"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:02 pm
It's not an inconsistency. Zamasu would've been reduced to dust but he would've just regenerated after. But Zamasu himself and Goku had no way of knowing that. Beerus just confirmed it later.
Zamasu needed to use a mortal as a shield. It was definitely working.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:55 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:40 pm
He spent pretty much the entire tournament harassing this one guy and not contributing in any other fight. It was seriously so bad.
I agree with your analysis, but disagree with your conclusion. It's hardly a bad thing that the manga remained consistent with Goku's character by keeping him focused on the one obstacle he was excited about from the beginning of the arc. He had enough faith in his teammates to take care of the rest, and it wasn't at all misplaced - through Freeza's underhanded scheming and 17's strategy, they were able to pull through in the worst case scenario. His growth in the Tournament of Power was more personal than interpersonal.

I will argue to the death that the manga nailed every story arc except this current one. I suspect the latter has to do with less involvement on Toriyama's part, but Toyotaro is generally good at keeping the narrative firmly grounded in points that Toriyama had in mind.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ShaggyBlanco » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:24 pm

Speaking of Hakai I wish Goku tried that on Moro, this chapter would have been cool instead of a Kamehameha

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:48 pm

TKA wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:01 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:09 pm
If I remember correctly, Cell was looking for a challenger worthy of his power.
The interesting thing about Perfect Cell to me is that this isn’t really his character, or at least not all there is to it. Perfect Cell is essentially totally different from the previous 2 forms (I’ll get into the differences between all three another time), so I don’t just call him “Cell”.

But anyway, Perfect Cell doesn’t actually want a challenge. He wants someone he can flaunt his power on. The minute he’s presented with a challenge, he completely breaks down because he’s perfect. He’s a complete narcissist and pretends all he wants is a good challenge.

People tend to say he just becomes Frieza, but Frieza doesn’t even put up that kind of facade; Frieza wants everyone to know they aren’t even in his league and they never will be, whereas Perfect Cell held a tournament to give hope that he could lose. Frieza’s big character flaw is his pride, which is predictated on the idea that nobody is as strong as him. That’s why Goku pissed him off so much; Goku was stronger. But because Frieza is driven by a pride in his power, so this makes him snap and he fights dirtier than ever (blowing the planet up). The same thing later happens when he fights Trunks and realizes Trunks too is stronger than him.

Perfect Cell, on the other hand, refuses to accept that anyone could be stronger than him. The notion is so incomprehensible to him that he reverts to being semi-Perfect Cell because there’s no way anyone could be more powerful than Perfect Cell (yes, yes, I know that in the plot Gohan supposedly punched him so hard he randomly puked up 18; thats not the level of analysis I’m doing). If Perfect Cell was like Frieza, then he would’ve tried to blow up the planet the second he realized Gohan was stronger, but the thought never occurred to Perfect Cell because nobody can be as good as him. It’s very circular logic on his part, but that’s what makes him interesting.

But that’s just a thought.
It's an interesting thought. I never looked at it that way. I can definitely see your post justified the most where Perfect Cell loses his marbles when he finds out there is a a stronger being. He wanted to flaunt his vanity because he was perfect.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:11 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:55 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:40 pm
He spent pretty much the entire tournament harassing this one guy and not contributing in any other fight. It was seriously so bad.
I agree with your analysis, but disagree with your conclusion. It's hardly a bad thing that the manga remained consistent with Goku's character by keeping him focused on the one obstacle he was excited about from the beginning of the arc. He had enough faith in his teammates to take care of the rest, and it wasn't at all misplaced - through Freeza's underhanded scheming and 17's strategy, they were able to pull through in the worst case scenario. His growth in the Tournament of Power was more personal than interpersonal.

I will argue to the death that the manga nailed every story arc except this current one. I suspect the latter has to do with less involvement on Toriyama's part, but Toyotaro is generally good at keeping the narrative firmly grounded in points that Toriyama had in mind.
This is more of an issue of personal preference because aside from a few key points in it, I really disliked the manga's ToP arc for a number of reasons, so it's gonna be hard to argue on this one. So preemptively, we'll probably have to agree to disagree.

To narrow in on Goku's role, it feels like he has very little to do in the overall arc until the end. I'm not necessarily saying he needed to have the highest body count like in the anime, but when even Muten Roshi has more K.O.s than one of the strongest contenders in the whole tournament, I start to wonder why anyone reveres Goku in the first place. Considering how unceremoniously most universes get eliminated en masse in the manga, it's weird that Goku plays a hand in none of it.

Toyotaro could've emphasised an underdog angle for the entire Universe 7 team, but in the manga, U7 still get the second most eliminations after Kale fodderised like four universes in one go; he establishes them as heavyhitters when Android 17 bulldozes Universe 10 within seconds of the word "go". The real worst case scenario would've been if Vegeta, Frieza, 17, Gohan, Roshi and probably 18 too got knocked out early somehow because at least they all did things. Looking at the broader events of the arc, Goku could've been one of the first eliminated and it wouldn't have made much difference at all (hyperbole, I know him getting UI is important, but heyho).

I don't want to get too deep into a debate but I am genuinely curious how the manga's Universe Survival arc was nailed in your opinion?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:53 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm
Zamasu needed to use a mortal as a shield. It was definitely working.
He used a mortal as a shield because he himself didn't know if he could regenerate from it.

The fact he felt fear and tried to stop Goku isn't assurance that the technique itself would have worked. He himself doesn't know the limits of the regeneration he was granted, if hakai could bypass it. Heck, one could argue that the fact he was able to grab Mai to stop it with half his body missing is proof that it wouldn't have worked in the end, since having half of his head Hakai'd didn't affect his ability to function.

You can call it poor writing, or simply not like that justification, but it's not an inconsistency. An example of an inconsistency would be Beerus or someone saying hakai would kill Zamasu, because it does work on immortals, and then after being reduced to dust Zamasu still came back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:54 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:11 pm
I don't want to get too deep into a debate but I am genuinely curious how the manga's Universe Survival arc was nailed in your opinion?
There's a lot of stuff to go on, but I'll try to condense it all as much as I can:


There's a lot more I could say, particularly as it pertains to the individual character threads, its execution of Jiren as an antagonist, and Jiren's overall chemistry with Goku, but this should sum it up.

There were some things I disliked, but with the sole exception of Gohan's fight against Kefla being off-panel, none of them terribly bothered me.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:11 pm
To narrow in on Goku's role, it feels like he has very little to do in the overall arc until the end.
As is fitting. Goku's character arc in the tournament was fundamentally personal, so it's only appropriate (and in line with his values on fighting) that his involvement would be contained almost strictly to his encounter with Jiren. Giving him a body count at all would have greatly de-emphasized his whole motivation for participating, in my view.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:46 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:53 pm
He used a mortal as a shield because he himself didn't know if he could regenerate from it.

The fact he felt fear and tried to stop Goku isn't assurance that the technique itself would have worked. He himself doesn't know the limits of the regeneration he was granted, if hakai could bypass it. Heck, one could argue that the fact he was able to grab Mai to stop it with half his body missing is proof that it wouldn't have worked in the end, since having half of his head Hakai'd didn't affect his ability to function.

You can call it poor writing, or simply not like that justification, but it's not an inconsistency. An example of an inconsistency would be Beerus or someone saying hakai would kill Zamasu, because it does work on immortals, and then after being reduced to dust Zamasu still came back.
An immortal being should feel when he's dying so him grabbing Mai tells me it was working. Zamasu hates mortals with all his soul and even commented that using one as a shield was a disgrace. He wouldn't do that unless he felt it was completely necessary.

Also before that he got his chest blown off by Goku so he should very well know the limit of his regeneration and if he's dying or not.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:09 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:46 am
An immortal being should feel when he's dying so him grabbing Mai tells me it was working. Zamasu hates mortals with all his soul and even commented that using one as a shield was a disgrace. He wouldn't do that unless he felt it was completely necessary.

Also before that he got his chest blown off by Goku so he should very well know the limit of his regeneration and if he's dying or not.
Zamasu himself doesn't fully understand the mechanics and extent of his regeneration. There's a big difference between having one's chest blown off and being reduced to dust by the same technique Gods of Destruction are known to use. It's not outside reason that he'd freak out not knowing if he'd survive that or not. Why does he have to feel anything to freak out over being reduced to dust? It's presumptuous to say that an immortal being should "feel when he's dying" if he feels no pain. And obviously there's some kind of limit, given that absolute erasure can do him in. Why shouldn't he freak out not knowing if Hakai is that limit or not?

To say that it's an inconsistency that Zamasu still freaked out and grabbed Mai, even if he would've been fine, is being presumptuous that Zamasu would know with absolute certainty that a hakai can't do him in, and wouldn't actually be some huge gamble that he's never had to question before.

So while you may disagree with the writing behind it, and feel that Zamasu should have known those limits and not freaked out, objectively speaking there's no inconsistency over Zamasu freaking out over it, and Beerus confirming he would've been fine.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:18 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:09 am
presumptuous to say that an immortal being should "feel when he's dying" if he feels no pain.
But he can feel pain. This has been shown in both anime and manga.

If you are immortal and get reduced to dust, between that and the time it takes to regenerate you should still feel yourself there since you aren't dead. Your being still "exists".

For Zamasu to feel the need to use Mai then he would have felt his being getting erased so the technique was working.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:33 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:18 am
But he can feel pain. This has been shown in both anime and manga.

If you are immortal and get reduced to dust, between that and the time it takes to regenerate you should still feel yourself there since you aren't dead. Your being still "exists".

For Zamasu to feel the need to use Mai then he would have felt his being getting erased so the technique was working.
It's suggested that despite visibly struggling, a properly immortal Zamasu wouldn't feel pain in the anime (Fused Zamasu did because he wasn't properly immortal.) And his behavior in the manga suggests it may also be the case in that continuity. Though fair, I won't make that assumption. But this is a minor point. If he does feel pain, then why wouldn't he panic regardless? He's literally being reduced to dust. I'd assume that's pretty painful.

Also the idea that he can still "feel himself there" even if he's reduced to dust is another presumption.

So maybe he didn't know if he would survive the hakai or not, so to stop Goku from finishing the technique altogether he grabbed Mai? The only way I think you can argue it's an inconsistency is by making assumptions over things that weren't actually stated. Again, you can disagree with the writing, but if you have to assume that Zamasu would "still feel [himself] there" when that's never actually stated to be the case for Zamasu, then it's not an inconsistency, it's a disagreement with the writing and how you feel the story should be.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:43 am

Well have to agree to disagree I guess.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:56 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:41 pm
That vegito do that is not proof of anything ... because he is never seen fighting in that state in question ... from what they explain he did it so that his time limit didn't run out before but that does not reduce power
Yeah of course man, now the senzu beans are eaten to extend the fusion time. Which is contradictory because the fusion time was shortened due to Vegitto being too powerful for the potharas, so in other words, eating that senzu shortened the fusion time and not extended it.
Tai Lung wrote:but again that is a mistake of the manga because other examples shows that fatigue does not reduce power Merged zamasu, kefla and gogeta
And that's why I don't like discussing with you. So in the sentence before the senzu was eaten to extend the fusion time and not to recover Vegetto's power but now it's a mistake from the manga because you admit that he took it to replenish his strength?
We've reached a point where you contradict yoursefl from sentence to sentence but you're still right no matter what.

And even if you're right in some aspects (yes, Piccolo didn't have any senzus in the Broly movie) it's also true that Goku and Vegeta were far from beaten there, they still were at SSJB levels of power when they quit the fight and left Broly fighting Freeza and had 1 hour to rest.
A fusion of 2 SSJB (Broly gogeta) is obviously only going to be stronger than a fusion between to sub-SSJ1 fighters (Kefla).

Dragon Wukong wrote:So maybe he didn't know if he would survive the hakai or not, so to stop Goku from finishing the technique altogether he grabbed Mai? The only way I think you can argue it's an inconsistency is by making assumptions over things that weren't actually stated. Again, you can disagree with the writing, but if you have to assume that Zamasu would "still feel [himself] there" when that's never actually stated to be the case for Zamasu, then it's not an inconsistency, it's a disagreement with the writing and how you feel the story should be.
I 100% agree with what you say. Not liking the decision the author has taken is one thing, there being a contradiction in the manga a very different one.
Furthermore, it's implied in the manga that fused Zamatsu's immortality wasn't 100% full until both Zamatsu's fused at a celular level (which is when every small particle of fused Zamatsu started to regenerate on its own).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:54 am

Ok... read the last chapter and was surprised how much gore there was.
Krillin finally came with Senzus, like lot of people here wished for :lol:
I really don't like that new design of Moro still, I think it will be better, if he didn't had these domes like Freeza on his body. It was unique and interesting on Freeza and his race, but I think it really looks silly, like it doesn't belong on him. But it is basically that bad design of the 73 Android, because I really think he didn't look good at all, like some AF fanart of the ultimate enemy, that is amalgamation of the DB designs together and Moro got these traits with the Cell/Freeza face and the rudiculous domes...

Happy for Merus, finally something interesting.

What I liked:
GOHAN! using the Galactic Donuts move that Gotenks invented was really awesome!
I like when the characters are using the signature and older moves in the series, like Mafuba or Kienzan.

What I didn't liked:
Still, knowing that the Tenkaichi Budokai will take place is my issue with this timesetting the whole time.
Moro basically becoming Mary Sue villain of Dragon Ball, his design being AF like fan idea and him being ancient threat like Buu or King Piccolo, having the abilities like Cell because he can copy them, so he is using the Vegeta and Piccolo's attacks like Cell did...
The energy sucking thing is something new and malevolent and great idea on paper, but somehow I have still hard time to get invested into this story. I have no problem with Vegeta not being the star, but Moro is basically like Broly in Movie 8, which I really don't enjoy because you are just watching the characters getting trashed without even small chance for victory, until Goku pulls the magic fist from his ass at the end.
And I really don't enjoy reading or watching this kind of stuff, because outside of Vegeta's little moment of shine, there wasn't any growth.
You don't see anyone learn trough the fighting and overcoming Moro, so he can pull out some unexpected trump card, he is just many steps before everyone else so the story probably has to be saved by god/angel intervening.

For comparison, Cell attained his perfect form and damn, nobody did scratch on him. He announced the tournament for fun and we saw the characters training and Goku went toe to toe with him at first BUT plot twist and it was really exciting because you saw this unbelievable enemy, that the cast has now a chance to defeat. Goku losing was novel in Battle Of The Gods, but now Goku gets his ass handed all the time.
In Z, character transformed into new Super Saiyan form and basically went all ape and it was cool...
In Super, character transforms and it is like hey, new form which is cool, fast, unique, whatever and the villain is like ''pffft'' and punches the protagonist trough the face, like meh this form is great, but it is not perfected and drains so much stamina...
That is what I liked about Dragon Ball on TV as a kid, there was progress and it left me in anticipation for the next episode.
This manga I read just because it is Dragon Ball and I wonder, how will this story end and what will be after it, but if it got cancelled midway, I would not care much.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:50 am

ShaggyBlanco wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:24 pm
Speaking of Hakai I wish Goku tried that on Moro, this chapter would have been cool instead of a Kamehameha
I think Toyotaro forgot about that ability......maybe he did learn something from Toriyama?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:29 am

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:54 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:11 pm
I don't want to get too deep into a debate but I am genuinely curious how the manga's Universe Survival arc was nailed in your opinion?
There's a lot of stuff to go on, but I'll try to condense it all as much as I can:


There's a lot more I could say, particularly as it pertains to the individual character threads, its execution of Jiren as an antagonist, and Jiren's overall chemistry with Goku, but this should sum it up.

There were some things I disliked, but with the sole exception of Gohan's fight against Kefla being off-panel, none of them terribly bothered me.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:11 pm
To narrow in on Goku's role, it feels like he has very little to do in the overall arc until the end.
As is fitting. Goku's character arc in the tournament was fundamentally personal, so it's only appropriate (and in line with his values on fighting) that his involvement would be contained almost strictly to his encounter with Jiren. Giving him a body count at all would have greatly de-emphasized his whole motivation for participating, in my view.
Okay, interesting. I had a feeling pacing would be a huge point for it, which I kind of agree with. I think the anime was rather bloated in comparison but personally, I still found the anime much more exciting. While manga's rapid pace may contribute to the claustrophobic feeling of the tournament, the art didn't usually reflect that so well -- the arena often feels just as barren and lifeless in the manga, but at least the anime covered it up with smog and later the rocky highrises to create a sense that more was going on in other areas simultaneously. I like how in the anime, several episodes follow concurrent events -- in an episode focusing on Gohan joining Frieza to fight Dyspo there's a glimpse of Toppo attacking Android 17, which is then elaborated on in the next episode. Aside from that one amazing spread of everyone fighting when the tournament starts, I can't think of many moments where the art stood out. Although I can understand the sheer number of episodes in the anime causing burnout, someone miraculously managed to condense it down to the 48 minute timeslot by showing action on multiple windows and cutting out some of the fillerific blabber (which I'd say is just as much of an issue in the manga, what with Toyotaro's fascination with reaction shots).

The thing is, with condensing the story in such a way, everything started to feel... perfunctory... like Toyotaro was just skipping from one big plot point to the next, checking off a list that Toriyama had given him with zero passion or breathing room. It also reflects in his art throughout the arc which is among his most inconsistent and anatomically iffy work I've seen. Although it would be dumb to expect every character to have time to shine, the vast majority of these 80 fighters have nothing going for them and might as well not be there, whereas the anime gave us glimpses of some of their powers and personalities. The Universe Survival arc in general may not have an outstanding plot, but the manga reveals how vapid it really is when there's no window dressing whatsoever.

I don't see how Goku's role in this arc was especially personal. Goku's motivation is that he's waku-waku excited for the tournament because he'll get to fight a whole bunch of strongest guys from all the universes at the same time, not just Jiren.

A lot of these points may sound superficial, but the Tournament of Power is ultimately a superficial arc -- it's supposed to be all about non-stop action and fighting.

Things I did like: the added focus on Android 17 and Frieza from the start, plus them fighting other characters; Android 17 taming the Cell Juniors on his island; some added tea about Jiren's master; Roshi using a pseudo Ultra Instinct to teach Goku that strength isn't everything; the Pride Troopers taking out Kale with teamwork.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:00 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:29 am
Although it would be dumb to expect every character to have time to shine
I think it would have been silly to give almost any of them time to shine. They exist to enhance the setting.

Spending pointless chapters on Tweedledee from Universe 10 and then Tweedledum from Universe 2 would have been antithetical to its premise. When Toriyama chose the setting, he chose a battle royale; the chaos and team dynamics of that tournament structure jointly represent what our protagonists were forced to contend with, not, for the most part, the fighters themselves. That would have been a refreshing departure from the traditional (and frankly tired) tournament structure if the anime didn't make it almost exactly like a traditional tournament. As in any battle royale, the fights shouldn't start to become more secluded until the match has dwindled down to a few remaining competitors.

It's also antithetical to the story's driving characters. The manga's recruitment period only dedicated any amount of time to Universes 6, 7, and 11 for a very good reason. That's already an enormous cast, so anything further would have resulted in massive bloat and a predominantly unfocused narrative.

I'm mostly ambivalent on Toyotaro's art. Every arc has a few standout panels and a few really bad ones, but it's largely pretty standard stuff. It's not even remotely as good as Toriyama's, but it's often serviceable enough that you can follow the story. It's his writing that I tend to analyze above all else.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:29 am
Goku's motivation is that he's waku-waku excited for the tournament because he'll get to fight a whole bunch of strongest guys from all the universes at the same time, not just Jiren.
Not in a battle royale. Chapter 35 addresses this exact point - Goku can't fight the strongest guy to his fullest if he has to waste stamina on other opponents, which is why he knocked the others back and went directly for Jiren. Both mediums actually establish Goku being more excited about fighting Jiren than any other contestant, but only the manga consistently made the stamina issue a plot point with valid consequences.

More importantly, Jiren serves as a brilliant foil to Goku. From his debut all the way until the end of the arc, the manga portrays him as a conflicted Superman instead of an apathetic Batman. He would ordinarily never participate in a tournament that would lead to the erasure of other universes, even if it meant preventing his own universe from facing certain doom, but then he's tempted to join when it's revealed he has a wish he would abandon his own convictions for. That dichotomy is demonstrated all throughout the tournament; he's a selfless hero with selfish undertones, unlike Goku, who is a selfish fighter with selfless undertones.

Their dynamic eventually culminates in Jiren having to confront the one thing he lacked, teamwork/trust, which results in his elimination. This circles back around to my earlier point about the necessity of making their fight so personal: Goku, despite his uwavering focus on Jiren, constantly puts faith in his companions throughout the tournament. Jiren doesn't.

The anime vastly diminishes any chemistry you could have between these characters by making Jiren a bored meditator who sits on his ass until he goes full villain mode and tries to kill the spectators, or by dilluting Goku's thread in having him fight contestants that do nothing for his character or the progression of the plot. This is all very uninteresting to me, but again, the manga was focused on what it wanted to do with those themes from the start.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:09 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:56 am
I 100% agree with what you say. Not liking the decision the author has taken is one thing, there being a contradiction in the manga a very different one.
Furthermore, it's implied in the manga that fused Zamatsu's immortality wasn't 100% full until both Zamatsu's fused at a celular level (which is when every small particle of fused Zamatsu started to regenerate on its own).
I don't think it's implied Fused Zamasu's immortality wasn't 100% until they were fused at a cellular level. The implication I got of that particular piece was the immortality extending itself to Goku Black when the fusion ended because he's also "Zamasu," leading to things going haywire and the regeneration extending itself to "separate pieces" of Zamasu, and restoring both Black and Zamasu to their fusion forms, as well as just regenerating any pieces lobbed off.

I do truly believe that had Zamasu been fully hakai'd before that point he would've regenerated just fine, because the idea that he might not be able to regenerate from some kind of damage isn't hinted at before that point.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:00 pm

The Undying wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:00 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:29 am
Although it would be dumb to expect every character to have time to shine
I think it would have been silly to give most of them time to shine.

Spending pointless chapters on Tweedledee from Universe 10 and then Tweedledum from Universe 2 would have been antithetical to its premise. When Toriyama chose the setting, he chose a battle royale; the chaos and team dynamics of that tournament structure jointly represent what our protagonists were forced to contend with, not, for the most part, the fighters themselves. That would have been a refreshing departure from the traditional (and frankly tired) tournament structure if the anime didn't make it almost exactly like a traditional tournament. As in any battle royale, the fights shouldn't start to become more secluded until the match has dwindled down to a few remaining competitors.

It's also antithetical to the story's driving characters. The manga's recruitment period only dedicated any amount of time to Universes 6, 7, and 12 for a very good reason. That's already an enormous cast, so anything further would have resulted in massive bloat and a predominantly unfocused narrative.

I'm mostly ambivalent on Toyotaro's art. Every arc has a few standout panels and a few really bad ones, but it's largely pretty standard stuff. It's not even remotely as good as Toriyama's, but it's often serviceable enough that you can follow the story. It's his writing that I tend to analyze above all else.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:29 am
Goku's motivation is that he's waku-waku excited for the tournament because he'll get to fight a whole bunch of strongest guys from all the universes at the same time, not just Jiren.
Not in a battle royale. Chapter 35 addresses this exact point - Goku can't fight the strongest guy to his fullest if he has to waste stamina on other opponents, which is why he knocked the others back and went directly for Jiren. Both mediums actually establish Goku being more excited about fighting Jiren than any other contestant, but only the manga consistently made the stamina issue a plot point with valid consequences.

More importantly, Jiren serves as a brilliant foil to Goku. From his debut all the way until the end of the arc, the manga portrays him as a conflicted Superman instead of an apathetic Batman. He would ordinarily never participate in a tournament that would lead to the erasure of other universes, even if it meant preventing his own universe from facing certain doom, but then he's tempted to join when it's revealed he has a wish he would abandon his own convictions for. That dichotomy is demonstrated all throughout the tournament; he's a selfless hero with selfish undertones, unlike Goku, who is a selfish fighter with selfless undertones.

Their dynamic eventually culminates in Jiren having to confront the one thing he lacked, teamwork/trust, which results in his elimination. This circles back around to my earlier point about the necessity of making their fight so personal: Goku, despite his uwavering focus on Jiren, constantly puts faith in his companions throughout the tournament. Jiren doesn't.

The anime vastly diminishes any chemistry you could have between these characters by making Jiren a bored meditator who sits on his ass until he goes full villain mode and tries to kill the spectators, or by dilluting Goku's thread in having him fight contestants that do nothing for his character or the progression of the plot. This is all very uninteresting to me, but again, the manga was focused on what it wanted to do with those themes from the start.
I should clarify that I never expected Tweedledum and Tweedledee to have entire chapters dedicated to them, that would be an unrealistic expectation and moreover, the other universes aren't protagonists so it's only natural. However, it feels gratuitous to even bother with most of the universes at all if they're all going to be dealt with so unceremoniously. I feel the whole battle royale premise gets ruined much worse in the manga when Kale goes berserk and massacres four universes in one go, including many of her own teammates. It's anticlimactic as hell. Even before that, I can't recall many scenes of the Universe 7 heroes dealing with the situation in any interesting, strategic ways.

Although Toriyama-sensei usually knows best, I think Toyotaro should've stood up and made his own marks with this arc. The frantic battle royale atmosphere could've easily been maintained if he reduced it to like 50 instead of 80 fighters. Make a couple fodder universes, whatever, then focus on the real meat of the story. I could live with that.

This set-up provided limitless opportunities for new, creative fight ideas -- Toyotaro could have had the ingenuity to come up with crazy, wacky fight scenarios with all these action figures in his toybox, but he never branched out from the outlines Toriyama gave him. So, bizarrely, we still got a whole chapter dedicated to Gamisaras and Damon, two absolute nobodies (though admittedly, I quite like their gimmick), purely because Toriyama dictated that Piccolo had to be eliminated in a particular way. Who knows what really went on behind the scenes, maybe Toyotaro isn't to blame at all, but I still get a distinct lack of enthusiasm when reading that arc eerily like the later Buu arc chapters.

I think what ultimately sucks most for me is that the manga severely lacks emotional depth, which ties into my "box-ticking" complaint of things just happening. Android 17's sacrifice is a sad, dramatic scene in the anime, and he actually has an immediate reason to do it. In the manga, he suicide bombs into Jiren with zero provocation with the misplaced intention to damage him, which of course doesn't work. And that's it, he's "dead" and no one seems to care, not even his own sister. Then he just magically springs out of the ground after the tournament ends with no foreshadowing, ensuring that Universe 7 win by technicality. Meanwhile, poor Son Gohan gets forgotten and left behind at the World of Void, tragically left to suffocate in the abyss. :lol:

Good points about Jiren, though, you've changed my view on some things. But even still, I disagree that Goku should've purely focused on him so excessively. In the anime, he's still eager to get in rematches against Toppo, Hit (not bothered that it never happened, the anime already gave us a filler arc about it) and test other interestin' fighters he comes across like Caulifla and Kale, so it's more of a steady realisation that Jiren is seriously next-level. He can have faith in his friends but still help out occasionally and generally be a more proactive protagonist with other conflicts -- it's not like it would wound the teamwork vs. self-reliance dichotomy he has against Jiren.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:04 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:48 pm
It's an interesting thought. I never looked at it that way. I can definitely see your post justified the most where Perfect Cell loses his marbles when he finds out there is a a stronger being. He wanted to flaunt his vanity because he was perfect.
Sorry, I tend to ramble when I see a point that really gets me thinking.

To sum up all of that, the difference between Cell and Frieza is Frieza is scared that people could be stronger than him, while Perfect Cell thinks nobody can be as strong as him. Frieza can imagine someone matching him and being stronger, but Perfect Cell literally has no conception of something like that being even remotely possible. He is, after all, "perfect".
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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