"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kanassa]

(except everything he writes is supposedly approved by Toriyama).

And? While I'm not in the group of him not getting the characters wrong, being supposedly approved by Toriyama is not proof against the claim.

Well actually it is. Someone may not like how the characters are written and that is their right but that doesn't mean he is getting the characters wrong when the creator seems to approve of what he is writing (and will let him know when he doesn't like something)

Supposedly having the original creators approval doesn't prove them wrong unless you assume there's no way that Toriyama could ever be wrong, which is just asinine.

[Kinokima]

And? While I'm not in the group of him not getting the characters wrong, being supposedly approved by Toriyama is not proof against the claim.

Well actually it is. Someone may not like how the characters are written and that is their right but that doesn't mean he is getting the characters wrong when the creator seems to approve of what he is writing (and will let him know when he doesn't like something)

Supposedly having the original creators approval doesn't prove them wrong unless you assume there's no way that Toriyama could ever be wrong, which is just asinine.

Sure I think Toriyama can make mistakes when it comes to forgetting things or plot holes. He's human.

But they are ultimately his characters. If he says this is how the characters are this is how they are. Doesnt mean people have to think it's good writing but what is good or bad is subjective.

I also don't know what you mean by getting things wrong. It's not a test with a right or wrong answer. It's a work of fiction originally created by Toriyama.

[LightBing]

I'm almost done re-reading the Zamasu Arc and boy, it really wasn't made for monthly reading.

I advise everyone to read it again, without the wait the pacing is infinitely better. There's a clear structure and progression.

Having to wait one month while knowing most plot points really hurt the manga. I expect the same to happen in the current arc, people will be anticipating differences and when it doesn't deliver it will feel like 1 month of waiting for nothing.

[Boo Machine]

I actually re-read the whole thing when the first chapter of the ToP dropped, and I still think it isn't bad but it isn't super interesting until the last 1/3rd or so? Around the time when Goku and Vegeta go in for Round 2. Goku vs Merged Zamasu being the best part.

[LightBing]

I actually re-read the whole thing the first chapter of the ToP dropped, and I still think it isn't bad but it isn't super interesting until the last 1/3rd or so? Around the time when Goku and Vegeta go in for Round 2. Goku vs Merged Zamasu being the best part.

I really enjoy the set ups at the start and their little fights: Trunks flashback and his fight with Black, Zamasu fight with Kibito and the slow reveal of his personality while visiting that Lizard planet.
The second half is pretty meh(not even Vegeta being my favourite character improves it), once Merged Zamasu is formed it gets good again.

[Boo Machine]

The set up I thought was done well was Trunks healing powers. It may not seem like much but I thought it was pretty neat that he was unknowingly saving lives and that comes into play in the climax. Keeps him with the position of "Hope of the future" without him necessarily having to be able to throw a strong punch. Kind of a shame Trunks implies that he is going to get rid of it. A Saiyan with healing powers is really cool in my book.

Also Trunks sacrifice (At the time) to let the others escape to the past gave me the feelings and the Kais fighting along side Trunks was also a nice touch. Other than those though I thought first half of the arc was just ok.

[LightBing]

Yeah I don't get why they had to remove his healing powers, it was a great way to make him unique, contribute to the main fight and in such a way that makes sense for his personality; Mr. Hope.

While I enjoy most of the first part it isn't by any means amazing.

[Miracles]

The same ones bashing Toyotaro are the same ones praising most of the anime.

Never mind the fact the anime does most of what they don't like about the manga worse.

In some instances. I just enjoy both, they aren't meant to be taken seriously for deep analysis.

[The gr]

Toyotaro is a talented artist and a good storyteller. I have grown beyond weary of the constant negative feedback from distasteful/unintelligent parties. There are legitimate criticisms to be found, for sure. However, that is also true of the original manga as penned by Akira Toriyama. There is no reason that this thread should be so dominated by misdirected fanboy bullshit.

Opinion, but he's a mediocre storyteller. Toriyama has his issues, but he runs circles around Toyo.

Is there anything you like in the manga,did you at least enjoyed this month chapter because by looking at history your not enjoying this at all, Make me wonder why you didn't drop this product

I re Read the ft trunks,i still don't like the antogonist, there just so weak, especially black and mz,I really don't like those guys

[HeroR]

Is there anything you like in the manga,did you at least enjoyed this month chapter because by looking at history your not enjoying this at all, Make me wonder why you didn't drop this product

I re Read the ft trunks,i still don't like the antogonist, there just so weak, especially black and mz,I really don't like those guys

I usually read the manga to see how it differs from the anime. I don’t hate the manga by any means. I just find it average and often confused about the praise it gets.

I just don’t find Toyo to be a very good storyteller, he runs into the failings of a lot of fanfic writers, and I really hate his copy art. To be sure I’m a fanfic writer and reader myself so I don’t mean ‘fanfic’ as an insult. Just as someone who writes and reads a lot of fanfics, Toyo checks a lot of boxes that annoys me about fanfics.

[Kanassa]

Is there anything you like in the manga,did you at least enjoyed this month chapter because by looking at history your not enjoying this at all, Make me wonder why you didn't drop this product

I re Read the ft trunks,i still don't like the antogonist, there just so weak, especially black and mz,I really don't like those guys

I usually read the manga to see how it differs from the anime. I don’t hate the manga by any means. I just find it average and often confused about the praise it gets.

I just don’t find Toyo to be a very good storyteller, he runs into the failings of a lot of fanfic writers, and I really hate his copy art. To be sure I’m a fanfic writer and reader myself so I don’t mean ‘fanfic’ as an insult. Just as someone who writes and reads a lot of fanfics, Toyo checks a lot of boxes that annoys me about fanfics.

What' s the flaws that are specific to fanfic writers?

[HeroR]

What' s the flaws that are specific to fanfic writers?

It’s hard for me to describe so bear with me.

One is the need to explain everything no matter how minor it is. While this can enhance the story, it more often ends in an info dump. Some time it’s best to subtle and it’s okay to just imply stuff. This also have the side-effect of spoon-feeding your audience. One example that sticks out in my mind in the Super manga is how Goku made it a point to tell Trunks how much Vegeta changed just before they fought Black for the first time. Like, we as the audience nor Trunks needed Goku to tell us that.

The need to show their fandom knowledge. A lot of fanfic writers like to show off how much they know the lore and story in their work. Like making an obscure reference thst most casual fans wouldn’t notice. While cool and awesome in small doses, it comes off as distracting if done too much. It’s like screaming, “look at what a fan I am!”. And some times, the need to show off ones’ fandom leads to making mistakes. Not in the Super manga, but in Toyo’s take of Resurrection ‘F’, he had Krillin make a comment about Pilaf using the Dragon Ball for mischief again. Thing is, Krillin never met Pilaf and unless Goku told stories he shouldn’t know who Pilaf is. Even if he did, why would Pilaf be the first person to pop into his mind if he just heard stories? It’s not a major thing, but I see fans make this mistake all the time.

Adding or implying common fandom and trying to push it as common knowledge. Toyo, IMO, crosses this last chapter by embracing and enhancing “Goku is a bad father” using Vegeta of all people to promote this message.

Specific to the Dragon Ball fandom, Vegeta’s character always seem to miss the final development he got at the end of the Buu Saga. Yes, Vegeta still wants to be #1, but he’s far more mature about it and isn’t alway salty when Goku one-ups him. The Super manga with Vegeta in the Future Trunks Saga had this problem since he wanted to beat up Black for having Goku’s face, not so much that he tortured his son and killed a version of his wife.

Another issue in Dragon Ball fandom, making exteremly lackluster villains. For some reason all Dragon Ball fanfics seem to fill the same cliche list for Dragon Ball villains with only a few variety. Yes, the manga Dragon Ball didn’t have deep villains, but each of them had a certain charm to them. Something I guess Toriyama was great at doing and most fanfic writers are not Toriyama. They are not good adding the charm element and tend to make villain who are just boring. In Toyo’s case, how he wrote Zamasu and Black. On paper, they’re not that different from their anime counterparts and many other Z villains. Yet, look at how the anime executed them compared to the manga. Toyo has this problem with Xicor from his AF manga too. Granted, Toei isn’t perfect either and tend to recycle, but even they created charming or memorable bad guys that seems shallow on paper.

Pandering to common fandom wants. Yes, the anime panders too, female Broly, and isn’t always a bad thing. The anime also have moments when the pandering is annoying. Fanfics, however, tend to be far more shameless about it and the pander has an annoying habit of being unneeded most of the time. Like why was Broly in Toyo’s AF manga? Even the lastest chapter with all the Gods of Destruction, it feels like it was created to pander to the crowd, “we want to see the gods fight”. Beerus doing especially well is icing. I felt the same with Vegeta vs. Beerus last week, except that was worse since it had no real story purpose other than to say, “Vegeta has Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and is Goku’s rival again, but they’re still shit to Beerus”. Like, did we really need that? The same with the prophecy now including Vegeta because everything Goku has have to include Vegeta in some form. And Goku doing Haki is also pander.

Favoritism. You can usual tell whose the author’s favorite and less favorite characters. At it worse, you get wanked and Ron The Death Eater. Thankfully, Toyo largely avoid this.

Stories that feels like it was written by chapter instead of planned out. Granted, Toriyama did this, but he’s one of the few authors that is extremely good at it to the point a lot of stuff feels plan. Most writers are not that good and the flaws writing per chapter begin to show quickly. In Toyo’s case, Trunks’ healing power seems like a retcon, Goku using Haki came out of nowhere, and Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan also feels like a late addition that Toyo thought of.

These are points I can think of at the moment, at least when it come to comparing the Super manga to fanfics. They’re minor, but they’re stuff in the fanfic community that annoys me. And again, I’m not saying professional produces do not have these issues, they certainly do. Only that I have seen them far more often in fanfics and in greater numbers.

[TheMikado]

What' s the flaws that are specific to fanfic writers?

It’s hard for me to describe so bear with me.

One is the need to explain everything no matter how minor it is. While this can enhance the story, it more often ends in an info dump. Some time it’s best to subtle and it’s okay to just imply stuff. This also have the side-effect of spoon-feeding your audience. One example that sticks out in my mind in the Super manga is how Goku made it a point to tell Trunks how much Vegeta changed just before they fought Black for the first time. Like, we as the audience nor Trunks needed Goku to tell us that.

The need to show their fandom knowledge. A lot of fanfic writers like to show off how much they know the lore and story in their work. Like making an obscure reference thst most casual fans wouldn’t notice. While cool and awesome in small doses, it comes off as distracting if done too much. It’s like screaming, “look at what a fan I am!”. And some times, the need to show off ones’ fandom leads to making mistakes. Not in the Super manga, but in Toyo’s take of Resurrection ‘F’, he had Krillin make a comment about Pilaf using the Dragon Ball for mischief again. Thing is, Krillin never met Pilaf and unless Goku told stories he shouldn’t know who Pilaf is. Even if he did, why would Pilaf be the first person to pop into his mind if he just heard stories? It’s not a major thing, but I see fans make this mistake all the time.

Adding or implying common fandom and trying to push it as common knowledge. Toyo, IMO, crosses this last chapter by embracing and enhancing “Goku is a bad father” using Vegeta of all people to promote this message.

Specific to the Dragon Ball fandom, Vegeta’s character always seem to miss the final development he got at the end of the Buu Saga. Yes, Vegeta still wants to be #1, but he’s far more mature about it and isn’t alway salty when Goku one-ups him. The Super manga with Vegeta in the Future Trunks Saga had this problem since he wanted to beat up Black for having Goku’s face, not so much that he tortured his son and killed a version of his wife.

Another issue in Dragon Ball fandom, making exteremly lackluster villains. For some reason all Dragon Ball fanfics seem to fill the same cliche list for Dragon Ball villains with only a few variety. Yes, the manga Dragon Ball didn’t have deep villains, but each of them had a certain charm to them. Something I guess Toriyama was great at doing and most fanfic writers are not Toriyama. They are not good adding the charm element and tend to make villain who are just boring. In Toyo’s case, how he wrote Zamasu and Black. On paper, they’re not that different from their anime counterparts and many other Z villains. Yet, look at how the anime executed them compared to the manga. Toyo has this problem with Xicor from his AF manga too. Granted, Toei isn’t perfect either and tend to recycle, but even they created charming or memorable bad guys that seems shallow on paper.

Pandering to common fandom wants. Yes, the anime panders too, female Broly, and isn’t always a bad thing. The anime also have moments when the pandering is annoying. Fanfics, however, tend to be far more shameless about it and the pander has an annoying habit of being unneeded most of the time. Like why was Broly in Toyo’s AF manga? Even the lastest chapter with all the Gods of Destruction, it feels like it was created to pander to the crowd, “we want to see the gods fight”. Beerus doing especially well is icing. I felt the same with Vegeta vs. Beerus last week, except that was worse since it had no real story purpose other than to say, “Vegeta has Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and is Goku’s rival again, but they’re still shit to Beerus”. Like, did we really need that? The same with the prophecy now including Vegeta because everything Goku has have to include Vegeta in some form. And Goku doing Haki is also pander.

Favoritism. You can usual tell whose the author’s favorite and less favorite characters. At it worse, you get wanked and Ron The Death Eater. Thankfully, Toyo largely avoid this.

Stories that feels like it was written by chapter instead of planned out. Granted, Toriyama did this, but he’s one of the few authors that is extremely good at it to the point a lot of stuff feels plan. Most writers are not that good and the flaws writing per chapter begin to show quickly. In Toyo’s case, Trunks’ healing power seems like a retcon, Goku using Haki came out of nowhere, and Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan also feels like a late addition that Toyo thought of.

These are points I can think of at the moment, at least when it come to comparing the Super manga to fanfics. They’re minor, but they’re stuff in the fanfic community that annoys me. And again, I’m not saying professional produces do not have these issues, they certainly do. Only that I have seen them far more often in fanfics and in greater numbers.

Wait are we talking about Toriyama or Toyotaro? Because according to this list they both qualify as “fanfic” writers.

[The gr]

What' s the flaws that are specific to fanfic writers?

It’s hard for me to describe so bear with me.

One is the need to explain everything no matter how minor it is. While this can enhance the story, it more often ends in an info dump. Some time it’s best to subtle and it’s okay to just imply stuff. This also have the side-effect of spoon-feeding your audience. One example that sticks out in my mind in the Super manga is how Goku made it a point to tell Trunks how much Vegeta changed just before they fought Black for the first time. Like, we as the audience nor Trunks needed Goku to tell us that.

The need to show their fandom knowledge. A lot of fanfic writers like to show off how much they know the lore and story in their work. Like making an obscure reference thst most casual fans wouldn’t notice. While cool and awesome in small doses, it comes off as distracting if done too much. It’s like screaming, “look at what a fan I am!”. And some times, the need to show off ones’ fandom leads to making mistakes. Not in the Super manga, but in Toyo’s take of Resurrection ‘F’, he had Krillin make a comment about Pilaf using the Dragon Ball for mischief again. Thing is, Krillin never met Pilaf and unless Goku told stories he shouldn’t know who Pilaf is. Even if he did, why would Pilaf be the first person to pop into his mind if he just heard stories? It’s not a major thing, but I see fans make this mistake all the time.

Adding or implying common fandom and trying to push it as common knowledge. Toyo, IMO, crosses this last chapter by embracing and enhancing “Goku is a bad father” using Vegeta of all people to promote this message.

Specific to the Dragon Ball fandom, Vegeta’s character always seem to miss the final development he got at the end of the Buu Saga. Yes, Vegeta still wants to be #1, but he’s far more mature about it and isn’t alway salty when Goku one-ups him. The Super manga with Vegeta in the Future Trunks Saga had this problem since he wanted to beat up Black for having Goku’s face, not so much that he tortured his son and killed a version of his wife.

Another issue in Dragon Ball fandom, making exteremly lackluster villains. For some reason all Dragon Ball fanfics seem to fill the same cliche list for Dragon Ball villains with only a few variety. Yes, the manga Dragon Ball didn’t have deep villains, but each of them had a certain charm to them. Something I guess Toriyama was great at doing and most fanfic writers are not Toriyama. They are not good adding the charm element and tend to make villain who are just boring. In Toyo’s case, how he wrote Zamasu and Black. On paper, they’re not that different from their anime counterparts and many other Z villains. Yet, look at how the anime executed them compared to the manga. Toyo has this problem with Xicor from his AF manga too. Granted, Toei isn’t perfect either and tend to recycle, but even they created charming or memorable bad guys that seems shallow on paper.

Pandering to common fandom wants. Yes, the anime panders too, female Broly, and isn’t always a bad thing. The anime also have moments when the pandering is annoying. Fanfics, however, tend to be far more shameless about it and the pander has an annoying habit of being unneeded most of the time. Like why was Broly in Toyo’s AF manga? Even the lastest chapter with all the Gods of Destruction, it feels like it was created to pander to the crowd, “we want to see the gods fight”. Beerus doing especially well is icing. I felt the same with Vegeta vs. Beerus last week, except that was worse since it had no real story purpose other than to say, “Vegeta has Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and is Goku’s rival again, but they’re still shit to Beerus”. Like, did we really need that? The same with the prophecy now including Vegeta because everything Goku has have to include Vegeta in some form. And Goku doing Haki is also pander.

Favoritism. You can usual tell whose the author’s favorite and less favorite characters. At it worse, you get wanked and Ron The Death Eater. Thankfully, Toyo largely avoid this.

Stories that feels like it was written by chapter instead of planned out. Granted, Toriyama did this, but he’s one of the few authors that is extremely good at it to the point a lot of stuff feels plan. Most writers are not that good and the flaws writing per chapter begin to show quickly. In Toyo’s case, Trunks’ healing power seems like a retcon, Goku using Haki came out of nowhere, and Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan also feels like a late addition that Toyo thought of.

These are points I can think of at the moment, at least when it come to comparing the Super manga to fanfics. They’re minor, but they’re stuff in the fanfic community that annoys me. And again, I’m not saying professional produces do not have these issues, they certainly do. Only that I have seen them far more often in fanfics and in greater numbers.

You call out the manga god figth being pandering yet the anime did it as well or unless this is one of the pandering of the anime you mention through most of your points are correct in some way,i just simply wish toyo stop doing these annoying tibits that you mention sadly they will never go away

[shadowmaria]

My prediction moving forward is that the Zen Exhibition Match will conclude in October, with the stakes of the Tournament announced.
November will be recruitment, December will be Frieza's recruitment (assuming the Buu falling asleep thing is in the outline), and January the competitors will gather, with the Grand Priest declaring YOU MAY NOW BEGIN! to end the chapter

[Kanassa]

...

*Glances at own fanfiction* I have n-n-no idea what you're talking about....

[HeroR]

You call out the manga god figth being pandering yet the anime did it as well or unless this is one of the pandering of the anime you mention through most of your points are correct in some way,i just simply wish toyo stop doing these annoying tibits that you mention sadly they will never go away

Here's the different for me:

1) The 'fight' was between three gods and it lasted only a few minutes. It even ended in a gag where Zen'o fell sleep and the Grand Priest made the gods fixed the stage. It wasn't even the main focused on the episode. Compared to the free-for-all with all the gods in the manga that takes up most of the chapter and probably most of the next. It was definitely made with, 'it would cool to see all the gods fight at once' mindset that fans had on their minds since all the Gods of Destruction were introduced.

2) Yes it was pander on the anime's part since the gods fighting wasn't really needed, but it didn't annoy since it wasn't the main focused. Like how I tolerate female Broly who is blatant pander because she isn't really important to the story and when Kale was being a Broly clone, I find her annoying.

As I said in my post, pander in of itself isn't a bad thing. Even the best manga/anime have some element of pander in it. It's when the pander is blatant and adds nothing to the narrative that I have issue.

...

*Glances at own fanfiction* I have n-n-no idea what you're talking about....

I can't talk. I do the same thing in my fics, especially the showing off your fandom knowledge

It's an easy thing to fall into.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Spanish Manga seems to have a different logo too :
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kinda digging this one as well, if the Super logo was stylised the same, could have made a great logo for the main series.

[Lord Beerus]

Spanish Manga seems to have a different logo too :
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kinda digging this one as well, if the Super logo was stylised the same, could have made a great logo for the main series.

That is one hell of a logo and I would have loved to the official logo for the entire Dragon Ball Super franchise.

[SilverPlaqueVII]

Looks like episode 112 may be moved to October 29th instead of October 22nd because of the upcoming Japanese general election. Another week off for Super once again.
EDIT: Wrong thread.