"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[alakazam^]

I think the problem here is in the way the text was translated. I don't know what the translator was thinking about but "I did them untold harm. So no, I can't allow even one more of them to perish" isn't how Vegeeta speaks and comes out as sounding really odd.

[prince212]

I think the problem here is in the way the text was translated. I don't know what the translator was thinking about but "I did them untold harm. So no, I can't allow even one more of them to perish" isn't how Vegeeta speaks and comes out as sounding really odd.

Right , it’s odd , when spoilers came I read some fan translation that meaning the same .. sounded better

[TKA]

It's crazy how much this thread flip flops.

People were mad at Vegeta for "being disrespectful" to Whis when he said he would do things his way instead of how a "master" tells him to fight, and now people are mad that Vegeta is being more heartfelt?

[Cipher]

As someone who tweet a fan translation of Vegeta's lines during leaks, I'll stand fully behind the way Caleb Cook wrote it for this release.

Vegeta's line is "ナメック星人には迷惑をかけた過去があってな　これ以上数を減らすわけには行けない."

Which Cook translated as "I have a troubled history with these Namekians. I did them untold harm. So, no, I can't allow even one more of them to perish."

And which earlier, lacking full context for the scene, I translated rather safely and for raw meaning as: "I caused the Namekians quite a few problems in the past.

I won't let their numbers decrease any further!"

Noting at the time that for an in-scene translation and with full context, I'd probably go for something voice-ier instead. The final Viz translation is slightly punched-up/embellished, but not in any way that betrays the original tone or meaning--just in a way that's slightly more characterized and smooth in English, especially flowing off of the dialogue in the previous panel. Well, well within reasonable standards for a translation. Whether you go with Viz's version or something more to-the-bone literal, in either case, Vegeta's making a clear statement of intent to protect the Namekians based on shame for his actions in the past.

[Luso Saiyan]

You did.

No, I didn't. That quote was in relation to your argument that he has "evolved". As a character, he has evolved. But not every characteristic of his character suffered an "evolution" or change. I never criticized him saving the Namekians.

It's not my responsibility to try and decipher the reasoning behind your premise, although I did make the attempt based on what you specifically said yourself.

You assumed and argued something that I never stated or implied. I specifically explained which part of that scene I found out of character. What he said, how he said it and why he said it. It sounded like an out of place piece of exposition done through out of character dialogue. That he was responding to Moro is stating the obvious. That's what the scene shows. But Moro never questioned why he was saving the Namekians, Vegeta never showed any particular regret or wanting to make up for what he did to the Namekians, and the way the dialogue was written (ex: "I did them untold harm") didn't sound like Vegeta at all.

You brought up character evolution, stoicism, etc, when it has nothing to do with my argument.

If your assertion is poorly articulated, I can't articulate it for you. That's your job.

I think I articulated myself quite alright. batistabus got it.

[Marlowe89]

I think I articulated myself quite alright. batistabus got it.

Alrighty then, let's cut the bullshit and assess some key takeaways from that post:

"Even though Vegeta loves Bulma, he doesn't outright say it and would be embarrassed to have it brought up."

"I can accept a more talkative and open side from him."

"Vegeta was clarifying his actions."

These are all very much related -- no, integral -- to my responses about Vegeta's straightforwardness (i.e. "more open side") and his evolution as a character, as well as both of our responses about his general demeanor.

Despite your insistence otherwise, it's obvious that we're all talking about the same thing -- namely whether Vegeta has a tendency to wear his heart on his sleeve and express his emotions verbally. Now, my conclusion is certainly different from the one batistabus is advocating; it seems he's implying this represents a very recent development on Vegeta's behalf, but I think that's all entirely in line with his interactions with other characters in the series.

Vegeta isn't embarrassed to discuss his feelings towards Goku, Freeza, Whis, and in some circumstances, Trunks, Bulma, and Bulla. He tends to keep his more deeply-involved family relationships personal (and even then, he's made exceptions) but he's generally open about things. Like I said, he doesn't beat around the bush. His answer to Moro's inquiry is about as direct as you can get: Moro wanted to know why his "meal" was interrupted and Vegeta said it's because he can't afford to allow another Namekian to die because of their history. Pretty simple stuff.

Argumentum ad nauseam is a terrible debating tactic. If you're unsure about what I'm saying next time, ask for clarification (which I've attempted to do for you, which you didn't answer) instead of backpedaling to some misguided point about strawmen that I never argued against.

No, see, I've been addressing your "criticism" the whole time. I just think it falls apart under closer scrutiny.

[Cipher]

Honestly, at this point I think it would be best for everyone if Vegeta just never spoke again.

[batistabus]

If the desire is to actually get anywhere in this conversation, I think we need to get more specific. It's totally unproductive when this thread devolves into debating debate tactics. A lot of people have an abstract sense of what characters in Dragon Ball are supposed to be, but if we can provide specific scenes as evidence, it'll be easier to get points across.

To clarify my position, I think most (or all) of Vegeta's development in Super is different shades of expression of where he was left at the end of the Boo arc. We're seeing new things because he's being put into new situations.

Let's look at specific moments that either 1) jive with Vegeta's words here or 2) don't. Marlowe89, you say that Vegeta isn't embarrassed to discuss his feelings towards Goku/Freeza/Whis etc. What scenes are you thinking about? Alternatively, I'd like to hear subtle or inward examples of Vegeta expressing his feelings from Luso Saiyan. Also - to clarify - I think we can all agree that Vegeta expresses his convictions freely, but I think the point of contention here involves vulnerable and change-of-heart-related statements.

I'm not a mod, so feel free to ignore me. I agree with both of you, and I actually think there's an interesting discussion to be had here.

[Marlowe89]

Marlowe89, you say that Vegeta isn't embarrassed to discuss his feelings towards Goku/Freeza/Whis etc. What scenes are you thinking about?

As a whole, there are several examples of that (Majin Vegeta's goodbye to Trunks, Vegeta's decision to stop training under Whis in the Tournament of Power, his plea to Goku in the Freeza arc, etc.) but the one that most accurately represents his disposition in the current chapter, I feel, is his interaction with Goku during the Boo arc's climax.

When Vegeta tells Goku to build his strength while he holds Boo off, that's a powerful moment for the character -- it takes Goku by surprise, and it shows that Vegeta is confidently willing to express his vulnerabilities to others. It even happens again in the same fight: Vegeta wishes that all non-evil Earthlings killed after the tournament are revived, and when Goku questions why he didn't just resurrect Boo's victims, he doesn't hesitate to remind him that he wanted to include the people he personally killed earlier in the arc.

This is a Vegeta who wants to right his wrongs, and has no qualms about openly expressing that. What's happening in this chapter isn't new, it's just a natural extension of his development in the original work.

If people have a problem with his exact phrasing in english, I totally get that, but I think that's more of a translation-specific issue. I'm not as interested in discussing those things.

[prince212]

https://imageshack.com/i/plrZd7Kgj
This have some similarities with the last chapter trending topic about vegeta “talking too much and having feelings for people that he made untold harm , without him showing before any particular regret “
Edit : oh , Marlowe addressed this in the preview post

[Rakurai]

People just want Vegeta to be more tsundere about his actions.

Goku: "Vegeta do you feel regret about what you've done to the Namekians in the past?"

Vegeta: "Hmmph, I just felt like saving the kid for reasons definitely not related to what I did to them!"

That being said, there's absolutely nothing wrong or OOC with the sentiments Vegeta expressed, both in Japanese and the way Viz translated it. This is post-Buu Vegeta we're talking about.

[Kinokima]

Just want to point out that isn’t the first time Vegeta has been upfront about why he is fighting. Although the two examples are from the anime

1) Telling Goku Black I am fighting for Trunks
2) Telling Jiren he keeps fighting because there are those I have to protect

That doesn’t mean Vegeta isn’t Tsundere. Like he may be embarrassed to outright say I love Bulma or to show affection but showing he is on the right side no this is not a first.

It is the first time (besides acknowledging the people he killed as Majin Vegeta) he brought up his past but this doesn’t mean he has never thought of it. It’s just we as an audience were never privy to it. We don’t see every waking moment of Vegeta’s life. Yes story wise I wish it was acknowledged sooner and I wish there was way more of it than this but it’s not bad for Toyotaro to include something like this.

Seriously people complain that they do the same thing with Vegata all the time and when they finally do something different bad because OOC. It’s just exhausting sometimes to be a Vegeta fan lol. It’s like the character is judged to a ridiculous standard.

[HeroR]

Just want to point out that isn’t the first time Vegeta has been upfront about why he is fighting. Although the two examples are from the anime

1) Telling Goku Black I am fighting for Trunks
2) Telling Jiren he keeps fighting because there are those I have to protect

That doesn’t mean Vegeta isn’t Tsundere. Like he may be embarrassed to outright say I love Bulma or to show affection but showing he is on the right side no this is not a first.

It is the first time (besides acknowledging the people he killed as Majin Vegeta) he brought up his past but this doesn’t mean he has never thought of it. It’s just we as an audience were never privy to it. We don’t see every waking moment of Vegeta’s life. Yes story wise I wish it was acknowledged sooner and I wish there was way more of it than this but it’s not bad for Toyotaro to include something like this.

Seriously people complain that they do the same thing with Vegata all the time and when they finally do something different bad because OOC. It’s just exhausting sometimes to be a Vegeta fan lol. It’s like the character is judged to a ridiculous standard.

For Black, Vegeta was refuting him about why he wanted to beat him. Black assumed it was because his pride was hurt by his defeat and Vegeta corrected him. And Black pointed out how odd the statement was.

Jiren is a little more straight, but Jiren asked him a serious question while Moro really didn’t. I don’t think Moro needed an answer as to why Vegeta would stop him eating a child.

Vegeta to Goku about being a Majin was also a serious question and Vegeta explained himself.

As for Moro himself, I don’t have a problem with what Vegeta said, but how he said it. It sounds odd.

[Kinokima]

Just want to point out that isn’t the first time Vegeta has been upfront about why he is fighting. Although the two examples are from the anime

1) Telling Goku Black I am fighting for Trunks
2) Telling Jiren he keeps fighting because there are those I have to protect

That doesn’t mean Vegeta isn’t Tsundere. Like he may be embarrassed to outright say I love Bulma or to show affection but showing he is on the right side no this is not a first.

It is the first time (besides acknowledging the people he killed as Majin Vegeta) he brought up his past but this doesn’t mean he has never thought of it. It’s just we as an audience were never privy to it. We don’t see every waking moment of Vegeta’s life. Yes story wise I wish it was acknowledged sooner and I wish there was way more of it than this but it’s not bad for Toyotaro to include something like this.

Seriously people complain that they do the same thing with Vegata all the time and when they finally do something different bad because OOC. It’s just exhausting sometimes to be a Vegeta fan lol. It’s like the character is judged to a ridiculous standard.

For Black, Vegeta was refuting him about why he wanted to beat him. Black assumed it was because his pride was hurt by his defeat and Vegeta corrected him. And Black pointed out how odd the statement was.

Jiren is a little more straight, but Jiren asked him a serious question while Moro really didn’t. I don’t think Moro needed an answer as to why Vegeta would stop him eating a child.

Vegeta to Goku about being a Majin was also a serious question and Vegeta explained himself.

As for Moro himself, I don’t have a problem with what Vegeta said, but how he said it. It sounds odd.

I don’t think Moro needed an answer like this either but in this case Toyotaro is allowing Vegeta to mention his past. Like I said we don’t know if Vegeta never mentioned or thought about it before in all these years. He very well could have but it’s been off screen. To make it count he has to be the one to acknowledge it (not Say Goku saying look how much he changed by saving that Namekian child because that would be even more dumb at this point). And yes him saying something Tsundere also would not have gotten the point across (and I love Tsundere Vegeta don’t get me wrong but there is a time and a place for that usually in more humorous situations)

Perhaps there could have been a better time for it story wise but well this will do. It’s really Toyotaro adding it into the story something that has been ignored far too long. And like I said I wish there was more.


Edit: I also wasn’t talking about the scene when Vegeta explains why he turned Majin (that’s different than the Jiren & Black scene because on those scenes Vegeta is admitting out loud that he fights for others. My point was he can be forthcoming about this even if he isn’t always. He now doesn’t deny he fights for others and at times he even outright admits it).

Anyways the Majin Vegeta scene I was referring to was when has makes the wish on the Super Dragon Balls and acknowledges he wants to make sure the people he killed that day were brought back.

[Son Dragon]

So including Moro, how many magic users does that make.

At quick glance we have:
Dr. Rota
Dakori
Yurin
Ribrianne
Kankusa
Rozie
Zirlion
Rabranra
Zarbuto
Boss Carrot
Main Boo
Babidi & Bibidi
Lady Baba

However even with all those characters we've really only seen abilities from Decori ,Yurin& the Kamikaze Firrballs. We're really not sure about Piccolo's Clothes Beam. And maybe something amount from Majin Boo and Babidi. However it's kind of hard to pick out just what Moro magic might be like. So far those it's mostly illusions, transformations and mind control with a fan of being able to turn objects into food. And who knows what's going on with Dr. Rota.

Also while we're on the subject of this month's chapter, was that freaking Raspberry !?

[HeroR]

Just want to point out that isn’t the first time Vegeta has been upfront about why he is fighting. Although the two examples are from the anime

1) Telling Goku Black I am fighting for Trunks
2) Telling Jiren he keeps fighting because there are those I have to protect

That doesn’t mean Vegeta isn’t Tsundere. Like he may be embarrassed to outright say I love Bulma or to show affection but showing he is on the right side no this is not a first.

It is the first time (besides acknowledging the people he killed as Majin Vegeta) he brought up his past but this doesn’t mean he has never thought of it. It’s just we as an audience were never privy to it. We don’t see every waking moment of Vegeta’s life. Yes story wise I wish it was acknowledged sooner and I wish there was way more of it than this but it’s not bad for Toyotaro to include something like this.

Seriously people complain that they do the same thing with Vegata all the time and when they finally do something different bad because OOC. It’s just exhausting sometimes to be a Vegeta fan lol. It’s like the character is judged to a ridiculous standard.

For Black, Vegeta was refuting him about why he wanted to beat him. Black assumed it was because his pride was hurt by his defeat and Vegeta corrected him. And Black pointed out how odd the statement was.

Jiren is a little more straight, but Jiren asked him a serious question while Moro really didn’t. I don’t think Moro needed an answer as to why Vegeta would stop him eating a child.

Vegeta to Goku about being a Majin was also a serious question and Vegeta explained himself.

As for Moro himself, I don’t have a problem with what Vegeta said, but how he said it. It sounds odd.

I don’t think Moro needed an answer like this either but in this case Toyotaro is allowing Vegeta to mention his past. Like I said we don’t know if Vegeta never mentioned or thought about it before in all these years. He very well could have but it’s been off screen. To make it count he has to be the one to acknowledge it (not Say Goku saying look how much he changed by saving that Namekian child because that would be even more dumb at this point). And yes him saying something Tsundere also would not have gotten the point across (and I love Tsundere Vegeta don’t get me wrong but there is a time and a place for that usually in more humorous situations)

Perhaps there could have been a better time for it story wise but well this will do. It’s really Toyotaro adding it into the story something that has been ignored far too long. And like I said I wish there was more.


Edit: I also wasn’t talking about the scene when Vegeta explains why he turned Majin (that’s different than the Jiren & Black scene because on those scenes Vegeta is admitting out loud that he fights for others. My point was he can be forthcoming about this even if he isn’t always. He now doesn’t deny he fights for others and at times he even outright admits it).

Anyways the Majin Vegeta scene I was referring to was when has makes the wish on the Super Dragon Balls and acknowledges he wants to make sure the people he killed that day were brought back.

I see what you mean. My point was that overall Vegeta tends not to be honest about his emotions unless the question he asked is a) serious or b) he feels the need to explain himself. Like how he explained why he wanted to make sure Babidi didn’t return when they wished everyone who was killed back and he wanted everyone who died instead of just Buu’s victims to assure that the people he killed come back.

So the scene comes off as odd since Vegeta isn’t usually this honest in this type of situation. Especially since Moro wasn’t being serious.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Toyo completely destroyed the Moro hype from last chapter. Dude's basically just Cell, Piccolo and Babidi put together. Toriyama made the same mistake by immediately revealing Cell's mystery. He managed to salvage it somewhat and Toyo might too with the magical abilities being teased, but I doubt it.

[The gr]

Once again the manga delivers .

-The manga does a good job keeping Moro mysterious and seeing Goku acting nervous is great way to keep the tension.

-That Frieza goon is so dead, I could see his death scene coming from a mile.

-Vegeta saving the namekian is a nice touch but the scene would have been better if it was more subtle.

-The action was generic then again part of me think this was intentional on Toyo side I mean we haven't seen Moro full power so I know next month will have an intense action sequence.

[TKA]

Toyo completely destroyed the Moro hype from last chapter. Dude's basically just Cell, Piccolo and Babidi put together. Toriyama made the same mistake by immediately revealing Cell's mystery. He managed to salvage it somewhat and Toyo might too with the magical abilities being teased, but I doubt it.

Literally none of the mystery was revealed.

Something tells me you just watched MistareFusion's Cell critique and then just randomly applied it here.

[Miracles]

Toyo completely destroyed the Moro hype from last chapter. Dude's basically just Cell, Piccolo and Babidi put together. Toriyama made the same mistake by immediately revealing Cell's mystery. He managed to salvage it somewhat and Toyo might too with the magical abilities being teased, but I doubt it.

Uhm, It was stated, regardless of Moro's condition, our heroes are still less likely to win. So the hype is still there for Moro, whom is already facing god Vegeta. Mind you now, this is a "stronger than ever" Goku and Vegeta just after facing Broly. Not to mention we still don't know about Moro's wish with the Dragonball's, so there is still some mystery for him there.