"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ankokudaishogun]

"Stronger than time" is nonsensical and brainless hype.

Jiren still moved through stopped time and was basically declared so by Whis, and that before going Full Power

[ruler9871]

1. Goku punches the universe and destroys it. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Are you saying that Goku punches so hard he causes shockwaves that can destroy the universe? Why didn't this happen with Merged Zamasu, who gave no fucks about the universe after Vegetto both anime and manga? Or Broly, whose SSG+ power was uncontrollable and wild to himself?

There are subsequent SSG+ tier battles that contradict the original notion from BoG. Only battles with legit GoDs have threatened the host universe's existence. SSG Goku vs Beerus is the outlier to this, not the norm.

Then according to your "logic", Namek Saga Freeza can't destroy planets since none of his attacks against Goku blew up Namek. You see how ridiculous and played-out your argument is?

And your Merged Zamasu argument falls apart when you remember that Black & Zamasu themselves stated that they didn't want to destroy any planet, only the mortals that live on them.

And it is purely your headcanon to assume that only legit GoDs can blow up a universe, especially since far too much in the series shows otherwise (which you only deny out of bias).

Gohan focused his blast exclusively at Cell and redirected it away from the Solar system.
is just pure headcanon.

That's literally what happened on screen, you are in denial if you disagree. Its the same thing when Vegeta's Final Flash against Perfect Cell didn't blow up the Earth.

I understand there are sources like Daizenshuu 7 that claim Cell could blow up the solar system with his Kamehameha. Saiyan arc Vegeta himself could blow up the Earth if he wanted to. But these destructive feats are not proper feats, only there for glamour if the author wills it. They're wildly inconsistent. They cannot be used to scale characters relative to each other. Universe-level shit included. And it doesn't take a "universe-level" punch to damage a SSG or even a planet-level punch to damage a SSJ.

Destructive feats are "proper" feats. They are the most common and obvious form of offensive feats, and they purely result from the characters' raw power. Your entire argument here boils down to: " those feats don't count because I don't like them, regardless of what the sources say".

"And it doesn't take a "universe-level" punch to damage a SSG or even a planet-level punch to damage a SSJ."

Only if they're off-guard

2. I am going to repeat this one last time. You cannot quantify these feats to scale characters relative to each other. Simple as that. You gain absolutely nothing from saying SSR Black cut space-time, Kefla blows away a universe (which is debatable since it's not fully supported she's on par with a GoD). You gain a proper comparison from saying SSB-KK Goku > Black, SSJ2 Kefla > SSB-KK Goku, and by logic SSJ2 Kefla > SSR Black.

"Stronger than time" is nonsensical and brainless hype. It makes zero sense and doesn't do anything to powerscale. I don't care about Marvel or DC or other series apart from DB, so please try not to bring them in again for powerscaling purposes.

No, you actually can easily quantify these feats to scale characters relative to each other, because Dragonball is just that simple. In this series more Ki/power means more everything. Base Super Buu ripping a dimension in the Room of Spirit & Time, then SSJ3 Gotenks doing the same afterwards, then Buuhan creating a greater rip in the outside universe, then SSJ1 Vegito cancelling it with just raw power are just a few examples.

If a weaker character can perform a non-hax feat, then a stronger character can do the same thing. Dragonball has always worked that way.

"""Stronger than time" is nonsensical and brainless hype."
Again you repeat the same Incredulity fallacy over and over again, ignoring that:
1. This is fiction, it doesn't have to 100% follow real-life physics.
2. Just because a concept in a story is "nonsensical" (though it really is if you understand modern physics) doesn't mean you can dismiss. Your biases don't determine what's true or false in a work of fiction.

4. It debunks a notion that attacks need to have some kind of universe-level destructive capacity to hurt these fighters. Because otherwise the attacks would be causing universal shockwaves like in BoG all the time. Which is obviously false.

Even in the Broly film, there's nothing of that sort when Rage Broly goes toe-to-toe against SSG Goku and begins destroying the environment.

This is just a repeat of #1, and it doesn't debunk anything, since by your faulty standard no one in Z can blow up a planet since they don't blow up planets everytime they shoot an energy blast.

[Mago_Gosora]

This new story is looking pretty good. Plus, we got an original villain for once! One with a pretty sweet design! My favourite part of this story arc so far is the possibility of removing DaiKaiohshin from Boo. I wonder what that will do! And whether or not he'll still be good if/when they do, since he's already split from his "evil" side.

[LightBing]

I hope Dai Kaioshin doesn't return, instead I rather Mr.Boo to have an actual role in this.

I'm tired of characters returning or new characters, when we already have so many being underused.

[dbzfan7]

I hope Dai Kaioshin doesn't return, instead I rather Mr.Boo to have an actual role in this.

I'm tired of characters returning or new characters, when we already have so many being underused.

We've been teased twice with Boo before. Let's see if 3 times is the charm.

[Rakurai]

"Stronger than time" is nonsensical and brainless hype.

Jiren still moved through stopped time and was basically declared so by Whis, and that before going Full Power

It's still nonsensical and brainless hype. If Jiren is stronger than time then that would imply he can do all sorts of things like time-travel shenanigans. Canon is that Jiren > Hit, therefore Hit's time skip techniques won't work on him. This is how it works in the manga and the most sensible explanation for it.

[Son Dragon]

You know I wonder if we're ever going to get Ms. Boo. With all this tampering with Majin Boo's existence I'm imagining at least three different possibbilities happening before the end of z. Maybe return to Kid Boo, an appearance of Ms. Boo, and appearance of Android 21 or even a new form of some sort.

[Son Dragon]

"Stronger than time" is nonsensical and brainless hype.

Jiren still moved through stopped time and was basically declared so by Whis, and that before going Full Power

It's still nonsensical and brainless hype. If Jiren is stronger than time then that would imply he can do all sorts of things like time-travel shenanigans. Canon is that Jiren > Hit, therefore Hit's time skip techniques won't work on him. This is how it works in the manga and the most sensible explanation for it.

I kinda want in on this. Not to argue too much but however have you every heard of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure? The series involves a collection of characters from the same family named JoJo, who often, find themselves in a slew of ongoing troubles against a series of villains secretly plaguing their own family and socieity over various generations. Meanwhile tgroughout the series exist multiple
characters with similar abilities to Hit which allow them to develop some form of control over time or various types time hax such as the ability to time stop, the ability to reverse time, the ability to skip time, and the abillity to fast forward time or at even greater heights the ability to mess with the multiverse. However inside most of these situations the characters are often able to develop alongside the villian and form different amd unique ways of resisting those specifc abililities. But despite being able to stand against one form of time control each hero isn't able to stand against all other forms it might take and so on.

[AnimeNation101]

"Stronger than time" is nonsensical and brainless hype.

Jiren still moved through stopped time and was basically declared so by Whis, and that before going Full Power

It's still nonsensical and brainless hype. If Jiren is stronger than time then that would imply he can do all sorts of things like time-travel shenanigans. Canon is that Jiren > Hit, therefore Hit's time skip techniques won't work on him. This is how it works in the manga and the most sensible explanation for it.

I’ll agree with this too.

I've recently gained an annoying force using “stronger than time” as a way to power scale someone or as a feat of power. Because 99% of the time, IT MAKES NO SENSE.

Picture this. Hit uses Time Cage. So theoretically Jiren should be frozen in time, with no way to move or even think. Basically time has stopped specifically for him. It makes ZERO sense that he’d be able to move. Maybe if Hit’s time cage slowed down time for Jiren specifically, you could say that to counter being in slowed time, Jiren was just moving incredibly fast IN that slowed time therefore making him able to still move.

But since the time cage doesn’t SLOW time but just STOP it, the ONLY way for Jiren to be able to move would be that to counter Time stoppage, he was moving at infinite speed to something. Which, again, makes no sense.

Heck, if Jiren is “stronger than time,” that would mean that he can avoid getting reversed by the 3 minute time reversal from angels. And I highly doubt he can do that.

So the only excuse for this is that, Jiren is stronger than the time abilities used on him by weaker opponents.

[Miracles]

So the only excuse for this is that, Jiren is stronger than the time abilities used on him by weaker opponents.

Exactly. In the Universe Six tournament in both anime [Blue KKx10] and manga [Blue]...When Goku became stronger than Hit his Time-Skip didn't work. It's in both continuities therefore it was a canon plot point by Toriyama [Toyotaro]. Later we see Jiren do the same thing again in both anime and manga's TOP, being stronger than Hit and overcoming his technique with raw power.

This has been a Dragonball plot point forever...Remember Choatzu's Telekinesis didn't work on Nappa when powering up? Special techniques normally get trumped by the more powerful.

[AnimeNation101]

So the only excuse for this is that, Jiren is stronger than the time abilities used on him by weaker opponents.

Exactly. In the Universe Six tournament in both anime [Blue KKx10] and manga [Blue]...When Goku became stronger than Hit his Time-Skip didn't work. It's in both continuities therefore it was a canon plot point by Toriyama [Toyotaro]. Later we see Jiren do the same thing again in both anime and manga's TOP, being stronger than Hit and overcoming his technique with raw power.

This has been a Dragonball plot point forever...Remember Choatzu's Telekinesis didn't work on Nappa when powering up? Special techniques normally get trumped by the more powerful.

Agreed. Even when it makes no sense, a lot of the time, pure strength overpowers abilities and techniques that logically shouldn’t be able to be overpowered.

[Rakurai]

I kinda want in on this. Not to argue too much but however have you every heard of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure? The series involves a collection of characters from the same family named JoJo, who often, find themselves in a slew of ongoing troubles against a series of villains secretly plaguing their own family and socieity over various generations. Meanwhile tgroughout the series exist multiple
characters with similar abilities to Hit which allow them to develop some form of control over time or various types time hax such as the ability to time stop, the ability to reverse time, the ability to skip time, and the abillity to fast forward time or at even greater heights the ability to mess with the multiverse. However inside most of these situations the characters are often able to develop alongside the villian and form different amd unique ways of resisting those specifc abililities. But despite being able to stand against one form of time control each hero isn't able to stand against all other forms it might take and so on.

I've heard of Jojo though not seen it. Nevertheless that logic shouldn't apply in DB. Time is time, and if an opponent is declared stronger than time, that means he is stronger than the phenomenon which dictates causality. But clearly he isn't able to.

I’ll agree with this too.

I've recently gained an annoying force using “stronger than time” as a way to power scale someone or as a feat of power. Because 99% of the time, IT MAKES NO SENSE.

Picture this. Hit uses Time Cage. So theoretically Jiren should be frozen in time, with no way to move or even think. Basically time has stopped specifically for him. It makes ZERO sense that he’d be able to move. Maybe if Hit’s time cage slowed down time for Jiren specifically, you could say that to counter being in slowed time, Jiren was just moving incredibly fast IN that slowed time therefore making him able to still move.

But since the time cage doesn’t SLOW time but just STOP it, the ONLY way for Jiren to be able to move would be that to counter Time stoppage, he was moving at infinite speed to something. Which, again, makes no sense.

Heck, if Jiren is “stronger than time,” that would mean that he can avoid getting reversed by the 3 minute time reversal from angels. And I highly doubt he can do that.

So the only excuse for this is that, Jiren is stronger than the time abilities used on him by weaker opponents.

Exactly. To generalize it to time in general was dumb and vague. Maybe time abilities in general would've been plausible. But I don't think anybody believes he can reverse the 3-min time reversal by the Angels either.

[TKA]

Exactly. In the Universe Six tournament in both anime [Blue KKx10] and manga [Blue]...When Goku became stronger than Hit his Time-Skip didn't work. It's in both continuities therefore it was a canon plot point by Toriyama [Toyotaro].

That's not exactly what happened in the anime.

As is typical with Toei, there was no explanation for why Goku could do what he did. They just played Chouzetsu Dynamic, blared up the music and amped up the colors. Toei isn't interested in creating a story that makes sense.

So when Whis says "Hit surpasses time!" you have to take it as them thinking that's just a cool line.

Sure, you can rationalize Toei's bad writing by taking information from elsewhere in the franchise and applying it, but really it's just all flash without substance.

[Miracles]

Exactly. In the Universe Six tournament in both anime [Blue KKx10] and manga [Blue]...When Goku became stronger than Hit his Time-Skip didn't work. It's in both continuities therefore it was a canon plot point by Toriyama [Toyotaro].

That's not exactly what happened in the anime.

As is typical with Toei, there was no explanation for why Goku could do what he did. They just played Chouzetsu Dynamic, blared up the music and amped up the colors. Toei isn't interested in creating a story that makes sense.

So when Whis says "Hit surpasses time!" you have to take it as them thinking that's just a cool line.

Sure, you can rationalize Toei's bad writing by taking information from elsewhere in the franchise and applying it, but really it's just all flash without substance.

Oh, I thought the anime had the same explanation as the manga. My memory is off.

[Rakurai]

What are the chances that Broly will appear during this arc? Imagine if Moro is absorbing the life energy of Broly's resident planet and Broly himself, that would make Moro pretty damn OP. I think OP absorption is the angle Toyotarou is trying to go for with Moro.

If we are to assume Broly is going to play an important role in future story arcs, then I'd rather he make an appearance sooner and establish a better foundation with the Saiyan duo than showing up later on just because they need him.

(Tbh it still feels so weird to say that Broly can actually affect the main story after so long of just being a Z villain.)

[Sora Saiyan]

What are the chances that Broly will appear during this arc? Imagine if Moro is absorbing the life energy of Broly's resident planet and Broly himself, that would make Moro pretty damn OP. I think OP absorption is the angle Toyotarou is trying to go for with Moro.

If we are to assume Broly is going to play an important role in future story arcs, then I'd rather he make an appearance sooner and establish a better foundation with the Saiyan duo than showing up later on just because they need him.

(Tbh it still feels so weird to say that Broly can actually affect the main story after so long of just being a Z villain.)

Well, there's a chance. If Broly is actually gonna appear in this Toriyama and Toyo probably decided to have other events unfold before they could get to Broly appearing again, as to not spoil Broly surviving.

[Shaddy]

It would strike me as supremely stupid to skip over the entire film introduction of Broly only to make him a key player in the very next story. At least with Freeza Toyotaro did part of an adaptation, and he was just dead again anyway. It certainly wouldn't help the recurring incomplete and sparse feelings that seem to plague the entire manga.

[Miracles]

No chance for Broly to aid the main casters. That role is filled by Dai Kaioshin and possibly Buu.

[Noitsnothim]

So apparently Moro acts stupidly and lets Goku & Vegeta get away
also is being referenced as a RPG type villain (Merged Zamasu vibes)

becoming worried now

[Miracles]

So apparently Moro acts stupidly and lets Goku & Vegeta get away
also is being referenced as a RPG type villain (Merged Zamasu vibes)

becoming worried now

The chapter is out?