"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Omniboy]

As far as we can tell, no. Nothing stating Vegeta also has that power-up. Yeah, it would seem Trunks somehow "improved" his Super Saiyan 2 and pulled that power-up, but then, why didn't Goku, Gohan or Vegeta do that too? If Super Saiyan 2 can have that power-up and if one of them had used it in Majin Buu saga, we would not need Super Saiyan 3 (we really didn't need it) at all. Events would even have different outcomes.

Well for Goku, we don't know why he got ssj 3 and we also don't know whether he was aware of how strong it SSJ 2 could become. We don't know if he got SSJ 3 by accident and decided to focus to improve upon it imperfections, ignoring SSJ 2. Or there could be the case that his SSJ 2 form didn't improve enough so he decided to try to see if he could gain a new form. In order for us to know why Goku's SSJ 2 form didn't get that far we have to know how he got SSJ 3... which isn't given to us.

As for Gohan he didn't train at all (or at the least minimally) for the past 7 years so he couldn't improve anything.

As for Vegeta... he's Vegeta

[HeroR]

As far as we can tell, no. Nothing stating Vegeta also has that power-up. Yeah, it would seem Trunks somehow "improved" his Super Saiyan 2 and pulled that power-up, but then, why didn't Goku, Gohan or Vegeta do that too? If Super Saiyan 2 can have that power-up and if one of them had used it in Majin Buu saga, we would not need Super Saiyan 3 (we really didn't need it) at all. Events would even have different outcomes.

Well for Goku, we don't know why he got ssj 3 and we also don't know whether he was aware of how strong it SSJ 2 could become. We don't know if he got SSJ 3 by accident and decided to focus to improve upon it imperfections, ignoring SSJ 2. Or there could be the case that his SSJ 2 form didn't improve enough so he decided to try to see if he could gain a new form. In order for us to know why Goku's SSJ 2 form didn't get that far we have to know how he got SSJ 3... which isn't given to us.

As for Gohan he didn't train at all (or at the least minimally) for the past 7 years so he couldn't improve anything.

As for Vegeta... he's Vegeta

Goku is the same person who created Mastered Super Saiyan after calling the bulky Super Saiyan forms a drain. So why would he used Super Saiyan 3 if he can just power up Super Saiyan 2 to the same level? And him not knowing make little sense, especially compared to Trunks who didn’t realized the failings of Ultra Super Saiyan.

[TheSaiyanGod]

As far as we can tell, no. Nothing stating Vegeta also has that power-up. Yeah, it would seem Trunks somehow "improved" his Super Saiyan 2 and pulled that power-up, but then, why didn't Goku, Gohan or Vegeta do that too? If Super Saiyan 2 can have that power-up and if one of them had used it in Majin Buu saga, we would not need Super Saiyan 3 (we really didn't need it) at all. Events would even have different outcomes.

Well for Goku, we don't know why he got ssj 3 and we also don't know whether he was aware of how strong it SSJ 2 could become. We don't know if he got SSJ 3 by accident and decided to focus to improve upon it imperfections, ignoring SSJ 2. Or there could be the case that his SSJ 2 form didn't improve enough so he decided to try to see if he could gain a new form. In order for us to know why Goku's SSJ 2 form didn't get that far we have to know how he got SSJ 3... which isn't given to us.

As for Gohan he didn't train at all (or at the least minimally) for the past 7 years so he couldn't improve anything.

As for Vegeta... he's Vegeta

Goku is the same person who created Mastered Super Saiyan after calling the bulky Super Saiyan forms a drain. So why would he used Super Saiyan 3 if he can just power up Super Saiyan 2 to the same level? And him not knowing make little sense, especially compared to Trunks who didn’t realized the failings of Ultra Super Saiyan.

As Trunks himself says, he never focused on the power these transformations gave. So he did not look for new levels like SSJ3 (like Goku), but in improving his SSJ2. And the result of this was that in 10 years of training he got a much more powerful SSJ2 than we know, but still less than Goku's SSJ3. There's no mistake there.

When did Goku have a chance to observed Vegeta's fight and fight himself in 122?

He didn't awakening anything. He got a boost because his pride was hurt. It's no different than a rage boost.

Goku not only had the chance, as he saw with his own eyes Vegeta deflecting from Jiren's attacks (and was surprised).
Vegeta saw Jiren's attacks in the same way as Goku, watching Jiren attack his companion. The difference is that Goku could not read the movements of Jiren

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Well, Piccolo himself says that he awakened a dormant power within him ... a power that surprised even Vermoud. If it was just a boost rage, Piccolo would have said.

Goku never attacked Jiren again after Vegeta read his movements. So that’s kinda assumption that he can’t.

Piccolo said Vegeta powered up because his pride was hurt. Hence ‘pride boost’.

Anyway, Vegeta got a power boost in the end. And considering that power was enough to scare Goku and Vermoud, then it's okay to assume that he overcame SSB Goku, since previously he was on the same level as Goku himself (without Kaioken)

[HeroR]

Well for Goku, we don't know why he got ssj 3 and we also don't know whether he was aware of how strong it SSJ 2 could become. We don't know if he got SSJ 3 by accident and decided to focus to improve upon it imperfections, ignoring SSJ 2. Or there could be the case that his SSJ 2 form didn't improve enough so he decided to try to see if he could gain a new form. In order for us to know why Goku's SSJ 2 form didn't get that far we have to know how he got SSJ 3... which isn't given to us.

As for Gohan he didn't train at all (or at the least minimally) for the past 7 years so he couldn't improve anything.

As for Vegeta... he's Vegeta

Goku is the same person who created Mastered Super Saiyan after calling the bulky Super Saiyan forms a drain. So why would he used Super Saiyan 3 if he can just power up Super Saiyan 2 to the same level? And him not knowing make little sense, especially compared to Trunks who didn’t realized the failings of Ultra Super Saiyan.

As Trunks himself says, he never focused on the power these transformations gave. So he did not look for new levels like SSJ3 (like Goku), but in improving his SSJ2. And the result of this was that in 10 years of training he got a much more powerful SSJ2 than we know, but still less than Goku's SSJ3. There's no mistake there.

Goku not only had the chance, as he saw with his own eyes Vegeta deflecting from Jiren's attacks (and was surprised).
Vegeta saw Jiren's attacks in the same way as Goku, watching Jiren attack his companion. The difference is that Goku could not read the movements of Jiren

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Well, Piccolo himself says that he awakened a dormant power within him ... a power that surprised even Vermoud. If it was just a boost rage, Piccolo would have said.

Goku never attacked Jiren again after Vegeta read his movements. So that’s kinda assumption that he can’t.

Piccolo said Vegeta powered up because his pride was hurt. Hence ‘pride boost’.

Anyway, Vegeta got a power boost in the end. And considering that power was enough to scare Goku and Vermoud, then it's okay to assume that he overcame SSB Goku, since previously he was on the same level as Goku himself (without Kaioken)

And Goku didn’t do the same thing despite doing it with Super Saiyan because? Especially when Goku did it when looking for a level beyond Super Saiyan and then changed his mind, deciding to perfect Super Saiyan.

He got temp boost because his ego was damaged. And Goku was more surprised than scared and Vermoud was shocked that Vegeta’s sudden power boost.

And none of this points to Vegeta being stronger than Frieza if your argument is based on Vegeta’s pride boost.

[Omniboy]

Goku is the same person who created Mastered Super Saiyan after calling the bulky Super Saiyan forms a drain. So why would he used Super Saiyan 3 if he can just power up Super Saiyan 2 to the same level? And him not knowing make little sense, especially compared to Trunks who didn’t realized the failings of Ultra Super Saiyan.

But USSJ has more drawbacks than just stamina drain. It slows down it's user completely to the point, that even if the user outshines his opponent in strength, he can still lose, making it completely useless. SSJ 3 has no drawback like that and is not completely useless. And like I said, we don't if Goku's SSJ 2 form hit a brick wall.

[HeroR]

Goku is the same person who created Mastered Super Saiyan after calling the bulky Super Saiyan forms a drain. So why would he used Super Saiyan 3 if he can just power up Super Saiyan 2 to the same level? And him not knowing make little sense, especially compared to Trunks who didn’t realized the failings of Ultra Super Saiyan.

But USSJ has more drawbacks than just stamina drain. It slows down it's user completely to the point, that even if the user outshines his opponent in strength, he can still lose, making it completely useless. SSJ 3 has no drawback like that and is not completely useless. And like I said, we don't if Goku's SSJ 2 form hit a brick wall.

The version that Vegeta was using against Cell had no speed decrease and Goku still chose not to used it because it drained stamina.

And why would Goku’s Super Saiyan 2 Hit a brick wall while Trunks’ didn’t?

[BlueBasilisk]

Putting together all the information we have, I'm going to hazard a guess that Frieza extends his 'offer' to Dyspo to distract him and keep him off guard so Gohan can sneak in and flank him while he's talking. I'm suspicious whether or not that tidbit is a load of beans, but if it's not, that's about the only way I can see it playing out.

I'm also gonna guess that 17 is still in it despite Gohan's botch in 123. Toppo is conspicuously MIA and surely he's not standing around twiddling his mustache while the others fight.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku is the same person who created Mastered Super Saiyan after calling the bulky Super Saiyan forms a drain. So why would he used Super Saiyan 3 if he can just power up Super Saiyan 2 to the same level? And him not knowing make little sense, especially compared to Trunks who didn’t realized the failings of Ultra Super Saiyan.

As Trunks himself says, he never focused on the power these transformations gave. So he did not look for new levels like SSJ3 (like Goku), but in improving his SSJ2. And the result of this was that in 10 years of training he got a much more powerful SSJ2 than we know, but still less than Goku's SSJ3. There's no mistake there.

Goku never attacked Jiren again after Vegeta read his movements. So that’s kinda assumption that he can’t.

Piccolo said Vegeta powered up because his pride was hurt. Hence ‘pride boost’.

Anyway, Vegeta got a power boost in the end. And considering that power was enough to scare Goku and Vermoud, then it's okay to assume that he overcame SSB Goku, since previously he was on the same level as Goku himself (without Kaioken)

And Goku didn’t do the same thing despite doing it with Super Saiyan because? Especially when Goku did it when looking for a level beyond Super Saiyan and then changed his mind, deciding to perfect Super Saiyan.

He got temp boost because his ego was damaged. And Goku was more surprised than scared and Vermoud was shocked that Vegeta’s sudden power boost.

And none of this points to Vegeta being stronger than Frieza if your argument is based on Vegeta’s pride boost.

Probably, after discovering the SSJ3, Goku simply gave up trying to dominate the SSJ2, since it had a much stronger transformation.

Trunks did not seek new transformations, he only improved what he already had, the SSJ2. And even training for 10 years, his SSJ2 did not reach Goku's SSJ3 level (I do not understand why this is bad)

And how does none of that indicate that Vegeta SSB> Golden Freeza?

Before the Pride boost, we know that SSB Vegeta = SSB Goku = Golden Freeza.

After pride boost, which surprised even vermoud and Goku, it is normal to imagine that SSB Vegeta> SSB Goku = Golden Freeza. After all, Vegeta got much stronger

[Omniboy]

The version that Vegeta was using against Cell had no speed decrease and Goku still chose not to used it because it drained stamina.

And why would Goku’s Super Saiyan 2 Hit a brick wall while Trunks’ didn’t?

You mean Super Vegeta? I'm pretty sure that does give a speed boost and has no stamina drain. It was only Trunks USSJ that slowed down movement and drained stamina. I don't recall there being a stamina drain for Vegeta's form. Goku's Mssj allows him greater control of it, allowing him to use it in a relax state, but nothing about stamina.

As far as Trunks goes he is a hybrid.

[HeroR]

Probably, after discovering the SSJ3, Goku simply gave up trying to dominate the SSJ2, since it had a much stronger transformation.

Trunks did not seek new transformations, he only improved what he already had, the SSJ2. And even training for 10 years, his SSJ2 did not reach Goku's SSJ3 level (I do not understand why this is bad)

And how does none of that indicate that Vegeta SSB> Golden Freeza?

Before the Pride boost, we know that SSB Vegeta = SSB Goku = Golden Freeza.

After pride boost, which surprised even vermoud and Goku, it is normal to imagine that SSB Vegeta> SSB Goku = Golden Freeza. After all, Vegeta got much stronger

Why? That isn’t like Goku at all who took the time to mastered Super Saiyan when that was his original goal. So why would he just give up on Super Saiyan 2?

Again, Trunks is the same one who pushed Ultra Super Saiyan, yet he masters something Goku never did despite him doing it with Super Saiyan. It doesn’t fit either of their characters.

You’re using a pride boost and not his nature strength. It’s no different than a rage boost, which is a burst of power not substained.

The version that Vegeta was using against Cell had no speed decrease and Goku still chose not to used it because it drained stamina.

And why would Goku’s Super Saiyan 2 Hit a brick wall while Trunks’ didn’t?

You mean Super Vegeta? I'm pretty sure that does give a speed boost and has no stamina drain. It was only Trunks USSJ that slowed down movement and drained stamina. I don't recall there being a stamina drain for Vegeta's form. Goku's Mssj allows him greater control of it, allowing him to use it in a relax state, but nothing about stamina.

As far as Trunks goes he is a hybrid.

It still drains stamina as Goku noted, which is why he has never used it and chose to master Super Saiyan is they wouldn’t drain as much stamina.

Being a hybrid had nothing to do with better control of the Super Saiyan forms.

[Omniboy]

It still drains stamina as Goku noted, which is why he has never used it and chose to master Super Saiyan is they wouldn’t drain as much stamina.

Being a hybrid had nothing to do with better control of the Super Saiyan forms.

I going to check more to see about the stamina drain.

Hybrids may not have better control for super saiyan forms, but they do have far higher potential for raw strength and power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Probably, after discovering the SSJ3, Goku simply gave up trying to dominate the SSJ2, since it had a much stronger transformation.

Trunks did not seek new transformations, he only improved what he already had, the SSJ2. And even training for 10 years, his SSJ2 did not reach Goku's SSJ3 level (I do not understand why this is bad)

And how does none of that indicate that Vegeta SSB> Golden Freeza?

Before the Pride boost, we know that SSB Vegeta = SSB Goku = Golden Freeza.

After pride boost, which surprised even vermoud and Goku, it is normal to imagine that SSB Vegeta> SSB Goku = Golden Freeza. After all, Vegeta got much stronger

Why? That isn’t like Goku at all who took the time to mastered Super Saiyan when that was his original goal. So why would he just give up on Super Saiyan 2?

Again, Trunks is the same one who pushed Ultra Super Saiyan, yet he masters something Goku never did despite him doing it with Super Saiyan. It doesn’t fit either of their characters.

You’re using a pride boost and not his nature strength. It’s no different than a rage boost, which is a burst of power not substained.

Why would Goku try to dominate SSJ2 if he had another transformation much stronger?

In the case of SSJ Dai San Dankai (grade 3), Goku realized that the technique had a weakness, which was to leave the user very slow, and so it would be useless in battles. That was Goku's reason for trying to dominate the SSJ.

The SSJ3 despite spending a lot of energy, did not have this weakness, on the contrary, was far superior to SSJ2 in all aspects.
The fact that he attempted to master SSJ in a specific situation does not mean that he would try to do this with all his transformations, instead of trying to reach new levels.

Even 4 years after the Boo Saga, Goku in the BoG was not able to master the SSJ3.

Trunks made a mistake in the Cell saga, but that does not mean he has to commit again. He probably searched the SSJ2 after seeing that Gohan had reached that level, but after that, he only focused on improving that form rather than looking for other transformations.

And the pride boost has awakened a confined power in Vegeta, so yeah, that's your own strength and not just something like a rage boost.

[HeroR]

Why would Goku try to dominate SSJ2 if he had another transformation much stronger?

In the case of SSJ Dai San Dankai (grade 3), Goku realized that the technique had a weakness, which was to leave the user very slow, and so it would be useless in battles. That was Goku's reason for trying to dominate the SSJ.

The SSJ3 despite spending a lot of energy, did not have this weakness, on the contrary, was far superior to SSJ2 in all aspects.
The fact that he attempted to master SSJ in a specific situation does not mean that he would try to do this with all his transformations, instead of trying to reach new levels.

Even 4 years after the Boo Saga, Goku in the BoG was not able to master the SSJ3.

Trunks made a mistake in the Cell saga, but that does not mean he has to commit again. He probably searched the SSJ2 after seeing that Gohan had reached that level, but after that, he only focused on improving that form rather than looking for other transformations.

And the pride boost has awakened a confined power in Vegeta, so yeah, that's your own strength and not just something like a rage boost.

Why wouldn’t he if he can make Super Saiyan 2 almost as strong as Super Saiyan 3 with none of the stamina issues. That’s why he didn’t used Vegeta’s bulky Super Saiyan form in the Cell Games.

We’re talking about Super Vegeta’s form that didn’t have the speed drawback. It was just an energy drain.

Far superior, except it drains energy so fast that it left Goku helpless against Kid Buu.

Again, why?

Improving the form to the point he almost made it four times stronger. Yeah....

Temp boost like the My Bulma slap.

[Green]

Thinking about it, Trunks improving SS2 does make sense: he failed once seeking out a new form and saw that mastering what he already had (Super Saiyan) was much more efficient, he didn't make the same mistake again.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Why would Goku try to dominate SSJ2 if he had another transformation much stronger?

In the case of SSJ Dai San Dankai (grade 3), Goku realized that the technique had a weakness, which was to leave the user very slow, and so it would be useless in battles. That was Goku's reason for trying to dominate the SSJ.

The SSJ3 despite spending a lot of energy, did not have this weakness, on the contrary, was far superior to SSJ2 in all aspects.
The fact that he attempted to master SSJ in a specific situation does not mean that he would try to do this with all his transformations, instead of trying to reach new levels.

Even 4 years after the Boo Saga, Goku in the BoG was not able to master the SSJ3.

Trunks made a mistake in the Cell saga, but that does not mean he has to commit again. He probably searched the SSJ2 after seeing that Gohan had reached that level, but after that, he only focused on improving that form rather than looking for other transformations.

And the pride boost has awakened a confined power in Vegeta, so yeah, that's your own strength and not just something like a rage boost.

Why wouldn’t he if he can make Super Saiyan 2 almost as strong as Super Saiyan 3 with none of the stamina issues. That’s why he didn’t used Vegeta’s bulky Super Saiyan form in the Cell Games.

We’re talking about Super Vegeta’s form that didn’t have the speed drawback. It was just an energy drain.

Far superior, except it drains energy so fast that it left Goku helpless against Kid Buu.

Again, why?

Improving the form to the point he almost made it four times stronger. Yeah....

Temp boost like the My Bulma slap.

Trunks needed to train 10 years to make his SSJ2 just come close to the power of Goku SSJ3. And yet, as we have seen, he was still weaker, so I do not know what the problem is here. He did not make the same mistake again, and instead of looking for more powerful SSJs (which could have spent even more energy), he sought to improve his SSJ2, and it took a lot of time for that (he says he trained every day as if his life depended on it ... for 10 years, then, yes, he needed a lot and did not even reach the level of SSJ3).

No, if it was a temp rage boost, Piccolo would not say that Vegeta's wounded pride aroused a dormant power within him, he would say that Vegeta had grown stronger from the rage (which did not happen)

So if Vegeta awakened a dormant power within him, then that was his own power

[HeroR]

Trunks needed to train 10 years to make his SSJ2 just come close to the power of Goku SSJ3. And yet, as we have seen, he was still weaker, so I do not know what the problem is here. He did not make the same mistake again, and instead of looking for more powerful SSJs (which could have spent even more energy), he sought to improve his SSJ2, and it took a lot of time for that (he says he trained every day as if his life depended on it ... for 10 years, then, yes, he needed a lot and did not even reach the level of SSJ3).

No, if it was a temp rage boost, Piccolo would not say that Vegeta's wounded pride aroused a dormant power within him, he would say that Vegeta had grown stronger from the rage (which did not happen)

So if Vegeta awakened a dormant power within him, then that was his own power

And? How long did Goku have Super Saiyan 2 by the start of Super? And that still doesn’t change that he got closed to Goku with just Super Saiyan 2 while Goku had Super Saiyan 3.

How do you figure he kept the power of having his ego hurt? And it was say Vegeta surpassed Goku in Battle of Gods over his rage boost, and that was temporary.

[Xaroc]

About Gokuu using SSJ3 all the time instead of improving SSJ2: he was dead when he discovered it and that means he never had any stamina/energy/ki consumption troubles at all then. That's why he was surprised, that he lost power even after Vegeta bought him a minute fighting against Boo, to gather his ki. I think he discovered SSJ3 when he was dead, without knowing about the draw backs for a living person and thought: "Hey, free form." So why bother with something less? On the other hand, Trunks was alive all the time (minus some minutes/hours when Cell killed him and got revived by Shenlong), so he probably just couldn't reach SSJ3, because of the energy consumption, even if he had known about it. So he trained as usual. At least that's what I think. No proof of course.

[HeroR]

About Gokuu using SSJ3 all the time instead of improving SSJ2: he was dead when he discovered it and that means he never had any stamina/energy/ki consumption troubles at all then. That's why he was surprised, that he lost power even after Vegeta bought him a minute fighting against Boo, to gather his ki. I think he discovered SSJ3 when he was dead, without knowing about the draw backs for a living person and thought: "Hey, free form." So why bother with something less? On the other hand, Trunks was alive all the time (minus some minutes/hours when Cell killed him and got revived by Shenlong), so he probably just couldn't reach SSJ3, because of the energy consumption, even if he had known about it. So he trained as usual. At least that's what I think. No proof of course.

So why didn't he improved Super Saiyan 2 when he came back to life for four years before Beerus?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Trunks needed to train 10 years to make his SSJ2 just come close to the power of Goku SSJ3. And yet, as we have seen, he was still weaker, so I do not know what the problem is here. He did not make the same mistake again, and instead of looking for more powerful SSJs (which could have spent even more energy), he sought to improve his SSJ2, and it took a lot of time for that (he says he trained every day as if his life depended on it ... for 10 years, then, yes, he needed a lot and did not even reach the level of SSJ3).

No, if it was a temp rage boost, Piccolo would not say that Vegeta's wounded pride aroused a dormant power within him, he would say that Vegeta had grown stronger from the rage (which did not happen)

So if Vegeta awakened a dormant power within him, then that was his own power

And? How long did Goku have Super Saiyan 2 by the start of Super? And that still doesn’t change that he got closed to Goku with just Super Saiyan 2 while Goku had Super Saiyan 3.

How do you figure he kept the power of having his ego hurt? And it was say Vegeta surpassed Goku in Battle of Gods over his rage boost, and that was temporary.

Why would Goku want to train hard for years to make the power of his SSJ2 just come close to SSJ3? Since it already has the SSJ3 transformation itself?
It's the same as wanting Goku to master SSJ3 while he has much more powerful transformations like SSG and SSB.

Trunks needed to train for 10 years to get close to the power of an SSJ3, does not make sense Goku seek to do the same being that he already has the SSJ3 himself.

We all saw in the BoG that Vegeta got stronger through anger.
On EP 122, the conclusion that the fandom would arrive is that he also became more stronger through the rage, but Piccolo himself says something different, that he awakened a power confined within him (thanks to his wounded pride)

[HeroR]

Why would Goku want to train hard for years to make the power of his SSJ2 just come close to SSJ3? Since it already has the SSJ3 transformation itself?
It's the same as wanting Goku to master SSJ3 while he has much more powerful transformations like SSG and SSB.

Trunks needed to train for 10 years to get close to the power of an SSJ3, does not make sense Goku seek to do the same being that he already has the SSJ3 himself.

We all saw in the BoG that Vegeta got stronger through anger.
On EP 122, the conclusion that the fandom would arrive is that he also became more stronger through the rage, but Piccolo himself says something different, that he awakened a power confined within him (thanks to his wounded pride)

Why wouldn't Goku train to make his Super Saiyan 2 form stronger if it is energy efficient than Super Saiyan 3? Especially when that is the reason why he never used 'Super Vegeta's' form. And why wouldn't Goku try to master Super Saiyan 3 in the four years before he knew the god forms even existed?

You're not explaining why Goku did try to mastered Super Saiyan 2 or even Super Saiyan 3 in the years after the Buu Saga before Battle of Gods. All you're going is saying 'it took Trunks this many years'.

All Piccolo said was that Vegeta got a power-up because his pride got wounded. It's no different than when a Saiyan's power jump because they got angry, which has always been temporary unless they transformed. You're the one taking Piccolo's wound as if he broke some new boundary that makes his power permeant.