"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[reecehoward]

He is stronger, just not faster because of Roshi's false Ultra Instinct

You also previously stated that Roshi did better than Goku, but...
1. Jiren was probably more suppressed against Roshi
2. Even then, Goku visibly hurt Jiren and survived powerful direct hits, whereas Roshi didn't ever hit Jiren and was defeated by a wimpy karate chop.

Again, how convenient that Roshi is just now showcasing this freaking amazing ability so late in the series. I understand it was so Goku would be able use UI himself. But it doesn't make sense, no matter how you write it. Roshi has never demonstrated this, or anything close, ever. They wrote it into the chapter simply to transition Goku into UI.

Poor writing is poor writing. It's pretty clear, I feel.

"Jiren was probably more supressed." That's not the picture that is neatly presented to us in chapter 39. Goku powers up, lands a hit, but then Jiren decides to shrug off Goku's highest power level. It's only after this, that Roshi out performs Goku. Even if Jiren had reduced his power level from what it was just seconds ago, it shouldn't matter against someone like Roshi.

I believe a fully serious Jiren would stomp Roshi, of course. But Jiren shouldn't have to get serious against Roshi in a 1v1 fist fight. Especailly since he's in a tournament and was just throwing hands with Goku seconds ago.

Roshi has this ability for the same reason that Tien didn't use the Kikoho against the androids. It is bad writing, but not in a way that isn't standard for dragon ball. Roshi is obviously not supposed to be strong, and certainly not stronger than Goku. Also, the way you say, "seconds ago," is textbook manipulative wording. Jiren waited as Roshi had an entire conversation with Goku, so it's not like Roshi jumped him out of nowhere. It's also not a hassle for these characters to change their power level. The fact that Roshi wasn't sliced in half by Jiren's karate chop should be proof that Jiren was extremely suppressed.

But...Tien has always had Kikoho AND used it on Cell.lol Kikoho has always been broken, though one can argue that it shouldn't have been able to push back Cell at all, I'd concede. Even THEN, the gap between Tien and Cell isn't anywhere close to the gap between Roshi and Jiren, like at least Semi Perfect Cell's power is a quantifiable amount and Tien was atleast a percentage of his power. Roshi is less than a percentage of a percentage of Jiren. In no way can it pass, which is why so many people, even some of the most hardcore manga fans are calling it out as such. There has never been a gap this wide in the series between two opponents...

[reecehoward]

Roshi only used a bootleg version of UI while Goku actually tapped into legit UI after being reminded by his teacher of the principles. That's not more skilled that's just being more aware of ones teachings.

I feel the issue with many people is that it was, in fact, Roshi that was needed to be the "reminder" to Goku on how to move well. Bootleg version or not, it's trash writing. As I stated before, why hasn't Roshi ever demonstrated an ability that can do anything remotely close to what he did vs Jiren until now. It's like if all of a sudden Yamcha was able to tangle with Beerus, even for a moment.

And Roshi performed better than Goku. He demonstrated better skills than Goku, clearly showing that Roshi was better in that moment, bootleg or not, shortlived or not. It's just bad writing. I think Roshi can get a cool little bit of " honor the turtle master, but not the way it was done in the manga.

Roshi didn't do better than Goku cause when both implemented their teachings Goku used UI and Roshi did not. Showing who is the superior, not too mention Jiren only recognized UI Goku as the one who fought the hardest against him. Not Roshi, so you are wrong. And how does Roshi not moving before like this prove he shouldn't have such ability? The fact that Roshi knew the movement principle from the past means he has it. Regardless if it was displayed or not cause the story says he and Goku know these same principles. It's not bad writing but continuity.

Which makes ZERO sense! UI Goku didn't even get a chance to fight Jiren.lol He faded out before he could even throw a single hit.

[Miracles]

I feel the issue with many people is that it was, in fact, Roshi that was needed to be the "reminder" to Goku on how to move well. Bootleg version or not, it's trash writing. As I stated before, why hasn't Roshi ever demonstrated an ability that can do anything remotely close to what he did vs Jiren until now. It's like if all of a sudden Yamcha was able to tangle with Beerus, even for a moment.

And Roshi performed better than Goku. He demonstrated better skills than Goku, clearly showing that Roshi was better in that moment, bootleg or not, shortlived or not. It's just bad writing. I think Roshi can get a cool little bit of " honor the turtle master, but not the way it was done in the manga.

Roshi didn't do better than Goku cause when both implemented their teachings Goku used UI and Roshi did not. Showing who is the superior, not too mention Jiren only recognized UI Goku as the one who fought the hardest against him. Not Roshi, so you are wrong. And how does Roshi not moving before like this prove he shouldn't have such ability? The fact that Roshi knew the movement principle from the past means he has it. Regardless if it was displayed or not cause the story says he and Goku know these same principles. It's not bad writing but continuity.

Which makes ZERO sense! UI Goku didn't even get a chance to fight Jiren.lol He faded out before he could even throw a single hit.

UI Goku dodged Jiren so miraculously that it made Jiren even question what Goku did. It even got Jiren's attention afterwards.

[Noah]

Seeing how Toyotaro is in such a rush to end this, I guess the plot related to Broly should be more interesting than this mess.

[TKA]

I-I think you people just aren't used to proper pacing that you all think things are being rushed. You realize that there are stories way more involved than this that end in less than 2 hours right?

1 manga chapter is the equivalent of 2 and a half episodes of a properly-paced anime. The Tournament of Power arc (starting at chapter 27) is 32 episodes thus far.

[Bergamo]

Again, how convenient that Roshi is just now showcasing this freaking amazing ability so late in the series. I understand it was so Goku would be able use UI himself. But it doesn't make sense, no matter how you write it. Roshi has never demonstrated this, or anything close, ever. They wrote it into the chapter simply to transition Goku into UI.

Poor writing is poor writing. It's pretty clear, I feel.

"Jiren was probably more supressed." That's not the picture that is neatly presented to us in chapter 39. Goku powers up, lands a hit, but then Jiren decides to shrug off Goku's highest power level. It's only after this, that Roshi out performs Goku. Even if Jiren had reduced his power level from what it was just seconds ago, it shouldn't matter against someone like Roshi.

I believe a fully serious Jiren would stomp Roshi, of course. But Jiren shouldn't have to get serious against Roshi in a 1v1 fist fight. Especailly since he's in a tournament and was just throwing hands with Goku seconds ago.

Roshi has this ability for the same reason that Tien didn't use the Kikoho against the androids. It is bad writing, but not in a way that isn't standard for dragon ball. Roshi is obviously not supposed to be strong, and certainly not stronger than Goku. Also, the way you say, "seconds ago," is textbook manipulative wording. Jiren waited as Roshi had an entire conversation with Goku, so it's not like Roshi jumped him out of nowhere. It's also not a hassle for these characters to change their power level. The fact that Roshi wasn't sliced in half by Jiren's karate chop should be proof that Jiren was extremely suppressed.

But...Tien has always had Kikoho AND used it on Cell.lol Kikoho has always been broken, though one can argue that it shouldn't have been able to push back Cell at all, I'd concede. Even THEN, the gap between Tien and Cell isn't anywhere close to the gap between Roshi and Jiren, like at least Semi Perfect Cell's power is a quantifiable amount and Tien was atleast a percentage of his power. Roshi is less than a percentage of a percentage of Jiren. In no way can it pass, which is why so many people, even some of the most hardcore manga fans are calling it out as such. There has never been a gap this wide in the series between two opponents...

Kikoho had not always been broken. He scratched Nappa a little bit and Nappa was just playing around. Cell shouldn't have even batted an eye.

[PFM18]

I-I think you people just aren't used to proper pacing that you all think things are being rushed. You realize that there are stories way more involved than this that end in less than 2 hours right?

1 manga chapter is the equivalent of 2 and a half episodes of a properly-paced anime. The Tournament of Power arc (starting at chapter 27) is 32 episodes thus far.

so then:

1 manga chapter = 2.5 episodes
44 manga pages = 50 minutes of anime
1 manga page = 1.14 minutes of anime

so then the sequence in which we got 4 universes erased in 8 pages it would equate to seeing 4 Universes being erased over the course of less than half an episode. If that were to happen in the anime people would be outraged. That is not proper pacing, that is downright awful pacing. Kale going around and massaging 4 universes made it abundantly clear to any unbiased reader that this is being rushed and it is being paced poorly.

[Rakurai]

Seeing how Toyotaro is in such a rush to end this, I guess the plot related to Broly should be more interesting than this mess.

Or Shueisha bureaucracy demanded that he finish the manga in time to write Broly-film chapters to hype up the film.

If he didn't rush the Black saga while the ToP was still ongoing, there's no reason to believe he would rush the ToP unless there was another very good reason to do so.

[Marlowe89]

I-I think you people just aren't used to proper pacing that you all think things are being rushed. You realize that there are stories way more involved than this that end in less than 2 hours right?

1 manga chapter is the equivalent of 2 and a half episodes of a properly-paced anime. The Tournament of Power arc (starting at chapter 27) is 32 episodes thus far.

It's a broken record at this point. The anime gave people such a ridiculously, hilariously unwarranted sense of importance for small fry universes that they're ignoring the characters that matter to complain about Tweedledee and Tweedledum not getting more spotlight than necessary.

Universe 6, a team that's actually integral to the story, got three chapters dedicated to them. The pacing is the same as the Future Trunks arc.

[Pokesamus217]

I-I think you people just aren't used to proper pacing that you all think things are being rushed. You realize that there are stories way more involved than this that end in less than 2 hours right?

1 manga chapter is the equivalent of 2 and a half episodes of a properly-paced anime. The Tournament of Power arc (starting at chapter 27) is 32 episodes thus far.

It's a broken record at this point. The anime gave people such a ridiculously, hilariously unwarranted sense of importance for small fry universes that they're ignoring the characters that matter to complain about Tweedledee and Tweedledum not getting more spotlight than necessary.

Universe 6, a team that's actually integral to the story, got three chapters dedicated to them. The pacing is the same as the Future Trunks arc.

The Future Trunks arc started to drag it self near then end, meanwhile the ToP has been going at a breakneck pace with only the most recent chapter, taking things slower.

[ssj3kakarot]

Roshi has this ability for the same reason that Tien didn't use the Kikoho against the androids. It is bad writing, but not in a way that isn't standard for dragon ball. Roshi is obviously not supposed to be strong, and certainly not stronger than Goku. Also, the way you say, "seconds ago," is textbook manipulative wording. Jiren waited as Roshi had an entire conversation with Goku, so it's not like Roshi jumped him out of nowhere. It's also not a hassle for these characters to change their power level. The fact that Roshi wasn't sliced in half by Jiren's karate chop should be proof that Jiren was extremely suppressed.

But...Tien has always had Kikoho AND used it on Cell.lol Kikoho has always been broken, though one can argue that it shouldn't have been able to push back Cell at all, I'd concede. Even THEN, the gap between Tien and Cell isn't anywhere close to the gap between Roshi and Jiren, like at least Semi Perfect Cell's power is a quantifiable amount and Tien was atleast a percentage of his power. Roshi is less than a percentage of a percentage of Jiren. In no way can it pass, which is why so many people, even some of the most hardcore manga fans are calling it out as such. There has never been a gap this wide in the series between two opponents...

Kikoho had not always been broken. He scratched Nappa a little bit and Nappa was just playing around. Cell shouldn't have even batted an eye.

EXACTLY! That's been my point all along. And Roshi should never have been able to dodge Jiren. It was bad writing with Tien and Cell, same scenario with Roshi and Jiren.

[alakazam^]

I-I think you people just aren't used to proper pacing that you all think things are being rushed. You realize that there are stories way more involved than this that end in less than 2 hours right?

1 manga chapter is the equivalent of 2 and a half episodes of a properly-paced anime. The Tournament of Power arc (starting at chapter 27) is 32 episodes thus far.

It's a broken record at this point. The anime gave people such a ridiculously, hilariously unwarranted sense of importance for small fry universes that they're ignoring the characters that matter to complain about Tweedledee and Tweedledum not getting more spotlight than necessary.

Universe 6, a team that's actually integral to the story, got three chapters dedicated to them. The pacing is the same as the Future Trunks arc.

It's pretty sad when people are so conceited they think they're in some higher ground lecturing others what storytelling is and should be when they clearly have no idea. No idea why the anime continues to be talked about here or why no ones has come to the conclusion that Toriyama is pleased enough with it to the point he continues working with Toei? We know he once complained about something and that he reads the scripts, so, if he is still on board...

A broken record it is.

[Marlowe89]

It's pretty sad when people are so conceited they think they're in some higher ground lecturing others what storytelling is and should be when they clearly have no idea.

You know what's more depressing? Your cop-out implication that nobody should be allowed to express how they think a story should be told with any conviction, which is literally what everyone in this thread has been doing on both sides.

Address my actual argument next time or don't reply to me. I don't have time for ad hominem bullshit.

We know he once complained about something and that he reads the scripts, so, if he is still on board...

He once complained about the anime (read: NOT the manga) and was still on board, so whatever you're trying to say isn't saying much about the quality of the anime's writing.

[reecehoward]

Roshi has this ability for the same reason that Tien didn't use the Kikoho against the androids. It is bad writing, but not in a way that isn't standard for dragon ball. Roshi is obviously not supposed to be strong, and certainly not stronger than Goku. Also, the way you say, "seconds ago," is textbook manipulative wording. Jiren waited as Roshi had an entire conversation with Goku, so it's not like Roshi jumped him out of nowhere. It's also not a hassle for these characters to change their power level. The fact that Roshi wasn't sliced in half by Jiren's karate chop should be proof that Jiren was extremely suppressed.

But...Tien has always had Kikoho AND used it on Cell.lol Kikoho has always been broken, though one can argue that it shouldn't have been able to push back Cell at all, I'd concede. Even THEN, the gap between Tien and Cell isn't anywhere close to the gap between Roshi and Jiren, like at least Semi Perfect Cell's power is a quantifiable amount and Tien was atleast a percentage of his power. Roshi is less than a percentage of a percentage of Jiren. In no way can it pass, which is why so many people, even some of the most hardcore manga fans are calling it out as such. There has never been a gap this wide in the series between two opponents...

Kikoho had not always been broken. He scratched Nappa a little bit and Nappa was just playing around. Cell shouldn't have even batted an eye.

And I would not try to argue otherwise, which I already conceded to that point in my comment.lol

[alakazam^]

You know what's more depressing? Your cop-out implication that nobody should be allowed to express how they think a story should be told with any conviction, which is literally what everyone in this thread has been doing on both sides.

Address my actual argument next time or don't reply to me. I don't have time for ad hominem bullshit.

He once complained about the anime (read: NOT the manga) and was still on board, so whatever you're trying to say isn't saying much about the quality of the anime's writing.

Yeah, except I never said that. I don't entertain the "anime sucks, manga is great" routine, but that doesn't mean people can't "express how they think a story should be". Actually, I fail to see how you fit into that when you tend to inform us what "basic storytelling" is, what a battle royal is and how it can/should be shown. That's a lot of conviction, don't you think? Good to know it's just an opinion, then, as it means you don't need to keep repeating it ad nauseum and stop demeaning people that wanted to know more about other Universes.

I already addressed your argument previously when I said there was no reason Kale couldn't have just wiped out 2 or 3 Universes and leaving the others to be dealt with in another fashion, so keep that attitude to yourself because I'm pretty sure many more people don't have the time for double standards and have to put up with them as well.

Sure, we don't know about Toriyama complaining about the manga, he just corrects panels and dialogues because he finds them perfect, I guess. It says a lot because it shows he isn't that displeased with what Toei is doing unlike what many people would like to believe. Not only that but we don't even know what he complained about.

[Bergamo]

But...Tien has always had Kikoho AND used it on Cell.lol Kikoho has always been broken, though one can argue that it shouldn't have been able to push back Cell at all, I'd concede. Even THEN, the gap between Tien and Cell isn't anywhere close to the gap between Roshi and Jiren, like at least Semi Perfect Cell's power is a quantifiable amount and Tien was atleast a percentage of his power. Roshi is less than a percentage of a percentage of Jiren. In no way can it pass, which is why so many people, even some of the most hardcore manga fans are calling it out as such. There has never been a gap this wide in the series between two opponents...

Kikoho had not always been broken. He scratched Nappa a little bit and Nappa was just playing around. Cell shouldn't have even batted an eye.

EXACTLY! That's been my point all along. And Roshi should never have been able to dodge Jiren. It was bad writing with Tien and Cell, same scenario with Roshi and Jiren.

I've never been arguing that Roshi vs Jiren isn't bad writing. I've been arguing that the teaching moment between Goku and Roshi is good and that the absurdity of the fight doesn't ruin the chapter.

[ssj3kakarot]

Kikoho had not always been broken. He scratched Nappa a little bit and Nappa was just playing around. Cell shouldn't have even batted an eye.

EXACTLY! That's been my point all along. And Roshi should never have been able to dodge Jiren. It was bad writing with Tien and Cell, same scenario with Roshi and Jiren.

I've never been arguing that Roshi vs Jiren isn't bad writing. I've been arguing that the teaching moment between Goku and Roshi is good and that the absurdity of the fight doesn't ruin the chapter.

The teaching moment was terrible because the premise behind what was being taught. I'm all for Roshi still being able to give valuable lessons to people, even if it is Goku. Just not in the way it was done. Also, I never implied that it ruined the chapter. Just like Tien vs Cell didnt ruin the cell arc. It just is a major "wtf" moment that shouldnt haven been there in the 1st place.

[Marlowe89]

Good to know it's just an opinion

Uhh... yeah?

The fact that I had to inform you of this at all would have been perplexing if someone else didn't already try to explain this to you a while ago only for you to consistently miss their point while also demeaning people you don't agree with by insulting their character and calling them conceited instead of addressing what they said.

This might blow your mind, but everything on this forum is an opinion. That's the nature of discussion boards, and I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you with a "JUST MY OPINION, BRO" disclaimer every time I make a post.

If you're concerned about my arguments having a similar message, too fucking bad. Again, that applies to almost everyone in this thread, but it's weird how you only seem to come out of the woodwork whenever the anime is brought up in an unfavorable light.

Sure, we don't know about Toriyama complaining about the manga, he just corrects panels and dialogues because he finds them perfect, I guess.

Except I never said Toriyama thought the manga was perfect. I'm saying he specifically complained about the anime and still remained on board with the anime regardless, so whatever point you were trying to make doesn't actually insinuate anything.

If we're drawing comparisons, what I can tell you is that Toriyama believes Toyotaro comes the closest to emulating his style. That's straight from the horse's mouth.

[alakazam^]

stuff

If you're concerned about my arguments having a similar message, too fucking bad. Again, that applies to almost everyone in this thread, but it's weird how you only seem to come out of the woodwork whenever the anime is brought up in an unfavorable light.

Except I never said Toriyama thought the manga was perfect. I'm saying he specifically complained about the anime and still remained on board with the anime regardless, so whatever point you were trying to make doesn't actually insinuate anything.

If we're drawing comparisons, what I can tell you is that Toriyama believes Toyotaro comes the closest to emulating his style. That's straight from the horse's mouth.

Sure, I totally didn't know any of what. Thanks.

Well, if you keep repeating the same stuff, it stops having any value, right? But, actually, what annoys me more is the blatant double standard. It's somewhat insulting, that monthly routine. Besides, as I've already pointed out, this is the manga thread, not the anime one. I know, I know, you'll keep comparing them besides it being off-topic but it would be nice if your opinions didn't boil down to "the anime sucks because I said so", disguised into "basic storytelling" and stuff. Also, if you don't like me doing it... "too bad"?

No, you just stressed Toriyama complained about the anime "NOT the manga", which was my point. It still stands, though, because if he was that displeased with the way Toei does things he'd probably quit after Champa's tournament. Or maybe not, who knows. What we know is that he complained, stuck around to write four arcs (always communicating with Toei) and no one is forcing him.

Well, obviously, since Toei's staff doesn't draw manga.

[Bergamo]

stuff

If you're concerned about my arguments having a similar message, too fucking bad. Again, that applies to almost everyone in this thread, but it's weird how you only seem to come out of the woodwork whenever the anime is brought up in an unfavorable light.

Except I never said Toriyama thought the manga was perfect. I'm saying he specifically complained about the anime and still remained on board with the anime regardless, so whatever point you were trying to make doesn't actually insinuate anything.

If we're drawing comparisons, what I can tell you is that Toriyama believes Toyotaro comes the closest to emulating his style. That's straight from the horse's mouth.

Sure, I totally didn't know any of what. Thanks.

Well, if you keep repeating the same stuff, it stops having any value, right? But, actually, what annoys me more is the blatant double standard. It's somewhat insulting, that monthly routine. Besides, as I've already pointed out, this is the manga thread, not the anime one. I know, I know, you'll keep comparing them besides it being off-topic but it would be nice if your opinions didn't boil down to "the anime sucks because I said so", disguised into "basic storytelling" and stuff. Also, if you don't like me doing it... "too bad"?

No, you just stressed Toriyama complained about the anime "NOT the manga", which was my point. It still stands, though, because if he was that displeased with the way Toei does things he'd probably quit after Champa's tournament. Or maybe not, who knows. What we know is that he complained, stuck around to write four arcs (always communicating with Toei) and no one is forcing him.

Well, obviously, since Toei's staff doesn't draw manga.

I will say this one more time. The anime can provide useful context when discussing the manga. By your logic people shouldn't mention DBZ in any DBS thread because it isn't the topic.