"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

There's no reason to doubt Beerus at all. He's a God with millions of years, with an attendant who's even wiser and didn't contradicted him. Even when Trunks and Bulma told them their concerns.
Trunks doesn't know about the Mafuba, Goku and Vegeta going with them is already the back up plan. Since it was the original plan.
The characters aren't being idiots, it's arguable they could've stopped and discussed their options a bit longer. It still doesn't undermine anything.

Beerus is also a temperamental idiot who's been known to lie to people just to get what he wants, and what he wants in this case is to have this whole situation over and done with. He wouldn't be so insistent on being right if he didn't see this whole situation as a bother. Trunks, however, being an experienced time traveler should know that Beerus' statements don't make a lick of sense as it would completely alter everything if Zamasu was dead before any of his plan could come to fruition.

Plus, what kind of back up plan are Goku and Vegeta? They aren't any stronger than they were before and Zamasu & Black can kill all three of them if they want to, I'd say Trunks asking them "Hey! You guys know anything that can stop an immortal by any chance?" sounds like a lot better back up plan than "Let's bring the two idiots who got their asses kicked last time for another round!".

We already know that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a peaceful transformation, so Trunks getting it from being angry wouldn't make sense and would be an asspull. Speaking of which, an asspull is when something happens unexpectedly with no real explanation. Since rage boosts have been part of the series since Z and Trunks got one from Bulma being slapped, it wouldn't fit the definition of an asspull.

I won't comment about the time travel stuff as that's a point I actually feel deserves being given a chance to explain itself, the power related shit does not. For one, Black and whatever Zamasu is with him is no immediate threat to the present timeline, meaning Vegeta and Trunks have as much time as they need to train so Trunks can get Blue. Since his power already rivals that of SS2 Goku post-absorption, he should be able to get Blue a LOT faster than Vegeta, especially since they can bribe Whis to help train Trunks in the Earths ROSAT. Trunks not doing this when he's been shown as a far more pragmatic character than most of the others makes him look like a total moron.

Or he can just do the ritual and get God ki that way, if Trunks has enough potential to attain Goku's SS2 power level post God ki absorption with nothing warranting such an increase, he can absorb God ki like Goku just fine.

Vegeta getting a boost from Bulma getting slapped was horseshit back when BoG came out and it remains as such now that we're on the cusp of going into 2017. Vegeta had several noteworthy instances where he could have gotten a rage boost but never did, he didn't get one when Goku pissed him off in their first fight, he didn't get one against Reccoome or Freeza or 18 or Cell or Goku or Boo or aaaaannnnnyyyyyyyyoooooonneeeee! Neither did Trunks, the only character who was established to get rage boosts is Gohan, hell, the Android & Boo arcs constantly talk about this ability of his as something exclusively beneficial to him than no one else has.[/quote]

[Khin]

Black is a product of Goku angering Zamasu. And Zamasu was angered because Goku came to fight him after Trunks returned to the past. And Trunks returned to the past... because Black exists. This makes no fucking sense. It won't make any fucking sense, because a time paradox in ANY story, not just Dragon Ball, is a huge detriment to the plot structure. That's why parallel timelines exist as a concept in the first place, to avoid shit like this.

You can still argue that Black got triggered by seeing the Goku vs. Hit fight on Godtube, I guess.

What leaked image?

A leaked image from episode 62 where a seemingly pupil-less Trunks punched Black.

[HeroR]

We already know that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a peaceful transformation, so Trunks getting it from being angry wouldn't make sense and would be an asspull. Speaking of which, an asspull is when something happens unexpectedly with no real explanation. Since rage boosts have been part of the series since Z and Trunks got one from Bulma being slapped, it wouldn't fit the definition of an asspull.

Nobody said anything about Trunks getting Blue through a rage boost. You can get Blue through the ritual and through training, Trunks could have gotten it either way given the amount of time he spent doing absolutely nothing in the present besides moping around, if they actually intended to give him the transformation from the start.

A rage boost isn't an asspull. TRUNKS getting a rage boost IS an asspull, because rage boosts were exclusive to Gohan and Trunks never got one when he has been in situations 10x worse than this one. Vegeta getting a rage boost from Bulma getting slapped is also an asspull and a poorly written moment, so I don't know why you're using it to defend your point.

As for the whole time paradox, since the Time Rings don't work the same way as Trunks' time machine, I don't see why they would follow the same rules as the time machine. The rules of time travel in Dragon Ball were completely based on Trunks' time travel. Even then, the rules were that you can't change the past without creating a new world, which is still true. However, if you changed the past, but then someone goes into the future from that changed world, you don't create a new world. It doesn't goes against anything that was set in the Android/Cell Saga. Only that you can alter the future, most likely because the future isn't set in stone, and if you have Time Rings, you can screw over other timelines' future. But as of now, we don't know what happened.

It completely contradicts pre-established time travel. Black is a product of Goku angering Zamasu. And Zamasu was angered because Goku came to fight him after Trunks returned to the past. And Trunks returned to the past... because Black exists. This makes no fucking sense. It won't make any fucking sense, because a time paradox in ANY story, not just Dragon Ball, is a huge detriment to the plot structure. That's why parallel timelines exist as a concept in the first place, to avoid shit like this.

,

You get Super Saiyan God through the ritual, not Blue. Also, even Vegeta had to train for closed to a year with Whis to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Vegeta may be able to help Trunks if they went in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, but Vegeta is no Whis. And he did train in the present, we saw it. He didn't just mop. He first did image training and then trained with Vegeta.

Trunks getting a rage boost wouldn't really be an asspull given that Vegeta got one despite it never happening before. So, it really isn't an asspull anymore since if Vegeta can get one, why not his son Trunks who has been through far more crap than Vegeta. You can complain about Vegeta, but it is what it is, so Trunks' rage boost isn't an asspull since the series has already created that history.

The 'pre-established time travel' was all based on Trunks' exploits, which was trying to changed the past. Nothing was said about changing the future, other time traveling methods, or switching between timelines. You can't say that this goes against something when the entire premised was based on one person's experience who didn't know what the heck they were doing in the first place because Trunks originally thought/hope changing the past would help his future.

[FortuneSSJ]

Super for 2017 definitely looks like it is now:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

They didn't even bother to show Gohan on the promo... Surely, he must have pissed Toei staff and thus his treatment in ROF arc.

[LightBing]

There's no reason to doubt Beerus at all. He's a God with millions of years, with an attendant who's even wiser and didn't contradicted him. Even when Trunks and Bulma told them their concerns.
Trunks doesn't know about the Mafuba, Goku and Vegeta going with them is already the back up plan. Since it was the original plan.
The characters aren't being idiots, it's arguable they could've stopped and discussed their options a bit longer. It still doesn't undermine anything.

Beerus is also a temperamental idiot who's been known to lie to people just to get what he wants, and what he wants in this case is to have this whole situation over and done with. He wouldn't be so insistent on being right if he didn't see this whole situation as a bother. Trunks, however, being an experienced time traveler should know that Beerus' statements don't make a lick of sense as it would completely alter everything if Zamasu was dead before any of his plan could come to fruition.

Plus, what kind of back up plan are Goku and Vegeta? They aren't any stronger than they were before and Zamasu & Black can kill all three of them if they want to, I'd say Trunks asking them "Hey! You guys know anything that can stop an immortal by any chance?" sounds like a lot better back up plan than "Let's bring the two idiots who got their asses kicked last time for another round!".

How would lying help him get the situation finished? While putting at risk his two playthings. All Trunks knew about time-travel he confronted Beerus about. He's no experienced time-traveller. He just presses a button in the machine and that's it. If anyone is an expert it's Future Bulma and even then she likely doesn't understand it completely and would have no idea in regards to the Gods influence in it.
If the Gods have invisible Ki, why can't they influence all the timelines? Beerus said their way of thinking as "human logic" and said I'm a God that's the difference.
Beerus was insistent because they were doubting him and he was getting annoyed.

They're the backup plan, because that's the best he has. He had to confirm Beerus words, they couldn't just linger around. Goku is the only guy who could even come up with the Mafuba and due to it's limited impact in his life, many years ago. It's normal he forgot about it.

[Marlowe89]

God forms became a joke when Vegeta completely bypassed the entire process Goku went through and achieved a comparable level of strength just with a few months of training under Whis. This is definitely not a world (or rather level of power) that one would describe as beyond Goku's imagination as it was in the movies.

Goku's statement still technically holds true though. He said it was beyond his imagination at a point in time when he didn't know how or even IF there was a way to tap into God ki on his own at all (without the ritual), meaning that by comparison any form utilizing regular ki would have seriously paled in comparison to the god forms. Vegeta obtaining it through training under Whis doesn't really contradict this because the training merely involved learning how to use a different type of ki; if Vegeta had kept training without ever learning how to use God ki, he would never have reached the same level of power as Super Saiyan Blue.

The idea of Super Saiyan 2 Trunks being able to compete on that level is admittedly pretty absurd though. I've usually chalked it up to Black being caught off-guard or not taking Trunks seriously, which I still think is true to some degree.

[HeroR]

God forms became a joke when Vegeta completely bypassed the entire process Goku went through and achieved a comparable level of strength just with a few months of training under Whis. This is definitely not a world (or rather level of power) that one would describe as beyond Goku's imagination as it was in the movies.

Goku's statement still technically holds true though. He said it was beyond his imagination at a point in time when he didn't know how to tap into God ki on his own at all, meaning that by comparison any form utilizing regular ki would have seriously paled in comparison to the god forms. Vegeta obtaining it through training under Whis doesn't really contradict this because the training was actually quite simple in the sense that Vegeta only needed to learn how to use a different type of ki.

The idea of Super Saiyan 2 Trunks being able to compete on that level IS admittedly absurd though. I've usually chalked it up to Black being caught off-guard or not taking Trunks seriously, which I still think is true to some degree.

I think Black's problem is that he never seems to take Trunks seriously. I mean, people thought Black was only slightly stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks because Black took a punch to the gut and didn't one-shot Trunks in Episode 48. Then we learned that he's as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku who one-shotted Trunks effortlessly. And even the flashback of Episode 51, Black took down Super Saiyan 2 Trunks with just few hits.

As for god ki, I wouldn't say it was easy for Vegeta because it was also a world he couldn't reach by himself. Whis even said that Vegeta would never surpass Goku at the rate he was going. Whis had to help Vegeta reached god ki, even if it was the long way, since it was a world that Vegeta couldn't reach without help, unlike every form of Super Saiyan he got on his own.

God ki is also not a joke since we're over 60 episodes in and no one except Goku and Vegeta has god ki.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Yeah really didn't like how they pandered around Vegeta getting SSGSS. I would have preferred if they left it like the movie instead of giving us a non-explanation explanation.

Vegeta shouldn't have gotten it in the first place which is why he and his fans should feel very lucky.

[Marlowe89]

As for god ki, I wouldn't say it was easy for Vegeta because it was also a world he couldn't reach by himself. Whis even said that Vegeta would never surpass Goku at the rate he was going. Whis had to help Vegeta reached god ki, even if it was the long way, since it was a world that Vegeta couldn't reach without help, unlike every form of Super Saiyan he got on his own.

That's more or less my overall point. If Vegeta never decided to train under Whis, he would never have reached that realm of power even if he trained on his own for several decades. The implication is that using regular ki with Super Saiyan and its higher forms simply would never have put them on the same level as themselves using God ki with Super Saiyan, so Goku's declaration of it being beyond his imagination at the time still holds up if you analyze the context of his statement - as far as he knew, he was only capable of using the non-God variety of ki.

[ekrolo2]

God forms became a joke when Vegeta completely bypassed the entire process Goku went through and achieved a comparable level of strength just with a few months of training under Whis. This is definitely not a world (or rather level of power) that one would describe as beyond Goku's imagination as it was in the movies.

Goku's statement still technically holds true though. He said it was beyond his imagination at a point in time when he didn't know how to tap into God ki on his own at all, meaning that by comparison any form utilizing regular ki would have seriously paled in comparison to the god forms. Vegeta obtaining it through training under Whis doesn't really contradict this because the training was actually quite simple in the sense that Vegeta only needed to learn how to use a different type of ki.

The idea of Super Saiyan 2 Trunks being able to compete on that level IS admittedly absurd though. I've usually chalked it up to Black being caught off-guard or not taking Trunks seriously, which I still think is true to some degree.

I think Black's problem is that he never seems to take Trunks seriously. I mean, people thought Black was only slightly stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks because Black took a punch to the gut and didn't one-shot Trunks in Episode 48. Then we learned that he's as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku who one-shotted Trunks effortlessly. And even the flashback of Episode 51, Black took down Super Saiyan 2 Trunks with just few hits.

As for god ki, I wouldn't say it was easy for Vegeta because it was also a world he couldn't reach by himself. Whis even said that Vegeta would never surpass Goku at the rate he was going. Whis had to help Vegeta reached god ki, even if it was the long way, since it was a world that Vegeta couldn't reach without help, unlike every form of Super Saiyan he got on his own.

God ki is also not a joke since we're over 60 episodes in and no one except Goku and Vegeta has god ki.

Trunks blocked an energy sword slice meant to kill Goku and Zamasu was shown to be able to fight Blue Goku evenly until Black got back into the fight. He is NOT going easy on Trunks by any stretch of the imagination, episode 57 clearly shows that these four are all roughly comparable in power to one another. That's the only way that 2 vs 2 fight can work because I REALLY doubt Black would instantaneously power down from an attack meant to kill Goku so Trunks can block it, cause you know, he doesn't want to hurt Trunks' feelings.

The fact Vegeta even gets it through training diminishes its value, especially since Whis' training basically amounts to carrying around heavy shit and doing chores around the house that's on the level of Master Roshi's training regiment. Also, EVERY Saiyan can get God ki as long as they just all hold hands for the ritual and fight afterward. If Trunks, Goten, Gohan and Future Trunks are all strong enough to get as good as they are, they can get God Ki the same as Goku did.

[TheMikado]

Yeah really didn't like how they pandered around Vegeta getting SSGSS. I would have preferred if they left it like the movie instead of giving us a non-explanation explanation.

Vegeta shouldn't have gotten it in the first place which is why he and his fans should feel very lucky.

This is the aspect that pisses me off the most, Vegeta didn't spend his time training to SSJ3 like Goku. He decided to chill and deal with his family. So for Vegeta to chase after Goku again in the form of Whis training over a supposedly one time temporary transformation is annoying as hell. SSGSSJ would be a hell of a lot more interesting if the color were unique to the user, say Goku got blue and Vegeta got red or something.

[Marlowe89]

Trunks blocked an energy sword slice meant to kill Goku and Zamasu was shown to be able to fight Blue Goku evenly until Black got back into the fight. He is NOT going easy on Trunks by any stretch of the imagination, episode 57 clearly shows that these four are all roughly comparable in power to one another. That's the only way that 2 vs 2 fight can work because I REALLY doubt Black would instantaneously power down from an attack meant to kill Goku so Trunks can block it, cause you know, he doesn't want to hurt Trunks' feelings.

The problem is that you're assuming Black intended to kill Goku at all. I'm pretty sure even after that battle he specifically implies that he was keeping Goku alive in order to become even stronger.

Therefore, Trunks being able to block it isn't TOO unbelievable if Black wasn't even entirely serious in his skirmish with Goku, although I'll admit it may require some suspension of disbelief since he was squaring off with SSB Goku in particular.

The fact Vegeta even gets it through training diminishes its value, especially since Whis' training basically amounts to carrying around heavy shit and doing chores around the house that's on the level of Master Roshi's training regiment.

The chore scenes weren't a part of the God ki training. We were already given glimpses of the actual God ki training in Episode 20 and again in Episode 22.

[HeroR]

Yeah really didn't like how they pandered around Vegeta getting SSGSS. I would have preferred if they left it like the movie instead of giving us a non-explanation explanation.

Vegeta shouldn't have gotten it in the first place which is why he and his fans should feel very lucky.

The movie gave us a non-answer. In fact, it never bothered to answer at all. Only that Vegeta got God ki somehow. We were only left assuming he did the ritual off-screen.

[ekrolo2]

Trunks blocked an energy sword slice meant to kill Goku and Zamasu was shown to be able to fight Blue Goku evenly until Black got back into the fight. He is NOT going easy on Trunks by any stretch of the imagination, episode 57 clearly shows that these four are all roughly comparable in power to one another. That's the only way that 2 vs 2 fight can work because I REALLY doubt Black would instantaneously power down from an attack meant to kill Goku so Trunks can block it, cause you know, he doesn't want to hurt Trunks' feelings.

The problem is that you're assuming Black intended to kill Goku at all. I'm pretty sure even after that battle he specifically implies that he was keeping Goku alive in order to become even stronger.

Therefore, Trunks being able to block it isn't TOO unbelievable if Black wasn't even entirely serious in his skirmish with Goku, although I'll admit it may require some suspension of disbelief since he was squaring off with SSB Goku in particular.

Black had no problems about murdering Goku and Trunks at the end of the very same episode until Vegeta interfered. Plus, the blow was intended for Goku, so even if you argue that he wasn't trying specifically to kill him but simply seriously hurt him, Trunks HAS to be close in power to Goku and conversely Black to block an attack of such level. Black wouldn't just randomly decide to power down because Trunks is in his way all of a sudden.

Before this, Zamasu takes on Goku evenly for a little while, managing to pressure him then Trunks fights this same Zamasu equally, these guys are roughly the same strength level as one another.

[HeroR]

Trunks blocked an energy sword slice meant to kill Goku and Zamasu was shown to be able to fight Blue Goku evenly until Black got back into the fight. He is NOT going easy on Trunks by any stretch of the imagination, episode 57 clearly shows that these four are all roughly comparable in power to one another. That's the only way that 2 vs 2 fight can work because I REALLY doubt Black would instantaneously power down from an attack meant to kill Goku so Trunks can block it, cause you know, he doesn't want to hurt Trunks' feelings.

The problem is that you're assuming Black intended to kill Goku at all. I'm pretty sure even after that battle he specifically implies that he was keeping Goku alive in order to become even stronger.

Therefore, Trunks being able to block it isn't TOO unbelievable if Black wasn't even entirely serious in his skirmish with Goku, although I'll admit it may require some suspension of disbelief since he was squaring off with SSB Goku in particular.

The fact Vegeta even gets it through training diminishes its value, especially since Whis' training basically amounts to carrying around heavy shit and doing chores around the house that's on the level of Master Roshi's training regiment.

The chore scenes weren't a part of the God ki training. We were already given glimpses of the actual God ki training in Episode 20 and again in Episode 22.

The training with Whis was purposely vague. And I'm surprise people forget that the chores wasn't part of the training, since that was the punchline when Vegeta tells Goku that all those dangerous and tedious chores they doing were just common house work.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

A leaked image from episode 62 where a seemingly pupil-less Trunks punched Black.

Where did that come from? Is it legit?

[ekrolo2]

The training with Whis was purposely vague. And I'm surprise people forget that the chores wasn't part of the training, since that was the punchline when Vegeta tells Goku that all those dangerous and tedious chores they doing were just common house work.

It was purposefully vague but not in a good way because they don't really keep it vague: they just make it house work for the stuff we see then have Vegeta say "The REAL stuff comes later AKA off-screen!" during the weight lifting scene. The F movie was the right way to go: if you can't come up with a good enough way to visualize how fantastically hard as balls the training is, skip it and leave it up to interpretation instead of this weird half-measure thing that says the housework is the mundane shit but the REAL training happens off-screen anyway.

And before you say "Well the movie doesn't show us how Vegeta got God ki!" yeah, so what? We don't see how Vegeta gets literally any of his prior forms or most of them if you want to count that anime-exclusive scene. I don't see anyone flipping shit over that.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Goku's statement still technically holds true though. He said it was beyond his imagination at a point in time when he didn't know how to tap into God ki on his own at all, meaning that by comparison any form utilizing regular ki would have seriously paled in comparison to the god forms. Vegeta obtaining it through training under Whis doesn't really contradict this because the training was actually quite simple in the sense that Vegeta only needed to learn how to use a different type of ki.

The idea of Super Saiyan 2 Trunks being able to compete on that level IS admittedly absurd though. I've usually chalked it up to Black being caught off-guard or not taking Trunks seriously, which I still think is true to some degree.

I think Black's problem is that he never seems to take Trunks seriously. I mean, people thought Black was only slightly stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks because Black took a punch to the gut and didn't one-shot Trunks in Episode 48. Then we learned that he's as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku who one-shotted Trunks effortlessly. And even the flashback of Episode 51, Black took down Super Saiyan 2 Trunks with just few hits.

As for god ki, I wouldn't say it was easy for Vegeta because it was also a world he couldn't reach by himself. Whis even said that Vegeta would never surpass Goku at the rate he was going. Whis had to help Vegeta reached god ki, even if it was the long way, since it was a world that Vegeta couldn't reach without help, unlike every form of Super Saiyan he got on his own.

God ki is also not a joke since we're over 60 episodes in and no one except Goku and Vegeta has god ki.

Trunks blocked an energy sword slice meant to kill Goku and Zamasu was shown to be able to fight Blue Goku evenly until Black got back into the fight. He is NOT going easy on Trunks by any stretch of the imagination, episode 57 clearly shows that these four are all roughly comparable in power to one another. That's the only way that 2 vs 2 fight can work because I REALLY doubt Black would instantaneously power down from an attack meant to kill Goku so Trunks can block it, cause you know, he doesn't want to hurt Trunks' feelings.

The fact Vegeta even gets it through training diminishes its value, especially since Whis' training basically amounts to carrying around heavy shit and doing chores around the house that's on the level of Master Roshi's training regiment. Also, EVERY Saiyan can get God ki as long as they just all hold hands for the ritual and fight afterward. If Trunks, Goten, Gohan and Future Trunks are all strong enough to get as good as they are, they can get God Ki the same as Goku did.

He caught the slice from the sides where there is less cutting power much like a sword.

[ekrolo2]

He caught the slice from the sides where there is less cutting power much like a sword.

Yeah and getting punched right in the face isn't the same as getting smacked in it yet that'll kill just the same in Dragon Ball. It doesn't make sense if Trunks isn't of a comparable power level to Black & Goku, unless you're going to tell me Blacks sword is thousands upon thousands of times weaker on the sides.

[GodKaio-Ken]

He caught the slice from the sides where there is less cutting power much like a sword.

Yeah and getting punched right in the face isn't the same as getting smacked in it yet that'll kill just the same in Dragon Ball. It doesn't make sense if Trunks isn't of a comparable power level to Black & Goku, unless you're going to tell me Blacks sword is thousands upon thousands of times weaker on the sides.

Yeah that is generally how a sword works actually. The sides are very dull.