"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[wertham]

This guy cannot be the survivor of one of the erased universes, because the Erase technique that Zeno has ignores geographical location. If you are biologically from a certain universe, you can be anywhere you want, but you will still be erased. Literally everything is erased. There is a scene where even a small object that Obuni carried (a photo of his family) was erased when U10 lost.

That's not entirely true in every case. It's true that the fighters of the Tournament of Power were erased with their universe, but the Zeno from Trunks' future erased his entire timeline (that means the twelve universes completely) without erasing Trunks or Mai (neither that little black cat in the manga).

About the teaser of this new arc, why is everybody assuming that the main events of the arc will take place just after the battle with Moro? It's possible that this guy would pick up 7-3 remains, then go back to whatever his planet is, and then come back after some preparations years after. I mean, this is probably the best moment to go forward to End of Z: the "5 years since the last time we've seen each other" line from Bulma would make sense more or less (as an exaggeration, but it is something that real people tend to do), and Goku training and waiting for meeting Uub will also be coherent just after the events of Moro Arc. Well, we'll see though.

[Matches Malone]

Not to be rude, but isn't that a good thing

If you write a story I want to read the story you want told, not what you think others want told.

That's actually not true at all, he was writing a manga he thought would sell well, he wasn't just writing stories he wanted to tell. His editor would have him make changes when he thought fans wouldn't like what he was doing.

There's a massive difference between how the original manga was written and how the current stories are written. If you can't see that difference then there's nothing I can say that will change that.

[Xeogran]

About the teaser of this new arc, why is everybody assuming that the main events of the arc will take place just after the battle with Moro?

Because they would make a huge deal out of it in the trailer if it was set after EoZ.

[MCDaveG]

Everything will be filler so long as they don't go beyond the End of Z. I have been saying this for years and it is inevitable.

Everything is filler, because you already know the protagonists will win. That's what makes it filler.

Only the Future Trunks arc was not filler, because it took place in the Future timeline, which did not have plot armour from the End of Z. So you did not know who was going to win, and indeed look what happened

Everything else will inevitably feel like filler. Who cares about Moro and this new villain? You already know they are going to lose anyway.

Exactly... and with Trunks arc, damn, he made this guy's future even more miserable than it was (basically his world got destroyed).

[Yuji]

Everything will be filler so long as they don't go beyond the End of Z. I have been saying this for years and it is inevitable.

Everything is filler, because you already know the protagonists will win. That's what makes it filler.

Only the Future Trunks arc was not filler, because it took place in the Future timeline, which did not have plot armour from the End of Z. So you did not know who was going to win, and indeed look what happened

Everything else will inevitably feel like filler. Who cares about Moro and this new villain? You already know they are going to lose anyway.

That's somewhat reductive. Is it "filler" in the sense that we know the characters will survive? Yes, but we have always known that the characters would survive in Dragon Ball stories, even if the possibility for death existed. It is significantly less tense, I agree, but there is still enough room for character growth, tension and the death of new characters (such as Merus).

[wertham]

About the teaser of this new arc, why is everybody assuming that the main events of the arc will take place just after the battle with Moro?

Because they would make a huge deal out of it in the trailer if it was set after EoZ.

Or maybe they're waiting to make the whole announcement at Jump Festa this weekend. I know, it's wishful thinking, it's better to low our expectations.

Everything will be filler so long as they don't go beyond the End of Z. I have been saying this for years and it is inevitable.

Everything is filler, because you already know the protagonists will win. That's what makes it filler.

Only the Future Trunks arc was not filler, because it took place in the Future timeline, which did not have plot armour from the End of Z. So you did not know who was going to win, and indeed look what happened

Everything else will inevitably feel like filler. Who cares about Moro and this new villain? You already know they are going to lose anyway.

I think that Super kind of achieved "having stakes" after ROF in different creative ways, given that the End of Z limits a lot what can happen in these stories. Champa Arc played with the idea that maybe U7's Earth was moved to Universe 6 before EoZ, because it took place only on Earth, so Goku & Co. could have lost the Champa tournament. As you said, in Future Trunks Arc someone could have killed Trunks or, as it happened, destroyed his entire timeline. Universe Survival Arc, well, obviously didn't put U7 in any real danger, but the other universes, specially U6, could have been wiped out for real. And Freeza was revived, so that's another unexpected turn that didn't contradict EoZ. The Broly movie subverted expectations making Broly survive the fight. Moro Arc began in the same way: we didn't know if Namek and the namekians were alright at the EoZ, so anything could have happened to them. But then...

Then Moro and his minions went to Earth and fought against Yamcha, Krillin, Ten Shin Han, Gohan and Piccolo, and everything was spoiled. Toriyama and Toyotaro managed to have some kind of illusion of danger until then. Yes, having Vegeta go to train on Yardrat in order to learn new techniques was unexpected and didn't contradict EoZ, but making Goku and Vegeta fight Moro on Earth was nonsense, and it made me think that something was off. That's one of the reasons, I think, that made this arc boring to some people. And if the next arc happens in the same period of time it will have the same problem.

I really wish that Super this time skips beyond EoZ, so it could have stakes of any kind as it has been doing from Champa to ToP Arc. Or maybe it can take another route, like having Beerus or Whis existence at risk, for example. Anything that can leave out this sense of "filler" that IMO the other arcs managed to omit.

[SupremeKai25]

Everything will be filler so long as they don't go beyond the End of Z. I have been saying this for years and it is inevitable.

Everything is filler, because you already know the protagonists will win. That's what makes it filler.

Only the Future Trunks arc was not filler, because it took place in the Future timeline, which did not have plot armour from the End of Z. So you did not know who was going to win, and indeed look what happened

Everything else will inevitably feel like filler. Who cares about Moro and this new villain? You already know they are going to lose anyway.

That's somewhat reductive. Is it "filler" in the sense that we know the characters will survive? Yes, but we have always known that the characters would survive in Dragon Ball stories, even if the possibility for death existed. It is significantly less tense, I agree, but there is still enough room for character growth, tension and the death of new characters (such as Merus).

But that's the problem, they are new characters. Merus is as fleshed-out as a toaster.

Do you want to compare Merus' potential death with Goku's potential death? It's just two different levels of tensions, there's no comparison.

Back in Z, Goku didn't have plot armor, and indeed he died in the Saiyans and Cell saga. But in Super, Goku has plot armor, because you know he'll be fine, he's literally there at the End of Z. There's way less tension. In Z, there's this ominous element of uncertainty that is missing from Super.

Obviously they are not "filler" in the sense that they are not canon, but still they feel like filler, they're fundamentally inconsequential.

[Yuji]

Everything will be filler so long as they don't go beyond the End of Z. I have been saying this for years and it is inevitable.

Everything is filler, because you already know the protagonists will win. That's what makes it filler.

Only the Future Trunks arc was not filler, because it took place in the Future timeline, which did not have plot armour from the End of Z. So you did not know who was going to win, and indeed look what happened

Everything else will inevitably feel like filler. Who cares about Moro and this new villain? You already know they are going to lose anyway.

That's somewhat reductive. Is it "filler" in the sense that we know the characters will survive? Yes, but we have always known that the characters would survive in Dragon Ball stories, even if the possibility for death existed. It is significantly less tense, I agree, but there is still enough room for character growth, tension and the death of new characters (such as Merus).

But that's the problem, they are new characters. Merus is as fleshed-out as a toaster.

Do you want to compare Merus' potential death with Goku's potential death? It's just two different levels of tensions, there's no comparison.

Back in Z, Goku didn't have plot armor, and indeed he died in the Saiyans and Cell saga. But in Super, Goku has plot armor, because you know he'll be fine, he's literally there at the End of Z. There's way less tension. In Z, there's this ominous element of uncertainty that is missing from Super.

Obviously they are not "filler" in the sense that they are not canon, but still they feel like filler, they're fundamentally inconsequential.

But that's fundamentally an issue of character writing if you feel like Merus' death lacked impact rather than the setting of the story. The ending of the future Trunks arc was bittersweet not because any character we actually care about died, but rather because Trunks' life and happiness was affected as a result of the timeline erasure. Likewise, there is still potential for loss for any of the main cast without necessarily putting their lives in danger; there is potential for loss of new, well-written and memorable characters (such as Beerus, for example, who I assume everyone at this point has gotten attached to; or just an entirely new character that does not get much screentime but instantly becomes a fan-favorite like the original Bardock). There can be tension and stakes without killing off any of the main cast, even though, I once again reiterate that I agree that the element of uncertainty in Z was something that gave it the edge Super needs; I'm just arguing that it's not necessary to achieve the same effect if the writing is competent.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But this being would have the cells of all the beings that came after him. That would become the most OP being ever.

It would also be the most pointless thing ever. If I want to watch something like that I'll just re-watch the Cell arc.

It is really striking, when you go back from Super to the original manga, how great and leagues over this the original is!

This was a comment Toriyama made during RF's promotion:

"Looking back on it, Battle of Gods was a lot of fun for me, but there wasn’t much action, and maybe not enough fan service".

This is where everything went down hill for modern DB, fan service. The reason BOG worked so well is the same reason the original manga worked, it was Toriyama's story. He was telling us the story he wanted to be told, he didn't worry about what the fans or the suits wanted. The BOG movie is proof that modern DB can be just as good as the original. The problem now is that everyone involved are more concerned about telling the stories fans want told, rather than the stories they themselves want to tell.

You're right, because only thing I liked in ROF was actually the supporting cast having some part in the fight, even tough Gohan really sucked (until the Tournament of Power).
But frankly, ROF as a DB movie after brilliant BOG (and I love the directors' cut and all the jokes in it), Beerus and Whis being the last interesting new designs - sucked. New unnecesary transformation, bringing back Freeza with new unnecesary transformation - and all of the transformations look rudiculous - just action and not much story.
I have actually enjoyed the Broly movie, that is simmilar a lot in the second half, but with interesting visuals and choreography and somehow doesn't feels as pointless as the ROF in the end. In the show, the Freeza arc at least leads into the TOP in the end, but as a standalone movie... nah. And that's where DB started to fail for me. OK, U6 Tournament was nice idea in core, more characters, but I am not into the designs anymore past ROF, as they feel cheap and somehow not fitting and the rushed production and poor execution of anime didn't helped at all.

The Broly movie has less participation from the support cast, even more fights (the film is made almost entirely of that, no plot) and even more fanservice than the RoF movie. Except for animation and choreography, how is it any different?

Ironically, unlike BoG, Toriyama was responsible for the script for both films, that is, even more involved in the story.

People pretend as if he was forced to create totally different stories than he wanted after BoG or as if he was now doing just what the fans ask.

Everything will be filler so long as they don't go beyond the End of Z. I have been saying this for years and it is inevitable.

Everything is filler, because you already know the protagonists will win. That's what makes it filler.

Only the Future Trunks arc was not filler, because it took place in the Future timeline, which did not have plot armour from the End of Z. So you did not know who was going to win, and indeed look what happened

Everything else will inevitably feel like filler. Who cares about Moro and this new villain? You already know they are going to lose anyway.

Except that making the story take place on a different timeline is the perfect way to not create any real consequences for the series' main timeline, which is exactly what happened. Trunks moved on and went to another world just like he had before, and on the main timeline everything remained the same

[OrangeBanana]

What has disappointed me throughout super honestly has been the fact that all these arcs start off great and to me a lot of them looked like they might have long-lasting consequences, maybe a character might permanently die who was with us for a long time affecting all the others substantially and so on, but nah like was the case with merus he died and only like a handful of people gave a shit (Goku, Beerus, Jaco maybe Whis) even what he did to Moro was pretty useless (I will agree this point might age like milk in the coming chapter if anything comes of the Beerus GP meeting).
Its like the writer is wrestling with wanting to change things up but then goes back on it and the arc ends up not changing anything for the most part, if a change happens its usually a positive one by the end ie BoG=Goku and beerus become mates, RoF=Frieza is defeated anyways, Universe 6/7=Goku and co win etc.

I hope Toriyama or Toyotaro really place their foot down and go forth to shake things up substantially. Dragon ball for the past couple of years has felt so stale in how everything always plays out and while its great pandering to the majority of the fans, I always wonder what it could be if it took real risks with its stories.

[Matches Malone]

Dragon ball for the past couple of years has felt so stale in how everything always plays out and while its great pandering to the majority of the fans, I always wonder what it could be if it took real risks with its stories.

They won't even let Goku and Vegeta change their clothes, what makes you think they'll take any risks or change things up ? they've said time and again starting with RF that fan service is their #1 priority. The BOG movie showed us that there's plenty of places left for the story and characters to go, the problem is that the writers won't go there.

[Kinokima]

Dragon ball for the past couple of years has felt so stale in how everything always plays out and while its great pandering to the majority of the fans, I always wonder what it could be if it took real risks with its stories.

They won't even let Goku and Vegeta change their clothes, what makes you think they'll take any risks or change things up ? they've said time and again starting with RF that fan service is their #1 priority. The BOG movie showed us that there's plenty of places left for the story and characters to go, the problem is that the writers won't go there.

Agreed people are just getting themselves hyped up for something with little evidence

[OrangeBanana]

Dragon ball for the past couple of years has felt so stale in how everything always plays out and while its great pandering to the majority of the fans, I always wonder what it could be if it took real risks with its stories.

They won't even let Goku and Vegeta change their clothes, what makes you think they'll take any risks or change things up ? they've said time and again starting with RF that fan service is their #1 priority. The BOG movie showed us that there's plenty of places left for the story and characters to go, the problem is that the writers won't go there.

Yeah I agree and that's what kinda sucks about Dragon ball, the universe is so rich in the stories it could tell but that all depends on the writer to take risks inorder to tell those stories. I hope tho that one of these days we will get a banger of an arc that blows everyone away and takes some risks with its story events and consequences.

[Ziegander]

Imagine if "the Dragon Room" were given even 1/20th the amount of funding that Marvel Comics as a whole publishing company gets and Shueisha started ordering multiple different manga set in the Dragon Ball universe that were allowed to explore places and stories apart from Goku and Vegeta's mainline Dragon Ball adventures. New writers, new artists, new books and a whole slate of interconnected narratives that expand the lore and focus on other characters. I for one think that it's past time for, at least, a Z-Fighters book, centered on Earth and on Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, sometimes 17 and 18, Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotsu, even Roshi and Bulma. There's so much wealth of storytelling they could tap back into with an Earth-centric book that's just being cast to the wayside right now.

But we could even get a book centering around the Universe 6 Saiyans, that would be sick, and another that centers around the Pride Troopers. The possibilities are literally limitless, but they either can't or won't go there.

[Yuji]

Imagine if "the Dragon Room" were given even 1/20th the amount of funding that Marvel Comics as a whole publishing company gets and Shueisha started ordering multiple different manga set in the Dragon Ball universe that were allowed to explore places and stories apart from Goku and Vegeta's mainline Dragon Ball adventures. New writers, new artists, new books and a whole slate of interconnected narratives that expand the lore and focus on other characters. I for one think that it's past time for, at least, a Z-Fighters book, centered on Earth and on Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, sometimes 17 and 18, Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotsu, even Roshi and Bulma. There's so much wealth of storytelling they could tap back into with an Earth-centric book that's just being cast to the wayside right now.

But we could even get a book centering around the Universe 6 Saiyans, that would be sick, and another that centers around the Pride Troopers. The possibilities are literally limitless, but they either can't or won't go there.

I believe this may happen once Toriyama retires from writing Super and Toei/Shueisha take creative helm. We already see an exploration of the idea through Heroes' anime and manga. Toriyama himself seems far less concerned over exploring his world and more-so focused on telling concise, self-contained, character-driven stories, whilst Toei and Shueisha attempt to be far more ambitious in their own projects and stories (to varying degrees of results).

[Mister_Popo]

Dragon ball for the past couple of years has felt so stale in how everything always plays out and while its great pandering to the majority of the fans, I always wonder what it could be if it took real risks with its stories.

They won't even let Goku and Vegeta change their clothes, what makes you think they'll take any risks or change things up ? they've said time and again starting with RF that fan service is their #1 priority. The BOG movie showed us that there's plenty of places left for the story and characters to go, the problem is that the writers won't go there.

I agree on that.
The Moro arc has some nice plottwists and concepts, but the narrative is pretty generic.
That's because they tend to play it overly safe.
Even the concept and overal upset of the TOP-arc was more daring and renewing than the Moro arc.
Vegeta and Goku meet new villain, they go train to become stronger, Z-fighters fight the henchmen first, villain transforms a few times and becomes stronger, Goku has to break his limits to fight him. That's about it. There is no 'deeper story'.
There is a lot of fanservice in the Moro arc but very little 'stuff we haven't seen before'.

Let's hope the Granola arc at least has a slightly more intriguing overall narrative, more like the Zamasu arc.

[precita]

I just wish they'd move the heavy focus away from Vegeta for a bit for other characters. Super has focused only on Goku/Vegeta since it started and we've now sat through so many arcs with the same two characters in the forefront.

DBZ split up the main cast focus a lot better and I don't know why they can't do it now.

[DiscountDabi]

I just wish they'd move the heavy focus away from Vegeta for a bit for other characters. Super has focused only on Goku/Vegeta since it started and we've now sat through so many arcs with the same two characters in the forefront.

DBZ split up the main cast focus a lot better and I don't know why they can't do it now.

Not can’t, won’t. All I want from modern dragon ball is basically the dragon ball equivalent to marvels Gorr the God Butcher. A person who hates the gods and gains power through killing gods and getting stronger with the end goal to kill Zeno.

[SupremeKai25]

I am fine with the focus constantly being on Goku, since he is the main character. It is just how it works. I am not a Goku fanboy, but I realize that he is supposed to have the spotlight all the time because he is -the main character-. Side characters may get the spotlight in some fights, but ultimately they are just side characters.

Talking about the villains, Moro is trash, 7-3 is trash, I stand by my belief that they should just recycle the villains from Heroes. Hearts is conceptually very interesting and has comeplling motivations, Zamasu is super popular and three-dimensional, so bring these two back and I promise the manga will reach a new peak of popularity.

I mean...

Not can’t, won’t. All I want from modern dragon ball is basically the dragon ball equivalent to marvels Gorr the God Butcher. A person who hates the gods and gains power through killing gods and getting stronger with the end goal to kill Zeno.

This is basically Hearts. He is a mortal who seeks to overthrow Zeno, as he believes that no creature should have the power to erase everything in one second (an objectively correct observation). He aims to be the "Ultimate Godslayer" and wants to kill all the Gods and usher in an age of ningen supremacy.

[wertham]

I am fine with the focus constantly being on Goku, since he is the main character. It is just how it works. I am not a Goku fanboy, but I realize that he is supposed to have the spotlight all the time because he is -the main character-. Side characters may get the spotlight in some fights, but ultimately they are just side characters.

Well, Goku was the main character in the old days, but he was put aside many times to make room for characters like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, even Piccolo. He died before Vegeta's arrival, was injured twice during the Freeza Arc, was ill during the Android Arc, was training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber during the Cell Arc, and was dead again during most of the Boo Arc. Goku is one of my favorite DB characters, but I miss having a chance to miss him for a while.