"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Rakurai]

Was Toyotaro implying that if those women didn't have power greater than Roshi's, he would've just sexually assaulted them and they'd have been powerless to stop it? So much for responsible usage of martial arts...

As much as I dislike it as well, I think we should just accept the fact that Roshi is meant to be a creep towards pretty ladies no matter what the circumstance.

We know for a fact that Toriyama corrects both personalities & scenes in the manga if he doesn't resonate with it or is unsatisfied by it.

If that's the best they could provide for Roshi's characterization after his good one in the ToP, then it's meant to be his quirk.

That being said, I found the callback to his pseudo-UI & Krillin's tsukkomi hilarious. This is the kind of self-aware humor that tickles my brain.

[JulieYBM]

If this were a quaint three or five minute segment in an episode I don't think there would be an issue but the fact that all these small fights are happening over entire chapters of a comic (an inherently much slower medium than television or film to actually depict these scenes with grandiose) is pretty taxing. If there was a clear, concentrated story for the characters I think that would be different but here it's clear the only story is for Vegeta and just barely Son Gokuu. I just cannot see these scenes having been planned to be amounting to anything. Toyo-tarou is going to have to really pull something out of his ass to really salvage this stuff.

[batistabus]

Another nice, dialogue-free start to the chapter. I like the way Bulma's drones are implemented. I pretty much already expressed my thoughts on the opening when we saw the draft, but I really like the way the Kuririn vs Yunba fight is drawn and choreographed. Speaking of which, I really like the way Toyotaro draws cartoonishly-fat characters in action like Yunba, Botamo, and the 3-way fusion. Maybe it's because he doesn't have to worry about anatomy so much that he can cut loose and make their poses really dynamic.

Regarding Kame-sen'nin....I'm not sure how much I want to get into this, but here we go.

I'm really glad his moment in the ToP was referenced. The fact that cute girls would distract him to the point where he wouldn't be able to utilize the technique makes sense and is pretty funny. I really like the way Toyotaro draws him, he's got some really awesome poses. All things considered, I'm happy they didn't portray him as a foaming-at-the-mouth rapist like Toei tends to.

Still...it seems that he was actively trying to molest the girls. I'm not prepared to dissect every pervy interaction he's had in the original run of the manga, but for the most part, he's not chasing after girls and trying to touch them against their will (please correct me if I'm wrong). The closest thing I could think of was this scene, and I think Toyo goes for a similar joke here. It's almost as if he can't help but touch them (like a perverted Migatte no Gokui....), or that he's only half aware of it...he doesn't succeed, it happens off-screen, and he gets his ass kicked afterward...but I think the scene would've worked just as well if he had solely been distracted by them. Overall, it does leave a bad taste in my mouth, but I'll just leave it there.

Although, I will say that that I feel this panel perfectly channels Toriyama's comedic style. Definitely a highlight for me.

Tenshinhan and Chaozu vs Quoitur wasn't what I was expecting in the best way possible despite the retread.

I'm not sure if Moro's powers fit perfectly into the established ki lore, but I don't mind. For example, if Bobbidi had pumped that much power into one of his minions, they would explode and die. Also, they established in BoG that sharing ki isn't sufficient to greatly raising ones strength. Also also, genki isn't the same as ki, but Moro seems to be able to absorb both, along with God ki, along with planetary energy...etc. Moro's on a different level than Bobbidi, and he definitely has the energy to spare, so I buy it.

The scene where everyone is wrestling Saganbo is hilarious. Seems like a slight Avengers reference (trying to rip the glove off of Thanos).

Goku returns first. It really seems like Vegeta is being set up as the main line of defense. Still, we haven't heard more from Merus yet, and I could see this arc going for another 6 months or so.

I'm a big fan of the way Goku's ki sensing is drawn. I thought the interaction with Kuririn at the end was touching without going overboard. Very well executed. While Goku's arrival has impact, it doesn't feel the same as his arrivals in previous arcs, and that seems intentional. There are still battles with minions going on, and we know Vegeta still has things to show us, so I'm very interested to see how this plays out...

[Kinokima]

I don’t think Vegeta needed to show remorse for his past (He kind of did but only the people he killed as Majin Vegeta) but I still think it was nice that he owned up to to what he did to the Namekians. Just because we didn’t get those moments in the original run doesn’t mean Vegeta didn’t think of these things. But the problem is most of Vegeta “changing” happened off screen. We have 7 years in between Cell and Buu that we know nothing about. But the stuff with him caring about his past with the Namekians was literally only two scenes. I don’t think it dominated this arc. Personally I’d have liked more.

And yes Vegeta is certainly a popular character but he’s very much a love/hate character. As many people love him there are just as many that hate him and need to constantly say it. He’s not even in this chapter and he’s dominating the discussion.

Can we complain about Roshi instead?

[batistabus]

Again, Vegeta never showed remorse for his past actions, even during his suicide. DB characters just don't carry emotional baggage like that - Vegeta in particular. The whole thing stinks of attempting to fix what isn't broken because the village of people Vegeta killed wasn't addressed in the original run (even though the Namekians obviously would have noticed their people missing when fixing their planet) and an attempt to keep "developing" him while forgetting who Vegeta is as a person to begin.

There's no reason to suggest that Vegeta is incapable of remorse. He reminds Goku to revive the earthlings that he killed at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai at the end of the Boo arc. You overstate the situation by saying "DB characters just don't carry emotional baggage like that"; he isn't crying and begging for forgiveness, but he has the opportunity to try a different approach.

The village was addressed in the original run.

As for Goku, Toyo absolutely fails to convey Goku's relationship with characters like Gohan - who he specifically has Goku either ignore, not understand or fail to recognize while it's Vegeta constantly pushing for the kid. Contrast this to the anime version, where Goku is supportive of his family in a believable way.

I'm still not sure what you mean. If you wish to continue this conversation, please give me an example of a "bad" interaction from the DBS manga, or a "good" interaction from the anime. Remember that in Super Gohan is now an adult that Goku knows has little interest in fighting.

[Kagari]

I don’t think Vegeta needed to show remorse for his past (He kind of did but only the people he killed as Majin Vegeta) but I still think it was nice that he owned up to to what he did to the Namekians. Just because we didn’t get those moments in the original run doesn’t mean Vegeta didn’t think of these things. But the problem is most of Vegeta “changing” happened off screen. We have 7 years in between Cell and Buu that we know nothing about. But the stuff with him caring about his past with the Namekians was literally only two scenes. I don’t think it dominated this arc. Personally I’d have liked more.

And yes Vegeta is certainly a popular character but he’s very much a love/hate character. As many people love him there are just as many that hate him and need to constantly say it. He’s not even in this chapter and he’s dominating the discussion.

Can we complain about Roshi instead?

He's dominating the discussion because people think that him coming in late automatically means he's going to finish off Moro... when that situation has rarely been the case in DB once Toriyama started using that trope. I'd actually hope it's not that predictable.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

And yes Vegeta is certainly a popular character but he’s very much a love/hate character. As many people love him there are just as many that hate him and need to constantly say it. He’s not even in this chapter and he’s dominating the discussion.

The "hatedom" for Vegeta is hugely exaggerated online. Compare the amount of fanwork and irl character popularity polls depicting Vegeta in a positive light to all the criticism the character is supposedly getting.

Can we complain about Roshi instead?

Nah, no thanks. I had my fill of that during the ToP lol

[Kinokima]

The "hatedom" for Vegeta is hugely exaggerated online. Compare the amount of fanwork and irl character popularity polls depicting Vegeta in a positive light to all the criticism the character is supposedly getting.

I don’t think it’s exaggerated at all. Because something is popular you think it can’t also be hated by many people? I mean I dislike the series sword art online and I know many other people that do but that doesn’t mean it isn’t one of the most popular franchises ever.


And whether Vegeta beats Moro is just fan speculation at this point. I’m a Vegeta fan and while I think there is of course a chance I am not as convinced as most. Speculating is of course all fine and good but people don’t need to over hype themselves or write off an ending that hasn’t even happened yet.

[DiscountDabi]

I understand why people are upset about Gohan playing the Wait for Goku and Vegeta game. But honestly, what do you want him to do? Charge in headfirst determined to take down Moro only for him to get one shot? I think him standing his ground and trying to protect the earth is way better than him running in headfirst and dying pointlessly (*Cough Couch* Old Bardock * Cough Cough*)

[The Undying]

Just because we didn’t get those moments in the original run doesn’t mean Vegeta didn’t think of these things.

You said it yourself - we did get one of those moments. In the Boo arc, Vegeta blatantly and unambiguously expressed remorse about killing Earthlings as Majin Vegeta, and even endeavored to make things right via his instructions to Dende. That's as clear-cut as it gets. I don't know how it could possibly get any clearer.

His character wasn't "regressed" or changed, nor is this even remotely out of line with how he was originally portrayed. Vegeta is a person who has developed in literally every arc in the original manga since his introduction. What the Super manga did in this arc was a natural extension of his previous growth, and far better than any characterization Toei has given him.

I can't believe people are even bringing this up again because it's an absolute non-issue. Are characters not allowed to develop because it wasn't in the original run, even when it aligns perfectly with their prior trajectory? It's a nonsensical claim from the start.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The whole thing stinks of attempting to fix what isn't broken because the village of people Vegeta killed wasn't addressed in the original run (even though the Namekians obviously would have noticed their people missing when fixing their planet) and an attempt to keep "developing" him while forgetting who Vegeta is as a person to begin.

Yes that was addressed in the original manga. After Namek's DBs teleported all people to Earth, the Namekians realized that the population of one of the villages was not resurrected, and Vegeta explains that this did not happen because the wish was to revive everyone that Freeza and his henchmen killed, and Vegeta was not one of his henchmen when he wiped out this village. And Vegeta says that without any remorse, obviously because he had not gone through all the transformation seen afterwards.

And after that he never had a chance to face the Namekians again, so it makes sense to me that he still feels guilty for what he did, considering that the Namekians don't have a good impression of him and he never apologized

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

And after that he never had a chance to face the Namekians again, so it makes sense to me that he still feels guilty for what he did, considering that the Namekians don't have a good impression of him and he never apologized

Why would Vegeta care how people see him?

[TheSaiyanGod]

And after that he never had a chance to face the Namekians again, so it makes sense to me that he still feels guilty for what he did, considering that the Namekians don't have a good impression of him and he never apologized

Why would Vegeta care how people see him?

Because his mission was to go to Namek and protect the planet / inhabitants against Moro, and as we saw the Namekians still had suspicions with Vegeta for his past acts and Vegeta knew that the damage done by him had never been repaired, so he was still feeling guilty

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Now that I think about it, is this Chautzu's(I suck spelling his name) first seen win in manga form? Anime wise it was against Guldo.

[Lionel]

Now that I think about it, is this Chautzu's(I suck spelling his name) first seen win in manga form? Anime wise it was against Guldo.

Pretty much. The only properly fleshed out fight he ever got was against Krillin in the 22nd tournament. Afterwards he suffered a habit of being given the cold-shoulder via incapacitation through some form or another. What's interesting is that the closest thing to a significant moment for him wasn't even meshed in the way of a fight but through him almost articulating a wish that would have eliminated Piccolo Daimou.

I personally think that his penchant for psychic abilities makes him stand out amongst the fisticuffs traditionalists. There's a lot of untapped potential in his style that Toriyama and his protege don't seem to have much interest in.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Because his mission was to go to Namek and protect the planet / inhabitants against Moro, and as we saw the Namekians still had suspicions with Vegeta for his past acts and Vegeta knew that the damage done by him had never been repaired, so he was still feeling guilty

By why this specific wrong doing? Vegeta has lived on Earth for almost two decades at this point. A planet he was very close to purging. His wishes are what caused the deaths of several of Earth's warriors. Then there's Vegeta's relationship to his former minions, Raditz and Nappa. Raditz had been convinced he was valuable enough to Vegeta to ressurect and Nappa had basically raised him. And yet Vegeta rejected Nappa's suggestion they ressurect Raditz and went on to kill Nappa as Nappa lay broken begging for help.

I don't have a problem with Vegeta feeling empathy. I like the idea of him letting go of who he was and what he believed to be the Saiyan ideal. But Vegeta's sins extend so far beyond a bunch of Namekians it's silly to me for him to feel any pangs of guilt over that.

[Matches Malone]

One thing that could happen is Vegeta's blocking technique wearing off just as he's about to deliver the final blow, like what happened to Goku against Jiren. He'd get the final battle like Goku, but at the very end would need some help to completely put Moro down, by Goku and maybe even Buu. I do think Vegeta's fan will lose their minds over this, but we shouldn't, as the idea of one character completely taking care of everything or getting a clear win seems to be a thing of the past for the franchise.

Since this chapter released I've been reading how excited everyone is for Vegeta to get his first win against a main villain...did everyone forget about Golden Freeza ? Goku may have killed him with Whis' help, but not only was it something Vegeta could've done as he was about to Big Bang attack him back to hell, he was the one to get the final fight with him, something that was emphasized even more in the anime's retelling.

[DiscountDabi]

Anyone notice how when Saganbo bursts out of his Prison Garb that he is wearing the same pants as Moro? I just thought that was an interesting detail to point out, not sure what it means.

https://prnt.sc/r5hm7b

https://prnt.sc/r5holy

Edit: Just wanted to add after the fact that maybe Moro has a clothes beam like Piccolo. He is magic after all

[mrsilentq]

Still finding this arc very entertaining. This specific chapter felt like obligatory time-filler waiting for Goku or Vegeta to arrive, but I guess it's necessary and I enjoyed a lot of the same moments people are talking about. What it's lacking to me is some actual sense of danger or terror, and getting it now at this point seems very uncharacteristic. I can't imagine Moro suddenly throwing his arm through Gohan's chest the way he did to the no-name Namekians'.
What I'm hoping for is one last 'something' with Merus. He's the most interesting thing about this arc to me, and supposedly pulled a Poochie (Simpsons lol).

[emperior]

It would be weird if Merus doesn’t appear anymore in this arc. Maybe he will join the fight, help Goku and Vegeta to take down Moro and later will be destroyed by the Grand Priest? Such a twist may lead up to a future arc.

Also Moro not killing anyone from now on would be a missed opportunity. Be it Vegeta or Merus indirectly, or any other Earth warrior, I want to see Moro doing some cruelty to make us despise him more.
Ever since Merus brought up UI is achieved by being calm in a shocking situation I thought someone close to Goku will be killed, and he will not lose his cool thus entering the mastered UI state.