"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[kinisking]

And had an old man in cave capable of building robots much stronger than Super Saiyan with very limited data on what Saiyans were capable with.

Or had a 4 year old Gohan surpass the power that his father spent his entire life building up with just a few months of training under Piccolo.

Goten, Trunks, and Gohan are prodigies. It was a dumb idea to give the former two SSJ forms, as that cheapened the transformation greatly, but there's simple reasoning behind it. Gohan had a mysterious potential; this was always a unique trait of his. There isn't meant to be an explanation to his hidden powers, though it could be explored if they gave a flip about the character.

Dr. Gero created androids with infinite energy he himself could not control. We're never told what resources he used to achieve this. Clearly he did make miscalculations because he never intended on releasing the androids to begin with--they were too dangerous. He thought him and 20 could get the job done, and he was wrong.

Trunks in Super just got angry and, presumably, attained a form as strong as SSJB, despite never achieving SSJ3, SSJG, or SSJB, and never having hidden powers. It's an asspull to end all asspulls. As bad as Ichigo transforming against Ulquiorra.

My headcanon for Gohan's rage boosts is that his pacifist nature stops him from using his full potential. He's always holding back subconsciously against his enemies. His rage boost power is what his constant power would be if he had Goku's personality .

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Are we sure there's really three Zamasu's?

I'm watching it again now with subs and when Goku brings up that he saw Beerus kill him, Black mentions it has something to do with the time ring somehow.

But if he's a Zamasu from another timeline altogether then the time ring shouldn't play any part in it at all. He shouldn't even know that a Zamasu had died anyway.

That combined with them showing a flashback of the Zamasu who died...it makes me wonder if Black could just be that Zamasu.

Even if Black was from the regular timeline, and is protected by the Time Ring, the fact remains that in one version of events, Zamasu was killed, while in the other, he succeeded. Even if things were exactly the same up until that point, the timeline had to have split for those contradictory events to have taken place.

[Anime Kitten]

Even if Black was from the regular timeline, and is protected by the Time Ring, the fact remains that in one version of events, Zamasu was killed, while in the other, he succeeded. Even if things were exactly the same up until that point, the timeline had to have split for those contradictory events to have taken place.

Future Trunks coming back and talking about Black, I'd guess. That's the only logical thing I can see right now regarding when the split occurred.

[Bullza]

I didn't know where else to ask this so I'll ask here. Is this true?

"At some point in time Beerus met Frieza. The two got along fairly well as they both enjoyed destroying things. However one time Frieza got carried away and caused Beerus to get angry, with Beerus fighting Frieza and easily defeating the tyrant."

This was supposedly from Volume F.

[Nejishiki]

I didn't know where else to ask this so I'll ask here. Is this true?

"At some point in time Beerus met Frieza. The two got along fairly well as they both enjoyed destroying things. However one time Frieza got carried away and caused Beerus to get angry, with Beerus fighting Frieza and easily defeating the tyrant."

This was supposedly from Volume F.

We have a site, too! I don't know why your quote is rewritten, however.

Akira Toriyama’s Inside Story: What’s the relationship between Beerus and Freeza?
Even Freeza is no match for the God of Destruction Beerus, no matter what he does! Since they both destroy stuff, they got along reasonably well, but one time Freeza had his clock cleaned when he got carried away and made Beerus angry.

[Bullza]

Oh so that's where that was! Thanks a lot, I thought it was nonsense but I guess not.

[HeroR]

It's implied that Goku and Zamasu were going to fight at some point regardless of Trunks. And it makes sense. They just never delved too much into it.

When was that implied?

[alakazam^]

Even if Black was from the regular timeline, and is protected by the Time Ring, the fact remains that in one version of events, Zamasu was killed, while in the other, he succeeded. Even if things were exactly the same up until that point, the timeline had to have split for those contradictory events to have taken place.

This strongly reminds me of when you open a video on VLC or wherever and then you go delete the file but you can't because it's already in use. Except Beers, being a God, can delete the file anyway while the content is still acessible provided you don't close VLC. That's how I see Black existing. This could mean that either Black stops existing if he lost the Time Ring/went to the regular timeline or that he's stuck on that timeline without being able to return to his original point, only being able to go further, but they probably won't address that.

This way, there might have been a split when they came back from the future because it was at that point that Whis could reason Zamasu's intentions and actions, which led to his death. Beers destroying him also destroyed that split timeline from existence so no new Time Ring nor place for Black to come back to. If this is true and what Toriyama was thinking, that's why Whis' ability rewinds time instead of creating more timelines because that's the only way he can fix Beers' blunders, which would remain unchanged otherwise.

[Hit!!]

About the spoilers that were recently leaked.

[spoiler]I don't think the mafuba will ever work against Black/Zamasu. He's not essentially evil, he has a motive behind whatever he does. He does evil crap?? Of course, but from his point of view it is all justified. He would be more like The Punisher from Daredevil, that does really bad things, but he's doing good from his own point of view. He's doing justice, eliminating the scum, the people who hurt others and harm the universe and let's face it, every single mortal, no matter how noble or righteous he is, is prone to doing harm, everybody has some evil in them and thats what Zamasu is after, eliminating all evil, even if that means destroying the good that comes withing those people he kills. That's how he see's himself. He's not evil for the sake of evil. Which is why i think the mafuba will fail. The mafuba only works against demons who are essentially evil, who cause harm and hurt people just because that's their nature.[/spoiler]

[Jinzoningen MULE]

About the spoilers that were recently leaked.

[spoiler]I don't think the mafuba will ever work against Black/Zamasu. He's not essentially evil, he has a motive behind whatever he does. He does evil crap?? Of course, but from his point of view it is all justified. He would be more like The Punisher from Daredevil, that does really bad things, but he's doing good from his own point of view. He's doing justice, eliminating the scum, the people who hurt others and harm the universe and let's face it, every single mortal, no matter how noble or righteous he is, is prone to doing harm, everybody has some evil in them and thats what Zamasu is after, eliminating all evil, even if that means destroying the good that comes withing those people he kills. That's how he see's himself. He's not evil for the sake of evil. Which is why i think the mafuba will fail. The mafuba only works against demons who are essentially evil, who cause harm and hurt people just because that's their nature.[/spoiler]

Yeah, he has a motive, but it's incredibly self-centered in itself. He thinks that humans are ugly because they're violent and disobedient. To rectify this, Zamasu hypocritically disobeys his superior and begins violently murdering entire populations. He doesn't actually care about the state of the universe, only that it looks pretty to him. This is proven by the fact that he's willing to stoop to the exact methods that he despises humans for. He's a sadist, a psychopath with a God Complex (oddly enough), but nothing more than that.

[alakazam^]

The Mafuuba works on everyone, it's just a sealing technique with a fancy name because it was created to seal Piccolo Daimaou (hence the "Daimaou Seal" charm the Denshi Jar had on it).

[DainIronfoot]

Does anyone wonder where black actually got his clothing from lol. It's something small but it made me wonder especially after seeing episode 61 with him having the Kaioshin clothes first. It's a cool colored outfit :].

[Sodhi]

What I really want to know is what kind of boost is black getting?. They sure do not seem like zenkai. He is getting stronger instantly.

[MajinVegetaPD]

What I really want to know is what kind of boost is black getting?. They sure do not seem like zenkai. He is getting stronger instantly.

It's called a "plot boost".

[Sandubadear]

Does anyone wonder where black actually got his clothing from lol. It's something small but it made me wonder especially after seeing episode 61 with him having the Kaioshin clothes first. It's a cool colored outfit :].

From Toriyama. There wouldn't be any mystery if Black showed up with Kaioshin clothes at the beginning. In fact, he wouldn't even be called Goku Black, since Bulma gave him that name by his clothing. He would be named "Goku Kaioshin" instead (I don't know if Future Bulma ever saw Kaioshin, but still).

[Kanassa]

Does anyone wonder where black actually got his clothing from lol. It's something small but it made me wonder especially after seeing episode 61 with him having the Kaioshin clothes first. It's a cool colored outfit :].

I just assume that all Kaioshins know the clothes beam technique...

[Khin]

In my opinion, Black is from the regular Super timeline, but when Beerus killed Zamasu, the timeline was rewritten (that's what Beerus meant) and Black was never created. However, Black wasn't erased despite his past self being killed, because the Time Ring protected him.

Exactly. Black is from what the original course of the Super timeline should be, but Future Trunks time traveling to the present to tell everyone about him completely changes that course of history. However, even though the history was changed and should be erased now as Zamasu was destroyed by Beerus, Black's Time-Ring protects him from that, as he himself states in the episode.

Goku in the flashback hanging around on Earth and farming implies there's no threat around, and no full time-loop like some suggested.

The main question and confusion is how did Zamasu and Goku fight each other as the only reason why Goku fought Zamasu in the first place is because of Black. I completely understand this confusion, especially how the episode reused the scene of episode 53. But the same episode showed Goku hanging around on Earth farming, which means like Baggie_Saiyan said, Zamasu and Goku are going to fight at some point regardless of Black and Trunks. Trunks and Black showing up in the present timeline causes Zamasu and Goku to fight, but that doesn't mean that's the only way they can fight.

The biggest difference between the two Present Zamasu is their wishes. The Present Zamasu that was killed wanted to be immortal and create a fake Goku (Kaioshin exposed his plan in episode 59 and said he was impressed they figured it out), while Present Zamasu!Black have no interest in becoming immortal (Implied in episode 59), and want to switch bodies with Goku, not wish for a fake him. Obviously this is due to the history being changed due to Trunks' time travel, and greatly implies there's no time-loop happening.

Really with this, there's no confusion except for the third paragraph, but it's not that much. The manga seems to make this easier by having Kaioshin tell Zamasu about Goku, which would probably strike his interest and ask for a sparring match.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

[spoiler]It's pretty much confirmed that Zeno will kill Zamasu/Black, just look at the 65 episode title.[/spoiler]

[HeroR]

In my opinion, Black is from the regular Super timeline, but when Beerus killed Zamasu, the timeline was rewritten (that's what Beerus meant) and Black was never created. However, Black wasn't erased despite his past self being killed, because the Time Ring protected him.

Exactly. Black is from what the original course of the Super timeline should be, but Future Trunks time traveling to the present to tell everyone about him completely changes that course of history. However, even though the history was changed and should be erased now as Zamasu was destroyed by Beerus, Black's Time-Ring protects him from that, as he himself states in the episode.

Goku in the flashback hanging around on Earth and farming implies there's no threat around, and no full time-loop like some suggested.

The main question and confusion is how did Zamasu and Goku fight each other as the only reason why Goku fought Zamasu in the first place is because of Black. I completely understand this confusion, especially how the episode reused the scene of episode 53. But the same episode showed Goku hanging around on Earth farming, which means like Baggie_Saiyan said, Zamasu and Goku are going to fight at some point regardless of Black and Trunks. Trunks and Black showing up in the present timeline causes Zamasu and Goku to fight, but that doesn't mean that's the only way they can fight.

The biggest difference between the two Present Zamasu is their wishes. The Present Zamasu that was killed wanted to be immortal and create a fake Goku (Kaioshin exposed his plan in episode 59 and said he was impressed they figured it out), while Present Zamasu!Black have no interest in becoming immortal (Implied in episode 59), and want to switch bodies with Goku, not wish for a fake him. Obviously this is due to the history being changed due to Trunks' time travel, and greatly implies there's no time-loop happening.

Really with this, there's no confusion except for the third paragraph, but it's not that much. The manga seems to make this easier by having Kaioshin tell Zamasu about Goku, which would probably strike his interest and ask for a sparring match.

The flashback when Goku and Zamasu fought is exactly the same as Episode 53 implying that this isn't a timeline where Trunks never arrived since Goku only met and fought Zamasu because they wanted to know if he was Black. Zamasu didn't say, I saw Goku on Godtube, went to meet him, and lost in a fight. He said Goku gave him a crushing defeat and we see Goku and Zamasu's sparring match from Episode 53, implying that a time loop has happened.

Also, Zamasu only confirmed that he would used the Time Ring. He didn't say that he got his plan completely right. And why would he given the situation he was in.

[spoiler]It's pretty much confirmed that Zeno will kill Zamasu/Black, just look at the 65 episode title.[/spoiler]

Not really. Zamasu calls himself and Black the supreme gods.

[TheMikado]

I've said this many times already in this thread and the others, but on another forum I found the single best post for explaining why this doesn't make sense. In theory the loop should always involve both Trunks coming back AND Beerus deleting Black. Meaning there should never be a point where Zamasu both fought Goku in the same manner AND survived to become Black. Unless there's an explanation to that effect.

This doesn't explain how the time loop was broken with Beerus killing Zamasu, how could that have happened? Story aint over yet but still.

From the events we see from our perspective, Trunks coming back should always end up leading to Zamasu getting deleted, yet we know that Zamasu escaped this fate.......how? This video asserts Trunks always comes back in the loop, so yeah, a question mark there.

If you go with the theory that Trunks doesn't come back in the "starting point" of the loop and Zamasu learns about Goku some other way then everything makes sense but there's actually another really big problem, we saw the flashback of him fighting Goku and it was the exact same fight we saw. If Zamasu fought Goku under completely different circumstances surely the fight would look a little different, yet it was indeed the same one we saw. (you can just say the animators were being lazy and just reused footage and it might be true, in that case they unnessarily created a big issue when you need to be very meticulous when dealing with time travel plots)

Going under the assumption they weren't being lazy then the video is likely correct that Trunks always comes back, which goes back to the original question, how does Zamasu escape getting killed by Beerus, how did the loop break?