"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Raphael_Z]

What I think is that Toriyama REALLY wanted to use Roshi in the TOP for narrative purposes.

If he were to include Goten and Trunks then Roshi AND either Krilin or Tien would be out (and then fans would rage about why their favorite Earthling didn't make the cut). Other option would be making it a 12 person tournament but that would require designing 2 more fodder character for each universe.

Let's face it: Tien and Krilin are irrelevant power wise AND narrative wise.

Here's the thing, wanting to used something because of author appeal is one thing. But you need an in-story reason as for why certain things happened, otherwise it just isn't good writing. Tien and Krillin could have done something, even if it wasn't KOing anyone, like given back up with their specificity techniques to more powerful fighters like Krillin did with 18 in the anime or doing saves and can still go out early. Krillin went out by the third episodes of the TOP in the anime and he still did stuff. Tien lasted longer, did fewer stuff than Krillin, but he still did something. Them just showing up and not doing anything gives a 'what was the point' feeling. They don't serve as a 'oh crap' moment since they're weak and expected to go fast and they didn't do anything to prove why they were even chosen outside of 'well, Toriyama wanted them'.

This is a flawed argument. You don't need to be powerful to be useful. Bulma and Future Mai were important last arc and they were muggles.

Monaka was important in the U6 Arc too. But you're dodging the main point: This is a 80 Fighter Tournament Battle Royale. The anime made the mistake of turning this into a normal 1vs1 Tournament with a new "Pokemon of the Week" approach. The manga is more realistic. Krilin and Tien are Reecome level at best in terms of power (and that's already being too generous with them).

Having them win at least a couple of fights while having the entire U9 win 0 fights is really bad writing because the author would be prioritizing popularity and the fandom over what makes sense for the story. Narratively speaking, Krilin and Tien did 0 relevant things in the anime other than "just being there" while Roshi at least provided some interesting interactions with Vegeta (for the first time in the entire history of Dragon Ball) and Goku.

[Dragono]

I don’t think Tien and Krillin going out so fast covey ‘no one is safe’ since they were the weakest characters and expected to go early. If Vegeta, Gohan, Goku, and 17 got benched within the first second you would have a point. All this really does is make not bringing Goten and Trunks stupid.

Krillin and tien went out because toriyama wanted them to so whats to say that Goten and Trunks wouldn't be the same.

It still would be a smarter choice since Goten and Trunks are among the strongest characters in the series while Tien and Krillin has no real justification except the anime saying they're experience. All we got from the manga on Goten and Trunks is 'no kids'.

it would be smarter to bring those 2 just to knock them out in the second chapter?

and you know no one bought that experience excuse!

[prince212]

I expect U10 and probably even U2 to be eliminated next month. Those 2 don't reall have any interesting fighters to be shown unfortunately other than Ribrianne.

I think 2 universes eliminated in the same chapter will be too much , for sure u10 will be gone next chapter and some build up about u2 .
Toyo hint some mistery eliminations , I hope piccolo won’t be affected in that matter like the anime , IMO piccolo is the perfect guy to discover the mistery and not the one to be affected by.
It’s awesome that we know the story , but not the develop,that make me be waiting for next chapter and intrigue about who of them will be the focus and mvps

[Exline]

Here's the thing, wanting to used something because of author appeal is one thing. But you need an in-story reason as for why certain things happened, otherwise it just isn't good writing. Tien and Krillin could have done something, even if it wasn't KOing anyone, like given back up with their specificity techniques to more powerful fighters like Krillin did with 18 in the anime or doing saves and can still go out early. Krillin went out by the third episodes of the TOP in the anime and he still did stuff. Tien lasted longer, did fewer stuff than Krillin, but he still did something. Them just showing up and not doing anything gives a 'what was the point' feeling. They don't serve as a 'oh crap' moment since they're weak and expected to go fast and they didn't do anything to prove why they were even chosen outside of 'well, Toriyama wanted them'.

This is a flawed argument. You don't need to be powerful to be useful. Bulma and Future Mai were important last arc and they were muggles.

Monaka was important in the U6 Arc too. But you're dodging the main point: This is a 80 Fighter Tournament Battle Royale. The anime made the mistake of turning this into a normal 1vs1 Tournament with a new "Pokemon of the Week" approach. The manga is more realistic. Krilin and Tien are Reecome level at best in terms of power (and that's already being too generous with them).

Having them win at least a couple of fights while having the entire U9 win 0 fights is really bad writing because the author would be prioritizing popularity and the fandom over what makes sense for the story. Narratively speaking, Krilin and Tien did 0 relevant things in the anime other than "just being there" while Roshi at least provided some interesting interactions with Vegeta (for the first time in the entire history of Dragon Ball) and Goku.

HeroR, I think it would have been better if Toyotaro started the chapter with the characters that were eliminated off-screen (Dr. Rota, Monna, and The Two U3 Fighters) instead of Magetta to attack them and cause the team to disperse. Krillin would be separate from the group when trying to deal with his opponent (possibly Monna), avoiding ki-blasts and blocking her attacks, probably throws in a couple Kienzans. Monna avoids them and pursues Krillin, only to realize he's charging a Kamehameha. Krillin would get excited about proving his worth in the tournament, but then mid-battle, he'd get blindsided by a Ki-Blast from Frost before firing his Kamehameha.

I'd prefer if he gave Krillin a tiny moment like that instead of just getting blindsided easily. I'm satisfied with what he did for Tenshinhan cause at least did something instead of nothing. The Kikoho was his strongest attack and was meant to convey tension in that the Earthlings were in great peril.

Someone in this thread also stated their dislike towards the way Frost was used. I did enjoy Frost's eliminations but I prefer his anime counterpart's cunning style of eliminating in his enemies. An example was when he used the Evil Containment Wave Reflection on Vegeta.

And Raphael_Z. how is it bad writing that the Universe with the lowest mortal level have the weakest fighters of all Universes? I think it'd make sense if the Earthlings of U7 were able to take out at least one of the U9 Fighters before Frost did.

[nato25]

Honestly I don't mind Krillin getting knocked off immediately. In my opinion its what the show should have been, people fighting desperately for survival. Frieza said it best to Piccolo, why hesitate. It's you or them.

This is where the beauty of having two interpretations comes into it.

You have toyotaro who is more focused on story and always trying to be consistent and realistic. A kikoho/tri beam to Frost does nothing, because at this point in the series that's where we're at. Also dont forget at the end of the previous chapter frieza told frost to target them.

Then you have Toei who lets face it, is always looking to sell more merch. No one buys a Krillin figure if he got the manga treatment in the anime. However the anime let him hang around a bit just to showcase him a bit more and thats cool to see as well.

I love it either way, probably prefer the manga to be honest. Whoever said it above is right, Tien and Krillin are tapped out power wise and story wise, as unfortunate as it is, but its not like they dont have more than their fair share of awesome moments in the past.

A bit off topic but what was with Viz translation of Tiens kikoho/tribeam? Never seen that translation before.

[LightBing]

Muten Roshi little sermon almost feels little a jab at the anime approach in regards to Goku.

Thinking about how much there's still unresolved before the final showdown makes me dread the idea of dwelling, even if superficially, on curiosities about the other Universes and fighters.
We still have:
- #18 vs Ribrianne
- Muten Roshi moment (If there was nothing to tell he would have been out by now)
- Hit
- Universe 6 Saiyans
- The chameleon dude and the small guy.
- The result of Gohan's training
and there's room for more depending on what Mr.Toriyama wrote.

[prince212]

Muten Roshi little sermon almost feels little a jab at the anime approach in regards to Goku.

Thinking about how much there's still unresolved before the final showdown makes me dread the idea of dwelling, even if superficially, on curiosities about the other Universes and fighters.
We still have:
- #18 vs Ribrianne
- Muten Roshi moment (If there was nothing to tell he would have been out by now)
- Hit
- Universe 6 Saiyans
- The chameleon dude and the small guy.
- The result of Gohan's training
and there's room for more depending on what Mr.Toriyama wrote.

Well muten Roshi already told us that he’s got his pride and that he doesn’t want other u7 warriors to be worry for him , for the shake of u7 victory, if the strongers are worry about the weekers , that is only carrying stones in your back, with is a good message . And yes , after that I guess he may show us some mafuba , anime overplayed that but I enjoy the message .
Hit presumably kind of soon elimination proves that being eliminate prior to others doesn’t mean you are less strong , for those who said that isn’t fair that Roshi is still on the ring and Krillin is out , it’s just a matter of luck.
18 vs Ribrianne was already hinted in ch33 when 18 said that she’s a married woman .
I’m not sure if u6 girls are good to be use against Goku or better against somebody else , just to have something different
Gohan training? I think in the manga that took just some out paneling hours , so the result should be at the maximum that he gets fit to his previous level back in buu days , more than that has no sense .

[jeffbr92]

Krillin and Tien were treated better in the anime, that's a fact, but after reading this chapter I was okay about it. The only thing that I don't like is Roshi outlasting them, there's clearly a preference between characters there while writing a story. I don't buy Roshi return ever since RoF movie, but that's just me.

[TKA]

Krillin and Tien were treated better in the anime, that's a fact

No, their fandoms were treated better.

The manga treats their characters better by involving them in something actually interesting, rather than diluting their presence and impact with filler fights against fodder warriors.

[jeffbr92]

No, their fandoms were treated better. The manga treats their characters better by involving them in something actually interesting, rather than diluting their presence and impact with filler fights against fodder warriors.

I would expect a good discussion from you rather than arguing with your manga fanboyism bias.

[dragonball0900]

Krillin and Tien were treated better in the anime, that's a fact, but after reading this chapter I was okay about it. The only thing that I don't like is Roshi outlasting them, there's clearly a preference between characters there while writing a story. I don't buy Roshi return ever since RoF movie, but that's just me.

I agree with you entirely. That is the thing I'm disliking about this whole "Krillin and Tien being eliminated fast" thing, that Roshi is still there in the ring. I though all 3 would've been eliminated right in this chapter, but it turns out the writers keep pushing Roshi into the story for the sake of it.

[Lionel]

I can't help but wonder if that Kikoho would have had any kind of effect if Frost had been in his heaviest suppressed or even second most suppressed form. He would have probably still been stronger than Tenshinhan but maybe the Kikoho could have dealt a meaningful impact on him. It's also a shame that Tenshinhan didn't try a snatch & throw manoeuvre with the Mafuba. It doesn't appear like his status as a user of that technique is getting much acknowledgement -- for that matter neither is the Taiyoken which was copied from him originally.

[Exline]

No, their fandoms were treated better.

The manga treats their characters better by involving them in something actually interesting, rather than diluting their presence and impact with filler fights against fodder warriors.

Read through some posts.

What is with people and this notion that characters "Deserve" to be "treated better"? Well, characters aren't real people. Characters exist to serve a plot, and that's it. If characters become detrimental to a plot, a good writer gets rid of them. Characters are best when they work with the plot to create the response in a reader/viewer/player the writer wants.

I'm content with what happened with Krillin and Tenshinhan, but just because you consider their fights in the anime to be filler doesn't mean it's bad filler. They're involvement in the tournament is something nearly all fans would want to see... why deny the fandom of that? If you're creative enough to give these low-tier characters some shine in the tournament, why not take it? You get more out of a great story that way. It's not like they gave us too many episodes of the ToP. They gave us a great amount of content.

Why are some people in this thread so against minor characters getting some shine? At least give them a chance to be somewhat impactful. You don't have to write off fan favorites just because their weak. You try to be creative and give them something their worthy of so they become memorable. You can do the same thing with the new fighters as well. If you have the opportunity to make them interesting, why not take it?

All people ever want is to rush the manga and anime to get to the climactic fight, but we have 80 fighters and that gives us many possible battle scenarios.
Dragon Ball is practically all about fights, especially fights that drag but are executed well enough to be satisfactory. It's not like the fights in the tournament were ever as long as Goku vs. Frieza on Namek.

Just sit back and enjoy the show. You're getting all these cool fight scenes, all these cool characters, all these cool gimmicks, all these fan-favorite characters teaming up and interacting, and if you don't enjoy any of that because you want to see Jiren vs. Goku 3 chapters into the ToP, then at least reconsider and have a more optimistic take on these characters rather than a cynical "get to the point already" attitude.

[jeffbr92]

I agree with you entirely. That is the thing I'm disliking about this whole "Krillin and Tien being eliminated fast" thing, that Roshi is still there in the ring. I though all 3 would've been eliminated right in this chapter, but it turns out the writers keep pushing Roshi into the story for the sake of it.

Yes and ever since RoF we know that Toriyama had grown a thing for Roshi, but his comeback diminishes his character arc in the 22nd TB saying he would leave everything to the new generation. Okay we got a episode of him explaining that his students taught him that's too early to decide his own limits, which is nice, but Krillin and Tien should be still ahead of him IMO

[prince212]

Krillin and Tien were treated better in the anime, that's a fact, but after reading this chapter I was okay about it. The only thing that I don't like is Roshi outlasting them, there's clearly a preference between characters there while writing a story. I don't buy Roshi return ever since RoF movie, but that's just me.

I agree with you entirely. That is the thing I'm disliking about this whole "Krillin and Tien being eliminated fast" thing, that Roshi is still there in the ring. I though all 3 would've been eliminated right in this chapter, but it turns out the writers keep pushing Roshi into the story for the sake of it.

What’s the big deal about Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien , he was lucky that Goku saved him , Toriyama made the script with the order of eliminations , and it’s fine , is there any jealousy about that or what ?
If the author has a preference for somebody in a particular moment like this ... is that bad ?
I think A.T himself wanted to make a little recognition to the old master , and may be he’s starting to look himself closer to Roshi just because he’s the old master too , just an opinion

[dragonball0900]

Yes and ever since RoF we know that Toriyama had grown a thing for Roshi, but his comeback diminishes his character arc in the 22nd TB saying he would leave everything to the new generation. Okay we got a episode of him explaining that his students taught him that's too early to decide his own limits, which is nice, but Krillin and Tien should be still ahead of him IMO

Exactly! I mean, I don't mind if Roshi decides to return and with with the others. But giving him more attention than two guys who SHOULD be way stronger than him is silly. Eliminating those two in question before him is also a downfall and it makes it seem that Roshi is being forced into the story (like Androids 17 and 18 imo).

What’s the big deal about Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien , he was lucky that Goku saved him , Toriyama made the script with the order of eliminations , and it’s fine , is there any jealousy about that or what ?
If the author has a preference for somebody in a particular moment like this ... is that bad ?
I think A.T himself wanted to make a little recognition to the old master , and may be he’s starting to look himself closer to Roshi just because he’s the old master too , just an opinion

The problem is that it contradicts everything shown in Dragon Ball and in Z and it makes it seem that the whole Kamisama and Kaiosama training and the Guru power boost at Namek didn't exist, like if Toriyama forgot that Tien and Krillin should be stronger than Roshi to begin with. The worst thing of all is that both Krillin and Tien got treated like rubbish while Roshi will be treated way cooler just out of nothing.

[Exline]

Yes and ever since RoF we know that Toriyama had grown a thing for Roshi, but his comeback diminishes his character arc in the 22nd TB saying he would leave everything to the new generation. Okay we got a episode of him explaining that his students taught him that's too early to decide his own limits, which is nice, but Krillin and Tien should be still ahead of him IMO

Exactly! I mean, I don't mind if Roshi decides to return and with with the others. But giving him more attention than two guys who SHOULD be way stronger than him is silly. Eliminating those two in question before him is also a downfall and it makes it seem that Roshi is being forced into the story (like Androids 17 and 18 imo).

What’s the big deal about Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien , he was lucky that Goku saved him , Toriyama made the script with the order of eliminations , and it’s fine , is there any jealousy about that or what ?
If the author has a preference for somebody in a particular moment like this ... is that bad ?
I think A.T himself wanted to make a little recognition to the old master , and may be he’s starting to look himself closer to Roshi just because he’s the old master too , just an opinion

The problem is that it contradicts everything shown in Dragon Ball and in Z and it makes it seem that the whole Kamisama and Kaiosama training and the Guru power boost at Namek didn't exist, like if Toriyama forgot that Tien and Krillin should be stronger than Roshi to begin with. The worst thing of all is that both Krillin and Tien got treated like rubbish while Roshi will be treated way cooler just out of nothing.

Don't you guys remember that he has "more experience" than Tien and Krillin?

[prince212]

Yes and ever since RoF we know that Toriyama had grown a thing for Roshi, but his comeback diminishes his character arc in the 22nd TB saying he would leave everything to the new generation. Okay we got a episode of him explaining that his students taught him that's too early to decide his own limits, which is nice, but Krillin and Tien should be still ahead of him IMO

Exactly! I mean, I don't mind if Roshi decides to return and with with the others. But giving him more attention than two guys who SHOULD be way stronger than him is silly. Eliminating those two in question before him is also a downfall and it makes it seem that Roshi is being forced into the story (like Androids 17 and 18 imo).

What’s the big deal about Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien , he was lucky that Goku saved him , Toriyama made the script with the order of eliminations , and it’s fine , is there any jealousy about that or what ?
If the author has a preference for somebody in a particular moment like this ... is that bad ?
I think A.T himself wanted to make a little recognition to the old master , and may be he’s starting to look himself closer to Roshi just because he’s the old master too , just an opinion

The problem is that it contradicts everything shown in Dragon Ball and in Z and it makes it seem that the whole Kamisama and Kaiosama training and the Guru power boost at Namek didn't exist, like if Toriyama forgot that Tien and Krillin should be stronger than Roshi to begin with. The worst thing of all is that both Krillin and Tien got treated like rubbish while Roshi will be treated way cooler just out of nothing.

Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien doesn’t mean he’s stronger than them at all . So there’s not contradiction.
Roshi being treated better was the author will , same as Gohan worse than a17 and same as always .
Outlasting doesn’t necessary means be stronger , look at frost , he’s out and I bet there’s weaker participants .
Guys this is not mathematics, it’s a cartoon

[dragonball0900]

Don't you guys remember that he has "more experience" than Tien and Krillin?

Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien doesn’t mean he’s stronger than them at all . So there’s not contradiction.
Roshi being treated better was the author will , same as Gohan worse than a17 and same as always .
Outlasting doesn’t necessary means be stronger , look at frost , he’s out and I bet there’s weaker participants .
Guys this is not mathematics, it’s a cartoon

Except that if you compare him to someone like Frost, who is way way way stronger than all 3 of them, way stronger than Frieza from Namek and Cell (probably not as strong as Buu), then how could it work? Unless he's using the mafuba. The thing is, when Goku arrived to save Roshi, he outright told Goku that he didn't need his help and that he could manage (even after how EASILY Tien and Krillin were defeated, even the Kikoho was nothing for Frost). That's one of the most absurd things I ever heard throughout everything I've read or watched during Dragon Ball.

Then you have in the Anime that the reason why Frost stomped Roshi easily was because Roshi "was tired", which means that he could've done well if he wasn't, which is ridiculous. We have Roshi stomping Tien, and also defeating some U4 fighters with just using his strength. When he fought against Ganos, he said that he would be a threat to Goku and the others, but he still defeated him using his maximum strength, which is silly since Krillin supposedly is "the strongest earthling" and Tien, who had always trained, should be MUCH stronger than Roshi no matter what. Yet all I've seen are proof that Roshi surpassed them not just in technique, but in strength.

[prince212]

The thing is, when Goku arrived to save Roshi, he outright told Goku that he didn't need his help and that he could manage (even after how EASILY Tien and Krillin were defeated, even the Kikoho was nothing for Frost). That's one of the most absurd things I ever heard throughout everything I've read or watched during Dragon Ball.

That is called to be proud , and proud sometimes make you do stupid things , same in real life . He doesn’t wanna bother and be a distraction for the shake of the survival if you look it like that may be is not that absurd
I agree Roshi was overpowered in the anime , but here in the manga that is not happening , as I said before , outlasting doesn’t mean to be stronger .