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The Dragonball cashcow has never been fatterOLKv3 wrote:I HIGHLY doubt we're getting a new DB series any time soon. Especially in 2020 lmao.
No, there is legitimate criticism of the show that is true. Its inconsistent characterization, it not living up to the expectations that itself lies down or poor powerscaling.alakazam^ wrote:You said that there's no pleasing everyone and then you say that if a minority is complaining, that should be addressed? This sounds really biased against Super. Super isn't a bad product by default, no matter what people might try to make you believe. It has issues just like everything else (and the past series, of course) but the evidence we have is that the majority is pleased with it, not the contrary.Rebel Instinct wrote:Even if the discontent is not a majority, if it is large enough, then there's surely something amiss in one way or another. As the old adage goes, "There's no smoke without fire." The sheer sustained volume of criticism that Dragon Ball Super has received over its run is indicative of some severe underlying issues. Trying to shift the blame onto the fans themselves is disingenuous and gives Super too much leeway as a product.
The "sheer sustained volume of criticism" comes from just some fans, a vocal minority. Why should their opinion have any weight if most of them show they aren't even critically thinking about what they are complaining? The majority of complaints come from fans being ignorant about how an anime is put together, misunderstandings (from what the show is telling them, synopses, etc), knee-jerk reactions and just poor reasoning all around. So yes, the fans are responsible by how they conduct themselves and it just seems there are many of them complaining because that minority keeps parroting eachother over and over again.
The anime is aimed at children but I didn't think the adult fanbase would play the part so seriously.
I strongly agree with pretty much everything you said. Most of the issues that occur are universal issues throughout the fandom. Half the time it doesn’t even feel as if the people working on the series are actual fans. Super comes across as a side project series. Something they didn’t put all their energy into perfecting.Rebel Instinct wrote:Normally, I'm not the type to post cheap meme responses, but I couldn't help but be reminded of this one.Guesswhoo wrote:I'm sad about DBS ending but seeing the current state of the DB fanbase, I think it is for the best, and to this day I still think that DBS failing in the eyes of many is mainly related to the audience and fanbase. I think that every decision made by DBS was followed by a large wave of undeserved criticism (on Youtube or other platform) and the writer didn't know what to do to make fan happy anymore:
-Give 2nd and 3rd party character some shining moment ? ---> "They overstay their welcome", "Power level are bullshit, they should be one shotted", "where is Goku or Vegeta", "Goku or Vegeta should have One shot these enemies instead of wasting time of other character , another proof of DBS s*** writing",...
-Return the focus to Goku and Vegeta ? ---> " Here we go again, the Goku and Vegeta show !", "The reason why I hate DBS is because it doesn't give other character their time to shine", ...
-Making reference to the OG DB ? ---> "That is so unoriginal", "Those s** are just copy pasted on DBZ, so laaame", ...
There are many more to tell but my point is that a serie is destined to fail when its fan desperately want the serie to appeal to what they think DB is (Is it a just a show about dumb fighting or comedy gold or dumb transformation ?) or when they want it to be a modern anime with Dragon Ball name on it.
With that set of mind, we cannot see the true purpose of the show or what the show want to be and instead focusing on what we want the show to be next. That is one of the reason why so many sequel or remake fail. I don't tell them to like the show because it has a purpose, I want them to consider what the show wanted to be and respecting that before throwing their preference instead of the usual anime critics for beginner package AKA " bad writing, no deep meaning, no edgy, no badass, not MADHOUSE/ Bones, no dark story, no social symbolism, no deep life lesson like LifU is WhAt yu wAnt it tU Be...".
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances ... -wrong.jpg
Why should people take DBS's writing at face value and accept its decisions in a vacuum? The most common complaints aren't really a case of fans wanting Super to live up to the standards set by modern anime either, it's largely the sense that it doesn't quite measure up to the standards set by its predecessors. The Dragon Ball series laid out a decades long foundation and Super was expected to maintain that foundation. The series may want to do its own thing, but it should still be beholden to the rules of it's predecessors unless it provides ample justification for diverging from them. Unless you intend to reboot a series entirely or otherwise go back to square one, you have to build off of what came before and not undermine the parameters set by its foundation. This is the concept of narrative consistency and it's a standard by which media is routinely judged.
This notion that a sequel should not be judged by the bar set by it's predecessors, but rather by what it attempts to do on its own, is flawed. Respecting what a series is attempting to do is one thing and taking a series in a fresh new direction can be a commendable choice, but when continuing off of a well established foundation (let alone one as iconic as Dragon Ball) with it's own rules, mechanics, sensibilities and balances, you have to respect that if you want to maintain its integrity going forward and any radical changes have to be given a solid in-universe reason for the shift in dynamic.
Not everyone wants the same thing or has the same expectations for what makes a series good - this is a given. The idea of an "unpleasable fanbase" is nonsense. A "fanbase" is not a singular entity that can be appeased. By definition, there is no media in existence that can please everybody. Someone will always be disappointed. What should be taken into consideration is the degree of discontent that arises from a decision and what that means for the series. Even if the discontent is not a majority, if it is large enough, then there's surely something amiss in one way or another. As the old adage goes, "There's no smoke without fire." The sheer sustained volume of criticism that Dragon Ball Super has received over its run is indicative of some severe underlying issues. Trying to shift the blame onto the fans themselves is disingenuous and gives Super too much leeway as a product.
Many of Super's biggest criticisms are universally shared by a large number of people and many who love the series as it is still acknowledge these shortcomings despite not being personally turned off by them. This should prove that it's not just people being unreasonable over nothing, it's a sign of legitimate problems with the series. GT is an example where the decisions made caused the community at large to turn against it. Should one disregard the issues people had with GT and instead blame them for not accepting it for what it tried to do? No. While more severe than the reaction to Super, obviously the series had some real problems that instigated the reception it got. I say this as someone who actually unironically enjoyed GT. Super has some glaring issues and outside of a handful of exaggerated claims and nitpicks, I feel like the criticism it has received thus far has been almost entirely deserved.
If it was universal, we wouldn't be having fanwars every week.TheOtherDude wrote:I strongly agree with pretty much everything you said. Most of the issues that occur are universal issues throughout the fandom. Half the time it doesn’t even feel as if the people working on the series are actual fans. Super comes across as a side project series. Something they didn’t put all their energy into perfecting.Rebel Instinct wrote:Normally, I'm not the type to post cheap meme responses, but I couldn't help but be reminded of this one.Guesswhoo wrote:I'm sad about DBS ending but seeing the current state of the DB fanbase, I think it is for the best, and to this day I still think that DBS failing in the eyes of many is mainly related to the audience and fanbase. I think that every decision made by DBS was followed by a large wave of undeserved criticism (on Youtube or other platform) and the writer didn't know what to do to make fan happy anymore:
-Give 2nd and 3rd party character some shining moment ? ---> "They overstay their welcome", "Power level are bullshit, they should be one shotted", "where is Goku or Vegeta", "Goku or Vegeta should have One shot these enemies instead of wasting time of other character , another proof of DBS s*** writing",...
-Return the focus to Goku and Vegeta ? ---> " Here we go again, the Goku and Vegeta show !", "The reason why I hate DBS is because it doesn't give other character their time to shine", ...
-Making reference to the OG DB ? ---> "That is so unoriginal", "Those s** are just copy pasted on DBZ, so laaame", ...
There are many more to tell but my point is that a serie is destined to fail when its fan desperately want the serie to appeal to what they think DB is (Is it a just a show about dumb fighting or comedy gold or dumb transformation ?) or when they want it to be a modern anime with Dragon Ball name on it.
With that set of mind, we cannot see the true purpose of the show or what the show want to be and instead focusing on what we want the show to be next. That is one of the reason why so many sequel or remake fail. I don't tell them to like the show because it has a purpose, I want them to consider what the show wanted to be and respecting that before throwing their preference instead of the usual anime critics for beginner package AKA " bad writing, no deep meaning, no edgy, no badass, not MADHOUSE/ Bones, no dark story, no social symbolism, no deep life lesson like LifU is WhAt yu wAnt it tU Be...".
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances ... -wrong.jpg
Why should people take DBS's writing at face value and accept its decisions in a vacuum? The most common complaints aren't really a case of fans wanting Super to live up to the standards set by modern anime either, it's largely the sense that it doesn't quite measure up to the standards set by its predecessors. The Dragon Ball series laid out a decades long foundation and Super was expected to maintain that foundation. The series may want to do its own thing, but it should still be beholden to the rules of it's predecessors unless it provides ample justification for diverging from them. Unless you intend to reboot a series entirely or otherwise go back to square one, you have to build off of what came before and not undermine the parameters set by its foundation. This is the concept of narrative consistency and it's a standard by which media is routinely judged.
This notion that a sequel should not be judged by the bar set by it's predecessors, but rather by what it attempts to do on its own, is flawed. Respecting what a series is attempting to do is one thing and taking a series in a fresh new direction can be a commendable choice, but when continuing off of a well established foundation (let alone one as iconic as Dragon Ball) with it's own rules, mechanics, sensibilities and balances, you have to respect that if you want to maintain its integrity going forward and any radical changes have to be given a solid in-universe reason for the shift in dynamic.
Not everyone wants the same thing or has the same expectations for what makes a series good - this is a given. The idea of an "unpleasable fanbase" is nonsense. A "fanbase" is not a singular entity that can be appeased. By definition, there is no media in existence that can please everybody. Someone will always be disappointed. What should be taken into consideration is the degree of discontent that arises from a decision and what that means for the series. Even if the discontent is not a majority, if it is large enough, then there's surely something amiss in one way or another. As the old adage goes, "There's no smoke without fire." The sheer sustained volume of criticism that Dragon Ball Super has received over its run is indicative of some severe underlying issues. Trying to shift the blame onto the fans themselves is disingenuous and gives Super too much leeway as a product.
Many of Super's biggest criticisms are universally shared by a large number of people and many who love the series as it is still acknowledge these shortcomings despite not being personally turned off by them. This should prove that it's not just people being unreasonable over nothing, it's a sign of legitimate problems with the series. GT is an example where the decisions made caused the community at large to turn against it. Should one disregard the issues people had with GT and instead blame them for not accepting it for what it tried to do? No. While more severe than the reaction to Super, obviously the series had some real problems that instigated the reception it got. I say this as someone who actually unironically enjoyed GT. Super has some glaring issues and outside of a handful of exaggerated claims and nitpicks, I feel like the criticism it has received thus far has been almost entirely deserved.
He also said that he didnt plan for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus for a long time in 2016 iirc, and now in 2018 Goku has completely surpassed Beerus.jeffbr92 wrote:I agree, but would Toriyama bold enough to against he said before about not wanting to write a story after that because the cast was too old?precita wrote:The series can only continue if they move to EOZ
He didn't specify any time period.perucho1990 wrote:He also said that he didnt plan for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus for a long time in 2016 iirc, and now in 2018 Goku has completely surpassed Beerus.
That looks so much like the ToP ring I find it hard to believe it isn't a coincidence, though I also find it hard to believe they would base the ring off that rug... lolHawk9211 wrote:Coincidence or not?Look at the rug.
Oh thanks for the info manLiquir wrote:No episode this week.Tokyo Marathon is being broadcast on FujiTV.jeffbr92 wrote:No new episode today?
https://twitter.com/Terez27/status/954370550016638977
Only possibility is we get week-long Preview Images like we did with Episode 122, tho with uncertainty of it happening.
To clarify my comment about "unpleasable fanbases", My intention wasn't to say that they don't exist. They actually very much do exist. Rather, what I meant was that since every sequel/prequel/interquel alienates some portion of the community in some way, all fanbases are, by technicality, never entirely pleasable. Since no fandom is ever totally satisfied, this makes the label of "unpleasable" kind of redundant. A bit pedantic I suppose, but using the term "unpleasable fanbase" also typically carries demeaning generalizing connotations.Guesswhoo wrote:snip
If I understood your point correctly here, then I think we are in agreement on this - with one caveat. With the community as badly split up as it is, I feel that this is indicative of underlying issues with the series itself rather than fans setting their standards too high. I wouldn't place blame on the fans themselves for having such diametrically opposed opinions on the series. Instead, I feel like the notion of Super not entirely living up to the expectations set up by it's predecessors has weight to it. If it were indeed as faithful to the mechanics of Z as one should expect it to be, I feel like the divisions wouldn't be nearly as stark. There would naturally be the typical amount of people unhappy with it, but the fighting and arguing would be much less pronounced. The community would be a much more calm and pleasant place to be.Guesswhoo wrote:when the fanbase become a broken one and each of the piece gets a non negligible part of support
What I meant by my statements regarding pleasing people and considering complaints is this: There is no piece of media which can make everyone happy. There will always be disappointed consumers. However, if the amount of backlash is larger than what is typically expected on average, then it's probably worth being taken into consideration. Normally, there isn't enough backlash to significantly splinter a community or cause the amount of community infighting to rise. This isn't coming from a place of bias against Super as a whole, since I actually quite enjoy the manga interpretation of the series. My point is that the effect that Super has had on the Dragon Ball community is no small commotion to be easily dismissed.alakazam^ wrote:You said that there's no pleasing everyone and then you say that if a minority is complaining, that should be addressed? This sounds really biased against Super. Super isn't a bad product by default, no matter what people might try to make you believe. It has issues just like everything else (and the past series, of course) but the evidence we have is that the majority is pleased with it, not the contrary.Rebel Instinct wrote:Even if the discontent is not a majority, if it is large enough, then there's surely something amiss in one way or another. As the old adage goes, "There's no smoke without fire." The sheer sustained volume of criticism that Dragon Ball Super has received over its run is indicative of some severe underlying issues. Trying to shift the blame onto the fans themselves is disingenuous and gives Super too much leeway as a product.
The "sheer sustained volume of criticism" comes from just some fans, a vocal minority. Why should their opinion have any weight if most of them show they aren't even critically thinking about what they are complaining? The majority of complaints come from fans being ignorant about how an anime is put together, misunderstandings (from what the show is telling them, synopses, etc), knee-jerk reactions and just poor reasoning all around. So yes, the fans are responsible by how they conduct themselves and it just seems there are many of them complaining because that minority keeps parroting eachother over and over again.
The anime is aimed at children but I didn't think the adult fanbase would play the part so seriously.
Making intentionally insulting remarks like this accomplishes nothing but stirring up anger and resentment. It's unnecessary and only makes things worse.alakazam^ wrote:The anime is aimed at children but I didn't think the adult fanbase would play the part so seriously.
Despite some of the divides in the fandom, you mean to tell me there’s not a single thing most people agree upon as far as criticism? I think everyone ultimately just wants In Universe consistency and quality animation. And for that to happen, you’d need everyone all on the same page when it comes to the series. Putting amateur animators on the biggest cash grab series you have was not a smart idea. Letting Toei take too much artistic liberties in a 20+ year old series in a series that had a specific foundation set was not a smart idea. They allowed too much wiggle room for Toei instead of having a manga counterpart to follow.Totamo wrote:If it was universal, we wouldn't be having fanwars every week.TheOtherDude wrote:I strongly agree with pretty much everything you said. Most of the issues that occur are universal issues throughout the fandom. Half the time it doesn’t even feel as if the people working on the series are actual fans. Super comes across as a side project series. Something they didn’t put all their energy into perfecting.Rebel Instinct wrote:
Normally, I'm not the type to post cheap meme responses, but I couldn't help but be reminded of this one.
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances ... -wrong.jpg
Why should people take DBS's writing at face value and accept its decisions in a vacuum? The most common complaints aren't really a case of fans wanting Super to live up to the standards set by modern anime either, it's largely the sense that it doesn't quite measure up to the standards set by its predecessors. The Dragon Ball series laid out a decades long foundation and Super was expected to maintain that foundation. The series may want to do its own thing, but it should still be beholden to the rules of it's predecessors unless it provides ample justification for diverging from them. Unless you intend to reboot a series entirely or otherwise go back to square one, you have to build off of what came before and not undermine the parameters set by its foundation. This is the concept of narrative consistency and it's a standard by which media is routinely judged.
This notion that a sequel should not be judged by the bar set by it's predecessors, but rather by what it attempts to do on its own, is flawed. Respecting what a series is attempting to do is one thing and taking a series in a fresh new direction can be a commendable choice, but when continuing off of a well established foundation (let alone one as iconic as Dragon Ball) with it's own rules, mechanics, sensibilities and balances, you have to respect that if you want to maintain its integrity going forward and any radical changes have to be given a solid in-universe reason for the shift in dynamic.
Not everyone wants the same thing or has the same expectations for what makes a series good - this is a given. The idea of an "unpleasable fanbase" is nonsense. A "fanbase" is not a singular entity that can be appeased. By definition, there is no media in existence that can please everybody. Someone will always be disappointed. What should be taken into consideration is the degree of discontent that arises from a decision and what that means for the series. Even if the discontent is not a majority, if it is large enough, then there's surely something amiss in one way or another. As the old adage goes, "There's no smoke without fire." The sheer sustained volume of criticism that Dragon Ball Super has received over its run is indicative of some severe underlying issues. Trying to shift the blame onto the fans themselves is disingenuous and gives Super too much leeway as a product.
Many of Super's biggest criticisms are universally shared by a large number of people and many who love the series as it is still acknowledge these shortcomings despite not being personally turned off by them. This should prove that it's not just people being unreasonable over nothing, it's a sign of legitimate problems with the series. GT is an example where the decisions made caused the community at large to turn against it. Should one disregard the issues people had with GT and instead blame them for not accepting it for what it tried to do? No. While more severe than the reaction to Super, obviously the series had some real problems that instigated the reception it got. I say this as someone who actually unironically enjoyed GT. Super has some glaring issues and outside of a handful of exaggerated claims and nitpicks, I feel like the criticism it has received thus far has been almost entirely deserved.
Super is polarizing, my friend. Thats the opposite of universal.
If you know people would defend it than how is it universal?TheOtherDude wrote:Despite some of the divides in the fandom, you mean to tell me there’s not a single thing most people agree upon as far as criticism? I think everyone ultimately just wants In Universe consistency and quality animation. And for that to happen, you’d need everyone all on the same page when it comes to the series. Putting amateur animators on the biggest cash grab series you have was not a smart idea. Letting Toei take too much artistic liberties in a 20+ year old series in a series that had a specific foundation set was not a smart idea. They allowed too much wiggle room for Toei instead of having a manga counterpart to follow.Totamo wrote:If it was universal, we wouldn't be having fanwars every week.TheOtherDude wrote:
I strongly agree with pretty much everything you said. Most of the issues that occur are universal issues throughout the fandom. Half the time it doesn’t even feel as if the people working on the series are actual fans. Super comes across as a side project series. Something they didn’t put all their energy into perfecting.
Super is polarizing, my friend. Thats the opposite of universal.
You can’t forget that some of us have watched the entire dragon ball series countless times before Super appeared. There were certain things that couldn’t happen and could happen. Just a quick example. When watching dragon ball and Z back to back, you could easily assess that chiaotzu and Roshi were way too far behind to ever catch up to the rest of the Z fighters after king piccolo, raditz, Ginyu Force etc. The gaps got larger and larger. You knew certain characters wouldn’t stand a chance against other characters. Now with the introduction of Super, Roshi is somehow able to make Tien look like a chump, even though he surpassed him in dragon ball. Half the fandom says it’s BS that Roshi gets this treatment. The other half says it’s perfectly fine since he was apparently “training” this entire time. You can’t reduce this by saying “it was all head cannon”.
It’s stuff like this that frustrate people who want a more accurate follow up with Z and others are okay with whatever you put in front of them. If they said Roshi was actually part saiyan, I guarantee you some people would come up with all kinds of reasons why it was obvious he was.
Can this statement just die. The person who said that comment on amatuer animators isn't even in Toei, much less on Super.TheOtherDude wrote:Despite some of the divides in the fandom, you mean to tell me there’s not a single thing most people agree upon as far as criticism? I think everyone ultimately just wants In Universe consistency and quality animation. And for that to happen, you’d need everyone all on the same page when it comes to the series. Putting amateur animators on the biggest cash grab series you have was not a smart idea. Letting Toei take too much artistic liberties in a 20+ year old series in a series that had a specific foundation set was not a smart idea.Totamo wrote:If it was universal, we wouldn't be having fanwars every week.TheOtherDude wrote:
I strongly agree with pretty much everything you said. Most of the issues that occur are universal issues throughout the fandom. Half the time it doesn’t even feel as if the people working on the series are actual fans. Super comes across as a side project series. Something they didn’t put all their energy into perfecting.
Super is polarizing, my friend. Thats the opposite of universal.
I doubt you are going to get that. Toriyama is 62.ToshioWrites wrote:Whenever the next series starts. I hope Toriyama either goes all in or backs off completely . None of this outline crap he’s doing that relies on Toyo and Toei to fill in tons of blanks.
Then he should step away and let Toei/Toyo do it without him. We can hope they learned from their mistakes from GT/AF. I hope soTotamo wrote:I doubt you are going to get that. Toriyama is 62.ToshioWrites wrote:Whenever the next series starts. I hope Toriyama either goes all in or backs off completely . None of this outline crap he’s doing that relies on Toyo and Toei to fill in tons of blanks.
That's plenty young enough to write a story.Totamo wrote:I doubt you are going to get that. Toriyama is 62.ToshioWrites wrote:Whenever the next series starts. I hope Toriyama either goes all in or backs off completely . None of this outline crap he’s doing that relies on Toyo and Toei to fill in tons of blanks.
You compared GT to AF...ToshioWrites wrote:Then he should step away and let Toei/Toyo do it without him. We can hope they learned from their mistakes from GT/AF. I hope soTotamo wrote:I doubt you are going to get that. Toriyama is 62.ToshioWrites wrote:Whenever the next series starts. I hope Toriyama either goes all in or backs off completely . None of this outline crap he’s doing that relies on Toyo and Toei to fill in tons of blanks.
