"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Maybe it's a little early to say, but the juxtaposition between Vegeta and Granolah again seems suggestive here, and I quite like it:

Vegeta has been told to start from scratch, has accepted it and is admittedly doing very small things, but - importantly - he's going about things in the right way, and may well get the due reward of that.

Granolah, by contrast, has been told to make a fresh start in life instead of clinging to revenge, but instead he's continuing to do the wrong thing, and now he's going about it in the wrong way by simply wishing himself to be the strongest (so, going for it in a big way, too), and it seems the condition underscores that this wrongful approach will come to grief.

I look forward to seeing how these opposing character arcs intersect, beyond the fight that will doubtless come down the line.

Good observation hadn't caught it. Toyotãro throws these out once in a while.

[TBMx]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

Its like people want Vegeta to be Mary Sue who gets everything perfectly the first time and never does anything bad.

You mean like Goku? The guy he's meant to be rivalling?

If Vegeta is gonna get spotlight and have a big role then I want him to earn it. If he could just pull of Hakai like it was nothing it would degrade its value when he does something more impressive.

Goku's already degraded its value by doing just that.

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Firstly, I have zero interest in giving Viz a click. Any Dragonball update I get is from Emosh from youtube.
Second no, he succeeds in Hakaiing the pebble by the end of the chapter. Like thats his big moment.
This isn't giving Vegeta his own thing, this is giving him something Goku did much better with no effort, having never seen it. Giving Vegeta this is indirect Goku worship that the writers are doing intentionally. The thing they're doing to make Vegeta look good, they know actually makes Goku look much better. Vegeta learning to Hakai a pebble after struggle makes Goku look boss. Not Vegeta. As Goku Hakai'd
half of Merged Zamasu, forcing him to use a hostage to survive it.

Patience isn't going to change those facts, only confirm them.

[DiscountDabi]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

Its like people want Vegeta to be Mary Sue who gets everything perfectly the first time and never does anything bad.

You mean like Goku? The guy he's meant to be rivalling?

If Vegeta is gonna get spotlight and have a big role then I want him to earn it. If he could just pull of Hakai like it was nothing it would degrade its value when he does something more impressive.

Goku's already degraded its value by doing just that.

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Firstly, I have zero interest in giving Viz a click. Any Dragonball update I get is from Emosh from youtube.
Second no, he succeeds in Hakaiing the pebble by the end of the chapter. Like thats his big moment.
This isn't giving Vegeta his own thing, this is giving him something Goku did much better with no effort, having never seen it. Giving Vegeta this is indirect Goku worship that the writers are doing intentionally. The thing they're doing to make Vegeta look good, they know actually makes Goku look much better. Vegeta learning to Hakai a pebble after struggle makes Goku look boss. Not Vegeta. As Goku Hakai'd
half of Merged Zamasu, forcing him to use a hostage to survive it.

Patience isn't going to change those facts, only confirm them.

Oh I see, you’re an Emosh Fanboy. That...Explains a lot.


And again, what you mean “By the End of the Chapter”? These are the first 9 pages out of a 45 page chapter. You’re acting like you have the whole thing when you don’t. There are bound to be more Hakai stuff with Vegeta in this chapter.

And honestly if anyone is doing Goku worship it you and Emosh given you wank the Hakai Scene in the Black Arc (Something Goku Said He Messed up on given how painfully slow he was erasing Zamasu) and comparing it to Vegeta using Hakai on a Pebble and Destroying it Instantly instead. Given he’s bound to do more in the chapter, it comes across as confirmation bais.

Now could this be that Vegeta won’t do anything with Hakai more than this? Yeah, he might. But we won’t know until we get the entire chapter.

[OLKv3]

Its funny how many people are taking shots at Toyotaro and Toriyama again for 9 pages out of a 45 page Chapter. Calm down and be Patient.

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

Its like people want Vegeta to be Mary Sue who gets everything perfectly the first time and never does anything bad.

You mean like Goku? The guy he's meant to be rivalling?

If Vegeta is gonna get spotlight and have a big role then I want him to earn it. If he could just pull of Hakai like it was nothing it would degrade its value when he does something more impressive.

Goku's already degraded its value by doing just that.

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Firstly, I have zero interest in giving Viz a click. Any Dragonball update I get is from Emosh from youtube.
Second no, he succeeds in Hakaiing the pebble by the end of the chapter. Like thats his big moment.
This isn't giving Vegeta his own thing, this is giving him something Goku did much better with no effort, having never seen it. Giving Vegeta this is indirect Goku worship that the writers are doing intentionally. The thing they're doing to make Vegeta look good, they know actually makes Goku look much better. Vegeta learning to Hakai a pebble after struggle makes Goku look boss. Not Vegeta. As Goku Hakai'd
half of Merged Zamasu, forcing him to use a hostage to survive it.

Patience isn't going to change those facts, only confirm them.

Goku has clearly seen Hakai before using it on Zamasu. Things can happen off screen. Are you honestly whining because Vegeta isn't learning faster than Goku? That's your gripe? Are you seriously doing this?

[Magnificent Ponta]

something Goku did much better with no effort, having never seen it.

You're free to dislike what you want, but frankly, every single element of this particular claim has been established to be factually incorrect. Goku has said he messed it up, so it's hard to see how it was done 'better'; he clearly had to use extreme effort, as he put literally all his power into doing it in this improvised fashion; and the reactions from the Chapter he uses it in show that both he and Vegeta had seen it before at that point, since the attack was recognised as Beerus's move.

Maybe you should give Viz a click; whatever you're doing now doesn't seem to be doing much for you - except perhaps fuelling a persistent sense of negativity.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Don't bother with this guy, I've argued with him a few times and he's been acting like this since the beginning of the arc when Vegeta said that Ultra Instinct doesn't suit him, discarding the idea of ​​using this technique.

First he complained about the new god technique mentioned by Beerus being a cheap alternative to Vegeta because if Vegeta matched Goku with this, it would be somewhat contrived and would undermine the strength of the UI which shouldn’t be easily achieved in a short space of time. Then he complained about Vegeta "surrendering his mind" to destruction but not to the UI, and now that. Basically he wanted Vegeta to learn the UI.

We don't know yet whether the development of Vegeta's new path will turn out to be good or not, but I fail to see how playing the game of catching up Goku for the thousandth time would be any better (especially when it had been established in RoF that Ultra Instinct would be especially more difficult for Vegeta due to his mindset, so for him it would always be twice as much effort with worse results)

[Kinokima]

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

Its like people want Vegeta to be Mary Sue who gets everything perfectly the first time and never does anything bad.

You mean like Goku? The guy he's meant to be rivalling?

If Vegeta is gonna get spotlight and have a big role then I want him to earn it. If he could just pull of Hakai like it was nothing it would degrade its value when he does something more impressive.

Goku's already degraded its value by doing just that.

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Firstly, I have zero interest in giving Viz a click. Any Dragonball update I get is from Emosh from youtube.
Second no, he succeeds in Hakaiing the pebble by the end of the chapter. Like thats his big moment.
This isn't giving Vegeta his own thing, this is giving him something Goku did much better with no effort, having never seen it. Giving Vegeta this is indirect Goku worship that the writers are doing intentionally. The thing they're doing to make Vegeta look good, they know actually makes Goku look much better. Vegeta learning to Hakai a pebble after struggle makes Goku look boss. Not Vegeta. As Goku Hakai'd
half of Merged Zamasu, forcing him to use a hostage to survive it.

Patience isn't going to change those facts, only confirm them.

Goku has clearly seen Hakai before using it on Zamasu. Things can happen off screen. Are you honestly whining because Vegeta isn't learning faster than Goku? That's your gripe? Are you seriously doing this?

It’s especially funny because this same person was complaining before that whatever Vegeta’s new power up would be would have no build up whatsoever

[Yasai9001]

Something I would really like for Vegeta is to be able to access his ikari state. I say this because Beerus mentioned to Vegeta that in order for him to get better and grow to newer heights, he has to let his past go all the while maintaining the simple concept of destruction; destruction is constantly on Beerus' mind and for Vegeta to be able to have such power with the Hakai, he too, will need to solely have destruction on his mind without any kind of guilt holding him back. Now how does this tie into his ikari state? Very simple: a Saiyan's Oozaru form is a Saiyan in a state of constant destruction, which is why those who can't control their Oozaru form is hellbent on destroying everything in their path. Vegeta had mastery over his Oozaru state when he had his tail, so if he would be able to channel that power and use the Ikari form like Broly and master it, perhaps that would aid him in being able to use the Hakai simply because that Saiyan instinct would be telling him to just ruin everything. In a sense, it's giving Vegeta a power-up, albeit not too great since an Oozaru power up is only ten times, but it also helps him use a technique that he is being taught by Beerus, which has the sole purpose of "destruction", and it'd help him be able to become stronger in more ways than one. It's a stretch and I don't expect them to go about it that way, but I believe it WOULD be the best way to go about it.

[Xeogran]

Something I would really like for Vegeta is to be able to access his ikari state.

Maybe if they dare to mention Broly outside of movie and special chapters. Toyotaro is either keeping him as a secret card to play this arc, or he may not use him at all for some reason.

[Kinokima]

Something I would really like for Vegeta is to be able to access his ikari state.

Maybe if they dare to mention Broly outside of movie and special chapters. Toyotaro is either keeping him as a secret card to play this arc, or he may not use him at all for some reason.

Broly is off on world so there is no reason for him to be part of this arc. I am sure if they wanted him to be for fan service he could but besides fans expectations I don’t see any reason Broly needs be included

Goku and Vegeta are enough for the Saiyan side of things. And quite honestly I am not sure what they would even do with Broly’s character.

[Matches Malone]

Broly is off on world so there is no reason for him to be part of this arc. I am sure if they wanted him to be for fan service he could but besides fans expectations I don’t see any reason Broly needs be included

Goku and Vegeta are enough for the Saiyan side of things. And quite honestly I am not sure what they would even do with Broly’s character.

I completely agree, as it seems that people want Broly involved just for the sake of it, rather than any story reason. This happened with the Moro arc as well, as a number of fans were expecting Broly to show up out of nowhere and do things for reason.

[Xeogran]

Broly is off on world so there is no reason for him to be part of this arc. I am sure if they wanted him to be for fan service he could but besides fans expectations I don’t see any reason Broly needs be included

Goku and Vegeta are enough for the Saiyan side of things. And quite honestly I am not sure what they would even do with Broly’s character.

Why can't he get any more development? They can do a lot with his character, taming his Ikari form, for one (like Kale did in the anime).

Goku and Vegeta aren't the only Saiyans alive, so I don't see why there should be always just focus on these two. Considering that Granolah likes to travel through space, he may just land on Broly's planet and encounter him. Lots of opportunities.

[Thani]

The problem here is that Toyotaro and Toriyama are expanding on the universe and not actually using the characters that are part of said expansion, even when the main threat would absolutely force them to be involved.

Freeza choosing not to involve himself meant nothing narratively because Moro wouldn't give two shits about who Freeza is, he would just be seen as another fascinating meal for him to hunt - there's no reason at all for the tyrant not to be forced to be involved. The same applies for Broly. Moro was looking to consume life energy, and could pretty much search the whole universe for it, but never bothered to go after the massive energy signature that were Freeza and Broly? Despite wanting to be as prepared as possible against Vegeta and Goku, he never thought of empowering himself on Freeza's and Broly's energy beforehand?

Even now, Freeza has only been mentioned in passing. At the very least, he's been promised a greater role.

Also stuff happening off-screen has always been Toriyama style when he wanted to give powerups without really working for it. Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten obtaining Super Saiyan were all off screen. Elder Kai's ritual was mostly off-screen (but to be fair, it wasn't very interesting to show anyway). Goku and Vegeta obtaining Super Saiyan Blue happened off-screen. Vegeta learning the god-blue technique was off-screen, same as Goku learning how to "complete" Super Saiyan Blue. Gohan's training with Piccolo was off-screen. Both Goku's and Vegeta's training in antecipation for Moro were off-screen.

It's nothing new to the series, honestly.

[TBMx]

Vegeta will still struggle to Hakai a pebble in the chapter so I fail to see what difference waiting makes.

Not that ill read it in the first place.

Its like people want Vegeta to be Mary Sue who gets everything perfectly the first time and never does anything bad.

You mean like Goku? The guy he's meant to be rivalling?

If Vegeta is gonna get spotlight and have a big role then I want him to earn it. If he could just pull of Hakai like it was nothing it would degrade its value when he does something more impressive.

Goku's already degraded its value by doing just that.

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Firstly, I have zero interest in giving Viz a click. Any Dragonball update I get is from Emosh from youtube.
Second no, he succeeds in Hakaiing the pebble by the end of the chapter. Like thats his big moment.
This isn't giving Vegeta his own thing, this is giving him something Goku did much better with no effort, having never seen it. Giving Vegeta this is indirect Goku worship that the writers are doing intentionally. The thing they're doing to make Vegeta look good, they know actually makes Goku look much better. Vegeta learning to Hakai a pebble after struggle makes Goku look boss. Not Vegeta. As Goku Hakai'd
half of Merged Zamasu, forcing him to use a hostage to survive it.

Patience isn't going to change those facts, only confirm them.

Oh I see, you’re an Emosh Fanboy. That...Explains a lot.


And again, what you mean “By the End of the Chapter”? These are the first 9 pages out of a 45 page chapter. You’re acting like you have the whole thing when you don’t. There are bound to be more Hakai stuff with Vegeta in this chapter.

And honestly if anyone is doing Goku worship it you and Emosh given you wank the Hakai Scene in the Black Arc (Something Goku Said He Messed up on given how painfully slow he was erasing Zamasu) and comparing it to Vegeta using Hakai on a Pebble and Destroying it Instantly instead. Given he’s bound to do more in the chapter, it comes across as confirmation bais.

Now could this be that Vegeta won’t do anything with Hakai more than this? Yeah, he might. But we won’t know until we get the entire chapter.

The writers are snickering when they say Vegeta Hakaing a pebble with struggle is the "success", while Goku Hakaing half of Merged Zamasu is the "failure". They know it's the other way round and they know we know it. We're meant to think Vegeta is a bum so we like Goku more. There's no doubt about that.

[TBMx]

Also if you’re not gonna read it then why are you here? Just to spread needless negativity towards a chapter you have 9 page of context for? For all you know he’ll Hakai a whole planet like Beerus did.

Be Patient.

Don't bother with this guy, I've argued with him a few times and he's been acting like this since the beginning of the arc when Vegeta said that Ultra Instinct doesn't suit him, discarding the idea of ​​using this technique.

First he complained about the new god technique mentioned by Beerus being a cheap alternative to Vegeta because if Vegeta matched Goku with this, it would be somewhat contrived and would undermine the strength of the UI which shouldn’t be easily achieved in a short space of time. Then he complained about Vegeta "surrendering his mind" to destruction but not to the UI, and now that. Basically he wanted Vegeta to learn the UI.

We don't know yet whether the development of Vegeta's new path will turn out to be good or not, but I fail to see how playing the game of catching up Goku for the thousandth time would be any better (especially when it had been established in RoF that Ultra Instinct would be especially more difficult for Vegeta due to his mindset, so for him it would always be twice as much effort with worse results)

UI or actually back up his own claims that he's a prodigy who needs no mentor and invent his own way.

Now he's choosing to study under the guy who ordered the extermination of his people instead of the Angel that taught him.

And he's choosing to study a tier of techniques below the angels hoping that somehow makes him surpass Angel techniqes.

And now he's struggling to Hakai a pebble when Goku Hakai'd half of Merged Zamasu with no established training or established as having ever seen it before. It was never set up.

So I'm convinced that we're meant to think of Vegeta as garbage. Takao Koyama did the same thing in the Toei Broly movie. He admitted he used Vegeta in a way to diminish him, as a foil to show Goku as more of a hero. That's clearly what they're doing with him now.

[Thani]

Honestly, TBMx kinda has a point here. Hakai, in the manga, was already estabilished a technique that you could use back in the Future Trunks arc and wasn't shown to be not working properly there. In fact, the technique was explicitly stated to be ineffective against Merged Zamasu by Beerus himself, because Hakai can't actually destroy an immortal being (otherwise Beerus wouldn't admit somberly that he can't kill an immortal).

Spoiler:

Of course, Vegeta doing it more easily than Goku is noted, but he's also doing against a pebble with no resistance, while Goku used all his power precisely because he was trying to destroy an extremely powerful fusion whose ki was clearly going to resist his attack. It's not the same thing at all. Goku's feat was far more directly impressive, and he was shown to pull it off exactly as Beerus did against Zamasu. If Goku didn't say "I messed it up back then" we wouldn't even have reason to think that he did, at all.

It feels like Toyo, like Toriyama before him, is actually forgetting stuff he estabilished beforehand.

Also I just want to add that, from what I got out of the notes and translations from Herms, I'm feeling that I'm really going to dislike this chapter overall.

[Magnificent Ponta]

If Goku didn't say "I messed it up back then" we wouldn't even have reason to think that he did, at all.

It feels like Toyo, like Toriyama before him, is actually forgetting stuff he estabilished beforehand.

Seems to me that the answer lies in the much more plausible conclusion that Hakai is gaining further development as a concept, rather than Toyotarou 'forgetting' anything. We wouldn't have had reason to suppose any of the stuff Beerus has now explained to Vegeta is part of Hakai as such either, which was previously just depicted as wiping stuff out with a huge amount of energy. Turns out, there's more to it than that.

[Kinokima]

If Goku didn't say "I messed it up back then" we wouldn't even have reason to think that he did, at all.

It feels like Toyo, like Toriyama before him, is actually forgetting stuff he estabilished beforehand.

Seems to me that the answer lies in the much more plausible conclusion that Hakai is gaining further development as a concept, rather than Toyotarou 'forgetting' anything. We wouldn't have had reason to suppose any of the stuff Beerus has now explained to Vegeta is part of Hakai as such either, which was previously just depicted as wiping stuff out with a huge amount of energy. Turns out, there's more to it than that.

Toyotaro also highlighted the part when Goku used it against Zamasu so he is obviously isn’t forgetting what he wrote before.

[Matches Malone]

Seems to me that the answer lies in the much more plausible conclusion that Hakai is gaining further development as a concept, rather than Toyotarou 'forgetting' anything.

This is exactly what's happening and it's a step in the right direction. Goku being able to use it the way he did felt off, so it's great to know there's more to it then it first seemed. I'm personally really happy with these new developments with Beerus and Vegeta, and I can't wait to see where it leads.

[batistabus]

UI or actually back up his own claims that he's a prodigy who needs no mentor and invent his own way.

Now he's choosing to study under the guy who ordered the extermination of his people instead of the Angel that taught him.

And he's choosing to study a tier of techniques below the angels hoping that somehow makes him surpass Angel techniqes.

And now he's struggling to Hakai a pebble when Goku Hakai'd half of Merged Zamasu with no established training or established as having ever seen it before. It was never set up.

A couple things:

Part of Vegeta's character is being 2nd banana to Goku. That's been well established in every arc since their first encounter, and was outright stated by Vegeta in the Boo arc. He'll always try to be number one, but so far, he's always failed in the end.

Goku utilized Hakai (a different application) pretty well during the Future Trunks arc. You can say Goku utilized it better than Vegeta on his first time....that may be true. We don't know if Goku practiced Hakai before using it against Zamasu. We don't know if the version he was using is easier or more difficult than the explosive version Vegeta is learning now. Let's just say they're equal and Goku succeeded just by observing Beerus...so what? Just because Goku did better on his first try, or is better suited to the technique, that doesn't mean Vegeta can't do better with some training. Vegeta was stronger than Goku at birth, but look at them now.

Goku said he messed up the technique. We know he did it slow relative to Beerus, and it didn't succeed in defeating Zamasu. He also didn't know the fundamentals of the technique, so maybe he was simply doing a cheap imitation, like Kame-sen'nin's Migatte no Gokui.

Goku thinks Hakai is "horrible". He hates Beerus taking delight in Destruction. Even if Goku would make a good Hakaishin based on his ability, his personality is opposed to the technique (and the position), so it's not a good fit. He said the Mafuba didn't suit him, either.