"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

This guy cannot be the survivor of one of the erased universes, because the Erase technique that Zeno has ignores geographical location. If you are biologically from a certain universe, you can be anywhere you want, but you will still be erased. Literally everything is erased. There is a scene where even a small object that Obuni carried (a photo of his family) was erased when U10 lost.

This man must be the survivor of something else. I hope he is not a Tsufurian, because that plot has been beaten to death. It was not even original to GT, as it was already introduced in a DBZ movie (the one with the monster who looks like Anilaza).

It is possible that this individual is not even from U7, but found a way to travel between universes and is looking for something in U7. Maybe he possesses a technique similar (and inferrior of course) to the Kai Kai which allows him to travel between universes.

If the writers want Jiren to come back as a major player, they could have this man be a survivor of the mysterious Demon who killed Jiren's parents, that would be a decent tie-in. That Demon has been a mystery for way too long, plus who knows how many people he has actually killed beyond Jiren's species...

[Mister_Popo]

Not for Super. He's been distinctively in favor of self-contained stories in Super.

I honestly don't see the fundation / justification of this critique.
If Toriyama has done it enough in the past, why couldn't he simply do it again?
There are enough successful examples of this concept.
In this case it even does make sense, because the Moro arc has left some loose ends to tie.
The general appreciation for the Moro arc may even grow if placed into a bigger story.

I never said it was a critique? I merely said it feels like a Toyotarou original arc rather than Toriyama's own story concept.

But they are working on the story together.
There is no Toyotarou-only continuity for the time being.
So of course it has Toriyamas involvement and consensus.

[Yuji]

But they are working on the story together.
There is no Toyotarou-only continuity for the time being.
So of course it has Toriyamas involvement and consensus.

That's being pedantic. Of course they are working together. I am just theorizing that this arc (again, from the little we have to work on), much like the Moro arc, seems to have been more influenced by Toyotarou's artistic and writing sensibilities rather than Toriyama's.

[Ziegander]

This guy cannot be the survivor of one of the erased universes, because the Erase technique that Zeno has ignores geographical location. If you are biologically from a certain universe, you can be anywhere you want, but you will still be erased. Literally everything is erased. There is a scene where even a small object that Obuni carried (a photo of his family) was erased when U10 lost.

Right. I get that. That's why it would be i n t e r e s t i n g.

I hope he is not a Tsufurian, because that plot has been beaten to death. It was not even original to GT, as it was already introduced in a DBZ movie (the one with the monster who looks like Anilaza).

It wouldn't be the end of the world, but it would cement for me that Toyo is, in fact, a poor writer.

If the writers want Jiren to come back as a major player, they could have this man be a survivor of the mysterious Demon who killed Jiren's parents, that would be a decent tie-in. That Demon has been a mystery for way too long, plus who knows how many people he has actually killed beyond Jiren's species...

Now, this would also be interesting...

[Mister_Popo]

But they are working on the story together.
There is no Toyotarou-only continuity for the time being.
So of course it has Toriyamas involvement and consensus.

That's being pedantic. Of course they are working together. I am just theorizing that this arc (again, from the little we have to work on), much like the Moro arc, seems to have been more influenced by Toyotarou's artistic and writing sensibilities rather than Toriyama's.

Pedantic?
We don't exactly know, as they are working together, which idea comes from Toyotarou and which comes from Toriyama.
I didn't arbitrary state which one tends to have the biggest involvement.
You however were saying it does not feel like Toriyama to do follow-up storylines.
And this would imply he could not be deeper involved with the set-up and concept of this Granola arc, if i understood you well?

He did it all the time in the original manga. There are more than enough examples of this, as i mentionned in my earlier post.
That approach of storytelling is clearly in line with Toriyamas methodism on it as far as i'm concerned.
From that perspective the rationale behind Toriyama not being firmly involved in the story outline becomes invisible.
So no, it's not my intention to be pedantic, i only tend to disagree here.

[ChronoTwigger]

So...
...minding a bit...
.. this time the culprit is not Goku.
Is Whis.

[GodVegetto91]

Technically, he is tracing.. I don’t care what people say and come up with to defend him.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I don't think 73 is a tuffle, they have same eye and skin color, but other than that they look nothing alike. I think 73 probably had an ability absorbed and his remains are being used to either give someone back their power, or bring them back to life, and maybe that someone is Granola?

Edit; I thought I should add that Baby doesn't look like a tuffle, tuffles have a human appearance. Baby is a parasite organism made by the tuffles that's been injected with tuffle DNA.

[DiscountDabi]

This guy cannot be the survivor of one of the erased universes, because the Erase technique that Zeno has ignores geographical location. If you are biologically from a certain universe, you can be anywhere you want, but you will still be erased. Literally everything is erased. There is a scene where even a small object that Obuni carried (a photo of his family) was erased when U10 lost.

Right. I get that. That's why it would be i n t e r e s t i n g.

I hope he is not a Tsufurian, because that plot has been beaten to death. It was not even original to GT, as it was already introduced in a DBZ movie (the one with the monster who looks like Anilaza).

It wouldn't be the end of the world, but it would cement for me that Toyo is, in fact, a poor writer.

I agree, I don’t want him to be a tuffle. I just figured there was too much evidence pointing to it to ignore so I brought it up.

I want something new, something fresh that takes aspects of Super that have been established and ran with them. I’ve always thought that a Dragon ball Equivalent to Marvels Gorr the God Butcher would be great for modern dragon ball. A Mortal who amassed great amounts of power in order to kill the gods, with his end goal to kill Zeno.

[Extreme_kai]

I think this Granola guy is a survivor of a calamity on his home planet or something, not the main villain. He might be looking to earth for help. Now is he a Tuffle? Only time will tell, but I think he's just a regular person looking for help. Perhaps maybe seven three's android being/race has something to do with his planet/race's destruction.

[Kataphrut]

Can i just say I like that both the anime staff and Toyotaro have unanimously slapped down Toriyama's design for Ultra Instinct Goku? The drawing that was literally just his SSG design with silver hair and eyes was one of the laziest hack-jobs Tori's ever done, and it's kind of validating that both Toei and Toyotaro ignored the slim look and made him a beef mutant. Toyo sort of went there during the ToP arc but by Moro he was like "nope, get those guns out". And now there's the new V-Jump cover design taking it to a whole new level.

[Cipher]

Not in the sense I assume DiscountDabi is referring, of the last arc's conclusion leading directly into the setup for the following arc. Normally in Super, there is a neat resolution where the damage is undone, then there is a time-skip of peace time and the next arc simply picks up retroactively on an element of a previous story-line. Super's arcs are much more self-contained, rather than the chaotic, progressive series of events that lead, for instance, the Saiyan arc into the Namek arc and into the Artificial Humans arc.

I can see the distinction and understand why people are excited for this particular kind of arc-to-arc continuity, but I guess I see the Toriyama-solo-plotted Super arcs as being some of the most interlinked in DB's catalogue. Although they end and begin without immediate continuation in terms of narrative structure, on a plot level, each one happens specifically because of the events of the previous.

In comparison, although Piccolo makes himself known the night of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, his scheme has nothing to do with the tournament, and although the Cell arc begins the same chapter the Freeza arc ends, and its prologue involves Freeza coming to Earth, ultimately nothing Trunks comes there to warn them relates to Freeza's visit. Though one may continue smoothly into the next, the subsequent story doesn't depend on the previous having happened. (I suppose Cell's power does depend on having picked up Freeza's cells during his trip to Earth, though that revelation comes much later in the arc.)

The Demon King Piccolo arc's transition into the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and the Saiyan arc's transition into Namek stand as the two instances in the original series in which we have both that kind of direct narrative continuation and links on a plot/causation level. Judging from the teaser, this arc looks to be joining those two.

[Matches Malone]

This could be a “Perfect Cell done right” scenario we’re looking at here guys, where scientists will create the ultimate fighter made of up the cells (or “DNA”) of all of the greatest fighters of the cosmos into one. What do you guys think about that?

I think perfect Cell was already "done right" back in 1992, and your idea is the same exact one. Speaking of, when was the last time modern DB stole "borrowed" an idea from classic DB and did it better ? not once.

Toriyama's design for Ultra Instinct Goku was one of the laziest hack-jobs Tori's ever done.

There's no lack of competition for that title.

[GodVegetto91]

This could be a “Perfect Cell done right” scenario we’re looking at here guys, where scientists will create the ultimate fighter made of up the cells (or “DNA”) of all of the greatest fighters of the cosmos into one. What do you guys think about that?

I think perfect Cell was already "done right" back in 1992, and your idea is the same exact one. Speaking of, when was the last time modern DB stole "borrowed" an idea from classic DB and did it better ? not once.

Toriyama's design for Ultra Instinct Goku was one of the laziest hack-jobs Tori's ever done.

There's no lack of competition for that title.

But this being would have the cells of all the beings that came after him. That would become the most OP being ever.

[MCDaveG]

Are we actually about to get an arc ending that leads into the next one?

Yes.

"Goku and his friends celebrate the salvation of the galaxy, but at the same time in another place, a new battle is brewing"

It's written somewhere here:

https://dragonball.news/news/n201214067.html

Oh god... I just really hope that after they are done with the first outside of anime and full fledged arc that is like the DB Best Hits compilation, they will really show something interesting. Honestly, only bit I liked here was giving the Grand Kaioshin some more story linked to Buu arc and Vegeta getting instant transmission and some uniqe move besides his old signature ones.

I would love them to switch the DB/Shonen tropes a bit, as I am afraid it will again be a stronger villain, who will transform, until the protagonists beat him by perfecting their techniques. Dragon Ball was never deep and complicated and where it really stood out to me, were the designs and artstyle that Toriyama came up with and even here the series is losing me as a fan a bit nowadays, as not only storywise but even design/artwise the series is kinda past it's heyday.

I am sucker for all new things in Star Wars, Dragon Ball and other franchises I love, but it is really striking, when you go back from Super to the original manga, how great and leagues over this the original is!

[Matches Malone]

But this being would have the cells of all the beings that came after him. That would become the most OP being ever.

It would also be the most pointless thing ever. If I want to watch something like that I'll just re-watch the Cell arc.

It is really striking, when you go back from Super to the original manga, how great and leagues over this the original is!

This was a comment Toriyama made during RF's promotion:

"Looking back on it, Battle of Gods was a lot of fun for me, but there wasn’t much action, and maybe not enough fan service".

This is where everything went down hill for modern DB, fan service. The reason BOG worked so well is the same reason the original manga worked, it was Toriyama's story. He was telling us the story he wanted to be told, he didn't worry about what the fans or the suits wanted. The BOG movie is proof that modern DB can be just as good as the original. The problem now is that everyone involved are more concerned about telling the stories fans want told, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell.

[Jiren The Alpha]

But this being would have the cells of all the beings that came after him. That would become the most OP being ever.

It would also be the most pointless thing ever. If I want to watch something like that I'll just re-watch the Cell arc.

It is really striking, when you go back from Super to the original manga, how great and leagues over this the original is!

This was a comment Toriyama made during RF's promotion:

"Looking back on it, Battle of Gods was a lot of fun for me, but there wasn’t much action, and maybe not enough fan service".

This is where everything went down hill for modern DB, fan service. The reason BOG worked so well is the same reason the original manga worked, it was Toriyama's story. He was telling us the story he wanted to be told, he didn't worry about what the fans or the suits wanted. The BOG movie is proof that modern DB can be just as good as the original. The problem now is that everyone involved are more concerned about telling the stories fans want told, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell.

Not to be rude, but isn't that a good thing

[UpFromTheSkies]

The reason BOG worked so well is the same reason the original manga worked, it was Toriyama's story. He was telling us the story he wanted to be told, he didn't worry about what the fans or the suits wanted. The BOG movie is proof that modern DB can be just as good as the original. The problem now is that everyone involved are more concerned about telling the stories fans want told, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell.

That's actually not true at all, he was writing a manga he thought would sell well, he wasn't just writing stories he wanted to tell. His editor would have him make changes when he thought fans wouldn't like what he was doing, for example Toriyama was going to have Androids 19 and 20 be the main villains of the Android arc, and it was his editor who suggested he create Cell and that he should transform. His editor is also responsible for Dragon Ball transitioning from an adventure story into a martial arts fighting manga because he saw how popular Fist of the North Star was and thought they could cash in on the fighting manga popularity with Dragon Ball.

[MCDaveG]

But this being would have the cells of all the beings that came after him. That would become the most OP being ever.

It would also be the most pointless thing ever. If I want to watch something like that I'll just re-watch the Cell arc.

It is really striking, when you go back from Super to the original manga, how great and leagues over this the original is!

This was a comment Toriyama made during RF's promotion:

"Looking back on it, Battle of Gods was a lot of fun for me, but there wasn’t much action, and maybe not enough fan service".

This is where everything went down hill for modern DB, fan service. The reason BOG worked so well is the same reason the original manga worked, it was Toriyama's story. He was telling us the story he wanted to be told, he didn't worry about what the fans or the suits wanted. The BOG movie is proof that modern DB can be just as good as the original. The problem now is that everyone involved are more concerned about telling the stories fans want told, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell.

You're right, because only thing I liked in ROF was actually the supporting cast having some part in the fight, even tough Gohan really sucked (until the Tournament of Power).
But frankly, ROF as a DB movie after brilliant BOG (and I love the directors' cut and all the jokes in it), Beerus and Whis being the last interesting new designs - sucked. New unnecesary transformation, bringing back Freeza with new unnecesary transformation - and all of the transformations look rudiculous - just action and not much story.
I have actually enjoyed the Broly movie, that is simmilar a lot in the second half, but with interesting visuals and choreography and somehow doesn't feels as pointless as the ROF in the end. In the show, the Freeza arc at least leads into the TOP in the end, but as a standalone movie... nah. And that's where DB started to fail for me. OK, U6 Tournament was nice idea in core, more characters, but I am not into the designs anymore past ROF, as they feel cheap and somehow not fitting and the rushed production and poor execution of anime didn't helped at all.
Tournament of Power was kinda OK at least. Even tough not really consequential.

So far, outside of Trunks arc, we get lot of filler inbetween the Buu arc and Epilogue just to fill the narrative gap, but not really worth telling in my opinion... except for BOG and few interesting things.

[SupremeKai25]

Everything will be filler so long as they don't go beyond the End of Z. I have been saying this for years and it is inevitable.

Everything is filler, because you already know the protagonists will win. That's what makes it filler.

Only the Future Trunks arc was not filler, because it took place in the Future timeline, which did not have plot armour from the End of Z. So you did not know who was going to win, and indeed look what happened

Everything else will inevitably feel like filler. Who cares about Moro and this new villain? You already know they are going to lose anyway.