vs. Jiren and a few things to note...

Jiren grits his teeth a few times, but only when attacking.

He has a worried face at a Kamehameha, but only because he's clearly in a vulnerable position and he dodges.

I'm comparing it to the preview...and yes, you can definitely see Jiren is actually putting more effort in. Most of the fight with Goku it's a blank, bored expression. When Goku is on the offensive, he's blocking and dodging and clearly doesn't seem phased. Vegeta, you see him gritting his teeth the entire time in this preview.

Not to mention Vegeta still gets a clean hit in the stomach. Goku didn't pull that off at all; he hits Jiren a few times who guarded every hit, clearly he was sand-bagging. In contrast, Jiren gets kicked in the stomach and we see him have a reaction, suggesting he felt some pain

I know it's a preview but the fact is Vegeta pulled off something Goku couldn't based off the preview, suggesting that yes, Vegeta is giving Jiren a harder time than Goku.

[CJStriker_CBR]

The point i'm trying to make is that he said he was going to write about 17 after he already tweeted he wrote an episode for U3.

I am sure #17 will contribute to Toppo's or Dyspo's downfall.

I sure hope so.

Got to say whatever happens in next episode and on Lapislettuce, Android 17 has up to this point had an Excellent showing in this Arc, maybe one of the Best comebacks of a classic character I have seen in sometime in most any long-running series!

The last episode alone had more key good for 17, loved the moment when he was the center of the Group in the final showdown and the moment where he goes Full Epic on U3 speaks for itself!

Congratz Lapislettuce my friend, IMO 17 has had an Impressive and Epic showing, IMO he is one of the Major Power players now in U7.

Hope he has been shown to your liking as well up to this point Lapislettuce.

[ToshioWrites]

If they could write supremely strong fighters in u6,7 and 11 and create a way for u3 to become a threat via Aniraza, why would it be so hard to put high level fighters in the other 4 universes? Those universes were blank slates meaning Toriyama/Toyo/Toyotaro could have done whatever they wanted and given simple explanations.

For example:

The kamikaze fireballs could have been Helles Proteges + magical girl references and boom that's why they are god level fighters

It's not difficult to come up with reasons for other universes to have fighters that are not total weaklings relative to u7