"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu is a God. This is a fact. Zamasu was the North Kai of Universe 10 before becoming a Supreme Kai in-training, which means that he had 'attainted' a Godly status (which he had from birth, actually, since he was a Shinjin). So the anime was correct by referring to Zamasu as a 'God'. And yes, Gods have every right to create/destroy mortal civilizations. They are above mortals, this is clear, how could anyone deny this? The fate of mortals has literally been in the hands of the Gods in the last arc.

Is this a joke?

No, how exactly is it a joke? It is the duty of the Gods of Creation to nurture life, and likewise it's the duty of the Gods of Destruction to put an end to dangerous civilizations. It is by this system that the Multiverse is run. And at the top of all existence is the most powerful and supreme God, the King of All. Gods are above mortals, as mortals were created by Gods, and mortals could be erased by Gods if they behaved badly.

And it is true that the Kais have often been beaten back by evil enemies like Buu. It was part of Zamasu's agenda: to restore the glory of the Kais, and to put an end to the silly passivity of the Kais in face of evil.

[TKA]

While I get your point as to the representation of Gods in Dragon Ball, it seems like Toriyama has changed his mind about Gods in DB for his modern works.

No he hasn't. The god above all gods is a toddler. That toddler's two attendants are manservants. The gods of destruction are all selfish, childish, manchildren.

First of all, Beerus got the win in Battle of Gods so that he could preserve his dignity as the mighty God of Destruction, and it hasn't been until the Tournament of Power that mortals being able to surpass his level have been shown.

Beerus isn't the point of discussion. Anecdotally, many feel he's long since lost his fangs because the anime has him doing shit like dressing up like Monaka. If we're talking Beerus having any kind of honor or prestige left, then the manga does a better job at it. He can be goofy there, yes, but never to the point where you openly underestimate him. That moment where he uses "Hakai" in the anime is only so good because dozens of episodes of Beerus being useless made the viewer forget he was even a God of Destruction. In the manga, he just grabs Zamas and blasts him, and that was to be expected because this version of Beerus is still has stature to him.

If that isn't a Godly feat, then tell what is.

Brochacho, bromundo, brotendo—this isn't a power level thing. This isn't a "feats" thing. I'm talking about basic story composition here. Merged Zamas making a ki bird that shoots ki blasts means nothing to me. Zamas wiping out all of humanity, likewise, means nothing to me.

What I'm talking about is how he is presented. The anime treats him like a god and then goes "No, he's actually a hypocrite! Forget all that!"

Let me put it this way, and I hate to use Godwin's Law, but often times I find the most extreme examples to be able to convey the point best. You don't throw a parade for Hitler, and then at the parade you pick up a megaphone and say "Actually, Hitler sucked and he did lots of things wrong." Your message conflicts with what you were doing before.

As for the Kaioshins, of whom you were talking about, they have always been presented as divine beings above the likes of Kami and King Kai.

Literally not my point, ever. Reread my posts. All of them. Reread them.

Zamasu was presented as being a Kaioshin in-training, and the training he was receiving from Gowasu was about how to oversee the universe and the mortals inhabitating it. That, for me, is a Godly enough job.

Cool.

The real message of that is Zamas isn't good enough to be an actual Kaioshin, yet thinks himself so superior (despite ACTUAL Kaioshin thinking what he's doing is 10 different kinds of stupid). That's the irony inherent in the character—he thinks himself a god but he doesn't even qualify as one.

Like it or not, what JazzMazz was trying to convey through his post about 56 was just how much the storyboard and direction of that particular episode sold Goku Black and Zamasu as two formidable foes,

To be frank, I couldn't care less about what JazzMazz likes. I only replied to his post because he claimed that there was a "problem" with how Toyotaro presented Zamas and Black. I challenged that claim. Whether he likes Zamas more or not means nothing to me.

and that has nothing to do about it being Dragon Ball-ish or not.

You'll find that everything has to do with an idea being Dragonball-ish or not. I don't expect a story about divinity vs humanity in a dragonball story because I don't think Dragonball is equipped to explain the philosophy behind that. The anime trying to approach it from that angle, and then failing to adequately flesh out the concepts it put forward—well maybe they should stick to telling more Dragonball-ish stories.

Goku Black and Zamasu were still full of shit in the anime

That's the problem. The anime wants to have its cake and eat it too. You can't be presenting these two, from the way they're animated, to the music that plays when they do things, to the way their attacks are drawn—you can't do all of that and then go "Uh, ignore all that ostentatious shit we did. These two really are just full of shit, haha." That isn't how it works. This is a similar case as glorifying Frieza, when he's supposed to be a smarmy, underhanded shitheel.

The anime gave the audience a much better representation of Goku Black and Zamasu, and that was thanks to all the things JazzMazz talked about in his post.

The manga gave the audiences a much better representation of Goku Black and Zamas, and that was thanks to all the things that various users have talked about in their posts.

See how silly that statement is?

Whether you like that rendition more or not is something I don't care to discuss. The points Senor Mazz made don't do much to further the narrative being put forth. Goku Black stabbing Gowasu (who is a MUCH better character in the manga due to having actual agency) in the gut and gloating as his master dies in his hands is a moment that shows clear his villainy and how far into mania Zamas has descended.

In the anime, what does Goku Black hugging Zamas while the camera pans around them says? He likes himself, I guess. But there's so many other moments showing that, that I don't see a reason to include it. The anime is bloated, inundated with nonsensical moments like those that undermine the tension it's trying to build.

I cannot believe that I am using this word and it will be the only time here on kanzenshuu but the only "bullshit" is coming from you guys. Dragon Ball is the very definition of a generic anime. Just because Toriyama-san "lives in the moment" it does not make it less of a generic anime..

Bro, this is some Seinfeld is Unfunny stuff.

Dragonball set the trends that everything follows right now. Dragonball isn't at all comparable to the buckets and buckets of awful, paint-by-the-numbers shonen out there. There's a reason Dragonball dominates the world while flavors of the month like Naruto, Fairy Tail and the like have their moments and then disappear from the cultural zeitgeist.

Seriously, don't argue this. If you keep doing it, someone will start posting all the ways Dragonball changed the game. Even Super is full of subversive stuff, with Zamas and Goku Black being a good example of this (in the manga).

[The gr]

I agree. He is doing great this arc though I do have problems with his pacing. It's going a bit too fast for me.

Yeah that annoys that this arc is going too fast and Hit got nothing pisses me off while Frost is on top of the leaderboard, we'll just have to wait for the full thing to see what happens.

[TKA]

Yeah that annoys that this arc is going too fast and Hit got nothing pisses me off while Frost is on top of the leaderboard, we'll just have to wait for the full thing to see what happens.

The story should matter more than how many characters are eliminated by whom. Wait for the chapter to be out and actually read it, instead of making judgments based on context-less leaks.

[The gr]

The story should matter more than how many characters are eliminated by whom. Wait for the chapter to be out and actually read it, instead of making judgments based on context-less leaks.

Yeah that's true which is why I said we'll have to wait for the execution if it's dramatic or flat and of course people are gonna complained 24/7 about this since that's the only thing they care about.

[IM21]

I agree. He is doing great this arc though I do have problems with his pacing. It's going a bit too fast for me.

Yeah that annoys that this arc is going too fast and Hit got nothing pisses me off while Frost is on top of the leaderboard, we'll just have to wait for the full thing to see what happens.

How is it going fast? There's still like 60 fighters to go. Do you want this to drag out for 2 years or something. The anime did that and it sucked.

[Zamasu55]

In this chapter there's gonna be only one elimination, so it's not fast at all this month.

[sintzu]

I cannot believe that I am using this word and it will be the only time here on kanzenshuu but the only "bullshit" is coming from you guys. Dragon Ball is the very definition of a generic anime. Just because Toriyama-san "lives in the moment" it does not make it less of a generic anime. It is all about the traits. And just like I wanted to tell the other guy before I accidentally deleted my own post: It does not matter who or what is setting the trend. If I decide to run around shirtless and start a hype through which everyone runs around shirtless so it becomes the norm then I am part of the norm. I am not free of this classification just because I was the initiator or was "not thinking about what could happen because of that". Also Dragon Ball is about generic as something can get. It is great that you all want to defend your show like it is something immaculate and original - but it is not. And there is no reason to defend it like it is as Dragon Ball is not God. It is supposed to be a lighthearted comedy, silly, with action and is supposed to entertain with it. And it takes elements from tons of things that happened before it or that happened inbetween the life of those who worked on it (e.g. Toriyama-san). Dragon Ball is absolutely generic. And being influential when it comes to "what newer anime take from it", which is most of the time more for flash and style anyway, will not make it any less generic.

It may be generic when compared to things like fullmetal alchemist or any newer anime that's full of twists, turns and other ideas but you have to keep in mind that when DB was written in the mid 80s-early 90s, it was very original which is why it inspired so much and changed the industry the way it did.

That's regarding the original manga, Super on the other hand is a different story as the industry grew and changed within the near 20 years DB was absent in yet Super did nothing to live up to the standards that were set within that time frame.

[Doctor.]

The real message of that is Zamas isn't good enough to be an actual Kaioshin, yet thinks himself so superior (despite ACTUAL Kaioshin thinking what he's doing is 10 different kinds of stupid). That's the irony inherent in the character—he thinks himself a god but he doesn't even qualify as one.

Okay, and how does this contradict the anime's portrayal of Zamasu? He's treated as a joke. He gets punched in the middle of a speech twice, he cries melodramatically and Vegetto mocks him for it, and Goku, of all people, is freaked out by Black's exaggerated personality. I don't see how the anime plays it straight with merged Zamasu when he is intentionally over-the-top, to signify how ridiculous his ideals are. This is clear when Vegetto mocks him and Zamasu starts crying "for the world."

In contrast, the manga does treat Zamasu seriously. They listen to his words and try to reason with him; Gowasu stupidly tries to turn Black over to his side and Goku tries to turn Zamasu against Black. They look upon him with disdain in the same way they look upon every other villain, but they're still taking him seriously as a credible threat - they have to, because he is a threat. Outside of a snarky comment from Vegeta, Zamasu and Black's ridiculous diatribes about justice are met with serious responses instead of being ignored or mocked like in the anime.

You're projecting your own view of the characters onto the manga. There is nothing there that is subversive. The characters are played straight. The anime tries to play it straight at times, but it does have moments where it recognizes the ridiculousness of the situation.

[TKA]

Okay, and how does this contradict the anime's portrayal of Zamasu?

Maybe if you didn't take that particular point out of context you'd know.

Emperior made a point I saw as cursory at best. The intention was to present a stronger argument from what he explained. Then later in my post I go into why the anime fails in its depiction of the character—namely that it ignores the fact that Zamas is a poser until the very last minute, all the while showing him being godly and shit.

Go back a few pages, there's a very long post with screenshots showing how the anime showed he's an amazing, divine, beautiful, transcendent, majestic, GOLDEN GOD (but then they also try to say "Nah, he's just full of shit lol.")

[Doctor.]

Okay, and how does this contradict the anime's portrayal of Zamasu?

Maybe if you didn't take that particular point out of context you'd know.

Emperior made a point I saw as cursory at best. The intention was to present a stronger argument from what he explained. Then later in my post I go into why the anime fails in its depiction of the character—namely that it ignores the fact that Zamas is a poser until the very last minute, all the while showing him being godly and shit.

Go back a few pages, there's a very long post with screenshots showing how the anime showed he's an amazing, divine, beautiful, transcendent, majestic, GOLDEN GOD (but then they also try to say "Nah, he's just full of shit lol.")

I read everything. I'm not going to quote the entire conversation and take up half the page. I don't agree with JazzMazz and I'm not arguing for him. You haven't replied to anything I said. I specifically gave you examples that contradict your argument that he was portrayed as godly up until the last moment. And I also make the argument that the manga's the one that plays the characters straight, which you also didn't address.

[Saiga]

Yeah that annoys that this arc is going too fast and Hit got nothing pisses me off while Frost is on top of the leaderboard, we'll just have to wait for the full thing to see what happens.

The story should matter more than how many characters are eliminated by whom. Wait for the chapter to be out and actually read it, instead of making judgments based on context-less leaks.

I've been following the thread sporadically but this seems to be a trend, I at least saw it with the past two chapters.

Leaks start coming out 'This is awful!' - actual chapter comes out 'hey that wasn't bad'.

Might seem hypocritical given that I've been very critical of Super's anime and movie spoilers as they came out but those things tended to be just as bad as the spoilers framed them so eh.

[Miracles]

In this chapter there's gonna be only one elimination, so it's not fast at all this month.

It's possible that there are off-panel ring outs.

[EGonzo]

The real message of that is Zamas isn't good enough to be an actual Kaioshin, yet thinks himself so superior (despite ACTUAL Kaioshin thinking what he's doing is 10 different kinds of stupid). That's the irony inherent in the character—he thinks himself a god but he doesn't even qualify as one.

Okay, and how does this contradict the anime's portrayal of Zamasu? He's treated as a joke. He gets punched in the middle of a speech twice, he cries melodramatically and Vegetto mocks him for it, and Goku, of all people, is freaked out by Black's exaggerated personality. I don't see how the anime plays it straight with merged Zamasu when he is intentionally over-the-top, to signify how ridiculous his ideals are. This is clear when Vegetto mocks him and Zamasu starts crying "for the world."

In contrast, the manga does treat Zamasu seriously. They listen to his words and try to reason with him; Gowasu stupidly tries to turn Black over to his side and Goku tries to turn Zamasu against Black. They look upon him with disdain in the same way they look upon every other villain, but they're still taking him seriously as a credible threat - they have to, because he is a threat. Outside of a snarky comment from Vegeta, Zamasu and Black's ridiculous diatribes about justice are met with serious responses instead of being ignored or mocked like in the anime.

You're projecting your own view of the characters onto the manga. There is nothing there that is subversive. The characters are played straight. The anime tries to play it straight at times, but it does have moments where it recognizes the ridiculousness of the situation.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

In the manga they never once take Zamas or Black seriously. During the two fights they have Goku and mostly Vegeta are endlessly mocking the two, and never once take them seriously. There's only one moment when Black was stronger, and that was more because Blue's power leakage and not him actually getting stronger. In the "final" fight (before they fuse) again Vegeta is making fun of him and not once taking the fight seriously ("salty, Mr. Rose?", "i'll tell you if you're a good boy", etc.). Also, the two never take their own ideals of justice seriously. There's one mention by Black of humans destroying the planet, quickly drop that and Fused Zamasu wants to destroy everything that isn't him ("I'm the only intelligence that needs to exist!" and "I'll wipe you out along with the galaxy..."). So I think you might have it backwards, because the manga is where the two villains are weak (because they never actually get stronger than the heroes), whiny (Black loses his cool over every little thing, like them being in the future, Vegeta smiling, etc.), and never taken seriously (again, Vegeta mocking Black during both fights and never actually having to struggle except when Blue drains his stamina). Even against Fused Zamasu Goku and Vegeta are taking turns against him instead of working together, and is treated as a game more than anything else.

I rambled a lot, so I'll keep the anime part short-ish: Zamasu and Black take their justice ideals seriously, all the way to his physical death believing he was in the right in killing the ningens (the crying part, while funny, showed that he still thought he was doing the right thing and you can argue he felt regret in the destruction he caused, and there's that scene with Black saying the destroyed world looks sad but soon will turn into a paradise once the ningens are gone, among other moments). Aside from the fight in the past and before Rose, everyone takes Black and Zamasu seriously, especially because Black and Fused Zamasu really are stronger than them. We don't see them joke around and mock the opponents (Vegeta is quiet most of the fights), and Vegeta pretty much agrees to fuse right away (he does complain, but mostly for comedy) because he knew it was the only way to keep up at that point, instead of having to relearn the lesson he already had in Z via Trunks's speech.

Anyway, that's how I see things. I've re-read the Future Trunks arc a few times because the fights are fun, and I haven't really seen what you see.

[Exline]

I agree. He is doing great this arc though I do have problems with his pacing. It's going a bit too fast for me.

Yeah that annoys that this arc is going too fast and Hit got nothing pisses me off while Frost is on top of the leaderboard, we'll just have to wait for the full thing to see what happens.

How is it going fast? There's still like 60 fighters to go. Do you want this to drag out for 2 years or something. The anime did that and it sucked.

The fact that fighters need to be eliminated off-screen is certainly too fast of a pace. The pace doesn't have to drag. It shouldn't be too slow, nor should it be too fast. Chapter 33 was perfect in the manner of how characters were eliminated. Same goes for Chapter 34 barring the off-screen eliminations. I would give it a pass because it certainly invokes the Battle Royal Feel the anime failed at conveying most of the time. It should not be done frequently throughout the tournament because that means less fights for us to witness. Toyotaro can easily write these eliminations so that other characters besides U7 can get something done.

I don't have a problem with certain characters getting 0 eliminations. I don't think the number of eliminations matters tbh, just how the elimination is done is what matters to me. I am not a fan of such half-assed eliminations like Team U7 received in the anime (Looks at Piccolo).

Eliminations should be used to convey how powerful and threatening the eliminator is. It can be done for gags as well which I appreciate, as well as for explaining mistakes certain characters make (Like Basil and Lavenda jumping in the air when they are so close to the edge, making them perfect targets.)

There is just no point in doing this Battle Royale if you're just going to eliminate every fighter so we can get to a 1v1 Fight. Well, that's how I see it. I can't speak for everyone. Most of you that I have replied to are for fodderizing everyone just to see Full-Power Jiren Vs. UI Goku straight away...

[Omniboy]

There's only one moment when Black was stronger, and that was more because Blue's power leakage and not him actually getting stronger.

Actually I don't remember this part. I'm sure that it was Black completely overpowering Vegeta because he kept gaining more and more power, and became very strong There was no mention of stamina drainage.



EDIT: Nevermind. I remember now. Goku mentioned that Blue drains a lot of energy, which I guess does explains Vegeta's lost the first time. So Vegeta had to find a way to use all of blue's power so he used both super saiyan god and super saiyan blue to get the most out of it's energy. I apologize. I sometimes forget things.

[Saiga]

There's only one moment when Black was stronger, and that was more because Blue's power leakage and not him actually getting stronger.

Actually I don't remember this part. I'm sure that it was Black completely overpowering Vegeta because he kept gaining more and more power, and became very strong There was no mention of stamina drainage.



EDIT: Nevermind. I remember now. Goku mentioned that Blue drains a lot of energy, which I guess does explains Vegeta's lost the first time. So Vegeta had to find a way to use all of blue's power so he used both super saiyan god and super saiyan blue to get the most out of it's energy. I apologize. I sometimes forget things.

It's both. Black is getting more powerful as he fights Vegeta, and Vegeta's only getting more tired. Vegeta takes a senzu, but doesn't get a power up, so Rose Black was able to overpower him.

[TheMikado]

So spoilers are Hit is ringed out. I’m not a Hitfan but would hope it happens in the best way possible. MSSB Goku and Hit takes on Jiren only to find he’s too powerful. Hit decides their only chance to win is to kill Jiren and decides to attempt an Assassin skill. Jiren is too powerful and it fails resulting in Jiren ringing out Hit.

[Kenneth La Torre]

So spoilers are Hit is ringed out. I’m not a Hitfan but would hope it happens in the best way possible. MSSB Goku and Hit takes on Jiren only to find he’s too powerful. Hit decides their only chance to win is to kill Jiren and decides to attempt an Assassin skill. Jiren is too powerful and it fails resulting in Jiren ringing out Hit.

So hit actually tries to assassinate jiren here?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Apparently, these are the first images released from the chapter

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]