"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kanassa]

But do you think it will be enough to cram all of episode 67 in a chapter? I know it's 45 pages but that still seems like squeezing it.

It'll have plenty of breathing room if Toyotaro dedicates the chapter to ending it. He won't be doing any more choreography once Zeno comes, meaning there's more room for information per panel, so 45 pages is plenty.[/quote]
Toyo could dedicate the whole chapter to two halfs. Struggle with the Merged Zamasu army and then Zeno's arrival. He can easily drag this out for the chapter afterwards to be dedicated to after Zeno's destruction.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, they are out of options, Zamasu has become too overpowered by the end of this chapter. I guess next month Zeno will erase that timeline along with Zamasu, like in the anime. I wonder if they will get directly to the Tournament of Power next or there will be that Universe 7 vs. Universe 9 exhibition matches.

[OLKv3]

My theory on Goku able to use the "Hakai" power is due to his God Ki inside of him. I don't think he can fully use it like Beerus can since he is not a GoD and I don't think he can do it on someone that is way stronger than him.

That's less a theory and more like it's specifically what happened. Goku concentrates all of SSB's power into his hand, and that lets him copy Hakai. Hakai is also much slower than Beerus'. Beerus' version worked instantly

[Speedster]

Eventually I got to read chapter 25 in full. Great chapter. In fact, I have to say that Toyotaro’s take for the events since chapter 21 is well superior to the anime's in every single way.
1. No bullshit Ikari form and no Trunks learning Mafuba from a video in under 2 minutes.
2. No bullshit genki sword. Instead here Trunks just cuts in half merged Zamasu who was on the verge of unmerging due to the fusion time limit.
3. No rushing of the fights. Toyotaro spent two densly-paneled 40+ page chapters (24 and 25) to cover what Toei rushly covered in just one-ish (episode 66 and the very start of episode 67).
4. Far more interesting storytelling. From the way the Kaioshins were organically introduced to the scene and be actually useful (instead of just being there as a plot device for Vegetto) to the way the whole fight against Zamasu is played out and to the way Zamasu eventually gets multiplied and brings despair, is all interesting and coherent.

Pretty sure that next chapter (chapter 26) will be the end of the arc. Basically it will be the events of episode 67, with Future Zeno being summoned, destroying the universe/multiverse of the future timeline, the heroes escaping to the main timeline and Trunks returning back to an earlier time point in Future timeline after Whis timetravels to let Future Whis and Beerus know about the situation. The whole Goku bringing Future Zeno to Present Zeno though might go to chapter 27 and be used as a set-up for the tournament.

[kinisking]

The hakai thing doesn't make sense at all. Neither Goku nor Vegeta see Beerus do that in the manga. Massive mistake by Toyo, massive. The manga's just becoming more and more overrated.

They clearly talked like they've seen it before. It was probably off screen.

[dodonpa]

My main problem with Goku using Hakai is that it should be a skill reserved to the Gods of Destruction.

Toyotaro told us Trunks can heal because he is an apprentice of the Kaio Shin. Furthermore, Toyotaro stated that only Kaio Shin apprentices can heal and they lose the skill when they get promoted to full Kaio Shins. In other words, there are godly skills linked to godly positions.

But now Goku can do Hakai, so I have to believe that every person with god ki can use Hakai. A Kaio Shin (God of Creation) can use Hakai too then? Makes no sense at all.

[Araki]

My main problem with Goku using Hakai is that it should be a skill reserved to the Gods of Destruction.

Toyotaro told us Trunks can heal because he is an apprentice of the Kaio Shin. Furthermore, Toyotaro stated that only Kaio Shin apprentices can heal and they lose the skill when they get promoted to full Kaio Shins. In other words, there are godly skills linked to godly positions.

But now Goku can do Hakai, so I have to believe that every person with god ki can use Hakai. A Kaio Shin (God of Creation) can use Hakai too then? Makes no sense at all.

Yeah, i love when some people give Toyotaro a pass for all the massive BS he pulled out of his ass this arc but somehow nitpick about every minor thing when it's the anime.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

My main problem with Goku using Hakai is that it should be a skill reserved to the Gods of Destruction.

Toyotaro told us Trunks can heal because he is an apprentice of the Kaio Shin. Furthermore, Toyotaro stated that only Kaio Shin apprentices can heal and they lose the skill when they get promoted to full Kaio Shins. In other words, there are godly skills linked to godly positions.

But now Goku can do Hakai, so I have to believe that every person with god ki can use Hakai. A Kaio Shin (God of Creation) can use Hakai too then? Makes no sense at all.

I'm sorry, but there's a gaping canyon between your point about the healing ability and your complaint about non-GoD's using this destruction technique where a logical thread should be. What exactly doesn't make sense about it? As far as I'm aware, there's never even been an implication that this power was an exclusive ability.

You can't just say things, there has to be a sound foundation on which to base arguments and criticisms like this or it doesn't mean anything.

[The gr]

You guys may hate hakai Goku but at least the in Universe acknowledge goku was using a hakai unlike ss2 caulifa, where she pull This out of nowhere in the most lamest way with no one acknowledging it

It looks like the manga is trying to tell us Goku Saw Beerus using that technique, Beerus probably told Goku and Vegeta don't use this technique because their energy will be wasted

[Nero<>Akira]

Listen.... it's time to admit it... this arc has been on some garbage for a few months already and this chapter was no exception. I'm almost starting to think people give it a pass cause of the art. The art is outstanding and nobody can deny that... but this writing is just bad and fanfic level. People saying super's anime is like a fanfic need to sit down and look at the manga; the manga is fanfic levels now and it's a shame cause i wasn't saying this before they started fighting Zamasu in the future in the manga. The hakai technique is BULLSHIT. There is no way around it or defending it. Goku is not in the least bit interested in becoming a GoD and there is no hints even alluding to him being shown the technique... NONE. Whis and Beerus are just training Goku and Vegeta. They are in no way grooming him to be the next GoD. There is no way he should know how it works or that it even exists. It would've been bad in the anime if he did that but it's worse here cause he has no knowledge of it and wasn't there when Beerus used it on Present Zamasu. I don't want to hear anything about "well maybe he was shown the technique". No. There is nothing suggesting this is even the case and is grade a speculation and damage control. It was bad enough last week with the full powered SSB crap. Trunks still on the sidelines. More stalling. Then this multiplying thing.. it's lame. Cloud Zamasu was honestly better and more scary and worthy of arguably of the strongest gods ever. Spirit Bomb sword was not as bad as the hakai. Know why? Cause it served a certain narrative purpose within the arc in the anime.

[The gr]

Listen.... it's time to admit it... this arc has been on some garbage for a few months already and this chapter was no exception. I'm almost starting to think people give it a pass cause of the art. The art is outstanding and nobody can deny that... but this writing is just bad and fanfic level. People saying super's anime is like a fanfic need to sit down and look at the manga; the manga is fanfic levels now and it's a shame cause i wasn't saying this before they started fighting Zamasu in the future in the manga. The hakai technique is BULLSHIT. There is no way around it or defending it. Goku is not in the least bit interested in becoming a GoD and there is no hints even alluding to him being shown the technique... NONE. Whis and Beerus are just training Goku and Vegeta. They are in no way grooming him to be the next GoD. There is no way he should know how it works or that it even exists. It would've been bad in the anime if he did that but it's worse here cause he has no knowledge of it and wasn't there when Beerus used it on Present Zamasu. I don't want to hear anything about "well maybe he was shown the technique". No. There is nothing suggesting this is even the case and is grade a speculation and damage control. It was bad enough last week with the full powered SSB crap. Trunks still on the sidelines. More stalling. Then this multiplying thing.. it's lame. Cloud Zamasu was honestly better and more scary and worthy of arguably of the strongest gods ever. Spirit Bomb sword was not as bad as the hakai. Know why? Cause it served a certain narrative purpose within the arc in the anime.

Yay more people using the terms fanfic with out knowing the meaning of that word,I will be rich if I count a dollar by hearing that word, because apparently vegeta new techniques is fanfic

there nothing indicating that technique is exclusive to the God of destruction, Toyotaro needed a better explanation for this and how trunks was in the side line in This chapter,he sliced mz in half

And Goku did acknowledge This technique from Beerus, implying he saw Beerus using this or probably Beerus taught him that either way I don't think is necessary giving goku this move,is very stupid and worthless and I think is the worst part of the chapter

I'm eager to see Toyo potrayal of the Top,he can't screw this up because that arc had the most basic story like u6

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Listen.... it's time to admit it... this arc has been on some garbage for a few months already and this chapter was no exception. I'm almost starting to think people give it a pass cause of the art. The art is outstanding and nobody can deny that... but this writing is just bad and fanfic level. People saying super's anime is like a fanfic need to sit down and look at the manga; the manga is fanfic levels now and it's a shame cause i wasn't saying this before they started fighting Zamasu in the future in the manga. The hakai technique is BULLSHIT. There is no way around it or defending it. Goku is not in the least bit interested in becoming a GoD and there is no hints even alluding to him being shown the technique... NONE. Whis and Beerus are just training Goku and Vegeta. They are in no way grooming him to be the next GoD. There is no way he should know how it works or that it even exists. It would've been bad in the anime if he did that but it's worse here cause he has no knowledge of it and wasn't there when Beerus used it on Present Zamasu. I don't want to hear anything about "well maybe he was shown the technique". No. There is nothing suggesting this is even the case and is grade a speculation and damage control. It was bad enough last week with the full powered SSB crap. Trunks still on the sidelines. More stalling. Then this multiplying thing.. it's lame. Cloud Zamasu was honestly better and more scary and worthy of arguably of the strongest gods ever. Spirit Bomb sword was not as bad as the hakai. Know why? Cause it served a certain narrative purpose within the arc in the anime.

Another example that irks me for the same reason as the last one I responded to. I'm down for criticism, but none of this has any objectivity, any logical foundation for anything. It's just a long string of strange assumptions and word salads. For example:

...this writing is just bad and fanfic level. People saying super's anime is like a fanfic need to sit down and look at the manga; the manga is fanfic levels now...

This doesn't actually mean anything. I'm not saying that because I dislike the sentiment behind it or anything like that; No, it literally doesn't mean anything! I've mention my disdain for the word "fanfiction" before, and this perfectly demonstrates why. Look at these statements and define what he means by "fanfiction" for me...

I'm not actually going to wait, but I'd guess that I'd either get cricket chirps, or I'd get many diverse answers. One of the basic rules of writing is that if lines of dialogue are interchangeable between characters, you're doing something wrong, I'd apply the same principle to words. If the word you're using is interchangeable with any other non-descript derogatory term, your comprehension of your own position is weak.

The hakai technique is BULLSHIT. There is no way around it or defending it. Goku is not in the least bit interested in becoming a GoD and there is no hints even alluding to him being shown the technique... NONE. Whis and Beerus are just training Goku and Vegeta. They are in no way grooming him to be the next GoD. There is no way he should know how it works or that it even exists. It would've been bad in the anime if he did that but it's worse here cause he has no knowledge of it and wasn't there when Beerus used it on Present Zamasu. I don't want to hear anything about "well maybe he was shown the technique". No. There is nothing suggesting this is even the case and is grade a speculation and damage control.

This denies that a certain aspect of a story is defendable, while referencing the defense that's been commonly put forward, but not even bothering to offer a refutation besides "Goku and Vegeta aren't training to become GoD's, therefore it's impossible they've seen this technique in training", and that "It didn't happen because it hasn't been referenced beforehand"*. A total non-sequitur, needless to say. Another example of someone mistaking the subversion of expectations with "asspulling".

*See: Every major development since the beginning of Dragon Ball

I'm not trying to police or be aggressive, but Christ! It's downright obnoxious that so many people don't seem to know how to form an argument, especially when this is the quality we've been getting for the past 6 months! I wouldn't rate myself among the greatest contributors to discussion on this site, but I do pour a little bit of brainpower into everything I put out, and if I don't think it's worthy of saying, I don't post it.

[Marlowe89]

I wasn't even aware that so many people had an issue with Goku using Hakai until reading this thread.

Seriously, what's the problem again? Maybe Goku was training for the technique off-screen, or maybe Goku, being the fighting prodigy he was said to be, just observed Beerus using Hakai beforehand and finally has the power to mimic the ability now. Just because it's associated with the Gods of Destruction doesn't mean it can only be used by a God of Destruction.

Besides, it took all of Goku's concentrated power just to use something one time that Beerus can seemingly activate casually.

[OLKv3]

I was looking at the video for Geekdom's review of Episode 66, and hahaha, the comments for that are about the same as the comments we're getting now for this chapter. Just replace Goku and Hakai with Trunks and Spirit Sword

This fanbase is hilarious

[Nero<>Akira]

I've seen the arguments and posts that handwave Toyotaro pulling this hakai stuff off. Sorry, but there is nothing to back up claims that Goku saw it. It's just speculation at its best and there's no way you can prove it. There are no hints; there are no allusions; there is no subtlety to it; he just did it because Toyotaro is a Goku fanboy and is pulling off GT levels of wank. You can say maybe Goku saw it, but there is nothing reasonable to support that claim considering Beerus is NEVER involved with training and just sleeps, watches, or eats as Whis does all the work. The most he did was talk about that room that's like the RoSaT and that wasn't even in the manga lol Beerus has no reason to even show them this technique. He's not even the type of character to even boast about the type of abilities that he has. After the U6 arc, everyone was on Earth. Goku & Vegeta weren't even training with Whis. So no, there is no reason he should even be able to use it. Saying GoD's should be the only beings able to use that technique is not headcanon considering they are the only beings shown to use it, so it's an obvious conclusion anybody can come to especially since it's an ability to.. you know.. DESTROY that only beings whose job is to destroy use. It's like saying its fine if Goku can just manipulate matter like Whis. Ridiculous.

[HeroR]

The hakai thing doesn't make sense at all. Neither Goku nor Vegeta see Beerus do that in the manga. Massive mistake by Toyo, massive. The manga's just becoming more and more overrated.

They clearly talked like they've seen it before. It was probably off screen.

Which is kind of a problem. Goku learned a new, very powerful technique that can erased people, yet it doesn't even get a panel flashback to when Goku and Vegeta first saw it. Which is why the Haki comes off as a cheap asspull instead of awesome.

My main problem with Goku using Hakai is that it should be a skill reserved to the Gods of Destruction.

Toyotaro told us Trunks can heal because he is an apprentice of the Kaio Shin. Furthermore, Toyotaro stated that only Kaio Shin apprentices can heal and they lose the skill when they get promoted to full Kaio Shins. In other words, there are godly skills linked to godly positions.

But now Goku can do Hakai, so I have to believe that every person with god ki can use Hakai. A Kaio Shin (God of Creation) can use Hakai too then? Makes no sense at all.

Reading this reminds me of a RPG class system. I can upgrade my unit, but I'll lose my handy healing magic.

On subject, you do make a good point. Goku learning Haki in the anime wouldn't be much a problem since Haki was never called a god skill and Kai don't have different skills based on rank. Although, a God of Destruction can't create according to Beerus. So in theory, Toyo's version should allow the Kais to used Haki. Maybe it has a high skill ceiling.

You guys may hate hakai Goku but at least the in Universe acknowledge goku was using a hakai unlike ss2 caulifa, where she pull This out of nowhere in the most lamest way with no one acknowledging it

It looks like the manga is trying to tell us Goku Saw Beerus using that technique, Beerus probably told Goku and Vegeta don't use this technique because their energy will be wasted

Serious question, why do when people defend the manga they pull something from the anime they don't like and say, 'well, the anime did this'. Who cares what the anime does, we're discussing the manga. The anime isn't perfect, so using the flaws of the anime to defend questionable writing in the manga doesn't prove your point.

Also, Super Saiyan 2 is different from Haki since Super Saiyan 2 is just an extension of Super Saiyan according to Toriyama. It isn't anything special. Haki, however, have been a technique used only by the Gods of Destruction, so Goku can't just whip it out without some explanation other than 'he learned it off-screen'.

I wasn't even aware that so many people had an issue with Goku using Hakai until reading this thread.

Seriously, what's the problem again? Maybe Goku was training for the technique off-screen, or maybe Goku, being the fighting prodigy he was said to be, just observed Beerus using Hakai beforehand and finally has the power to mimic the ability now. Just because it's associated with the Gods of Destruction doesn't mean it can only be used by a God of Destruction.

Besides, it took all of Goku's concentrated power just to use something one time that Beerus can seemingly activate casually.

You named the problem. Learning such a powerful technique off-screen screams cop-out and asspull. If we got a flashback or something of Beerus showing Goku and Vegeta for some reason, maybe this would fly. However, all we got is Goku and Vegeta knowing what Haki is with no context. Why should we assumed Beerus did Haki in front of Goku and Vegeta? Who did he used it on? Was he showing it off?

[The gr]

Serious question, why do when people defend the manga they pull something from the anime they don't like and say, 'well, the anime did this'. Who cares what the anime does, we're discussing the manga. The anime isn't perfect, so using the flaws

Is just a comparison,at least the in Universe acknowledge genkidama sword and hakai,caulifa ss2 is the worst type of asspull or Deux ex machina, Because no one commented on that amazing power

[batistabus]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to overstep any boundaries here, but the tone in this thread specifically has made me consider taking a break from Kanzenshuu after 7 years far too often as of late.

I get that some of you are frustrated with this product for one reason or another. You don't have to like everything with the Dragon Ball label on it, and you're more than welcome to offer criticism.

That being said, if you really don't like the manga, or really hate a certain part of it, do us all a favor and just say your piece and leave. There is no need to post page after page after page constantly berating the thing. Kanzenshuu exists so people can talk about Dragon Ball -- I had always assumed -- because they like it. I don't want to hear the same people talk about how much they hate the manga month after month, page after page with hardly a single positive thing to say. I have plenty of problems with the anime, and I much prefer the manga overall, but I still REALLY LIKE the anime. I may criticize it harshly at times, but I praise it just as often. I can't understand how some of you seem to hate the product so passionately, yet are some of the most active posters in this thread. Toyotaro isn't here...you're not going to change the product. Why are you so interested in talking about something you do not like? Do us all a favor and reign it in, please.

Jinzoningen MULE is completely right. These meaningless terms like "asspull", "fanfiction", "jobbing", etc. don't mean anything. If you're going to harshly criticize the product, at least put some thought into it. Otherwise, you might as well be typing a wall of "I HATE IT I HATE IT".

[TKA]

Why doesn't Merged Zamasu have nipples? Dragonball characters have always had nipples. Come on, Toyotaro. Apart from that, the art is next level. Those pages of Vegeta getting up and using his Gamma Burst Flash were exquisitely drawn.

If we count non canon stuff then... Dragon fist? or the monkey fist he pulled against Piccolo daimaou that he never once did again that was probably just a normal punch that had a giant ape on the BG?

I like how Goku has no original techniques. All he's done is copy other people's moves, which is excellent. Goku has no problem admitting people are stronger than him and learning from them. Vegeta, on the other hand, only has moves he created himself because he's the strongest and doesn't need anyone's help. That's what he tells himself. There's a reason all of Vegeta's moves are just varying sized ki blasts.

Gosh, is that really necessary? That's something that I hate about Super characterization, why portray characters in such regression? That's something that I would expect from Android arc/Movie 6 Vegeta, not the same guy after the Boo arc, damn.

He literally saved Goku's life, and in that same motion prepared an attack to fire on them. You were expecting him to gently whisk Goku away, check if he's okay and then shoot them? This is a serious battle and a surprise attack works best when it's a surprise.

This must be part of toriyama Outline

Trunks split zamas in half but it causes more problem,mz duplicated himself, all Hope is lost until the godly Zeno button saves the day,I can be the only who noticed the similarity between episode 66-67 to this chapter

so why did the anime go genki dama and universe maker and this goes trunks goes behind and duplications.

Because Toriyama's notes are vague outlines and the anime staff and Toyotaro hammer out the detail for each adaptation.

Speculation: the notes Toriyama gave could've been something like "Trunks slashes Zamasu in half like he did Frieza, but that just creates a bigger problem as more Zamasus appear." The anime did it's Spirit Bomb Sword thing and then Zamasus appearing in the sky, while Toyotaro has Trunks do a sneak attack which results in many Zamasu clones.

It's the same general idea, just executed vastly differently. Don't be so literal. Fiction is more fluid art than it is rigid fact.

You know... I think I'm fine with that. As long as they keep their filthy, incorrectly-opinionated fingers off of this thread.

Having been here since this thread's inception: this place isn't that much better, to be honest. A lot of incoherent stuff gets posted here every month before the chapter is even out. I know you're joking, but still.

I already read the full chapter tho. There was no explanation given what so ever.

Gowasu is explaining what's happening. I recommend waiting for the official translation instead of making your assertions on untranslated chapters (unless you know Japanese or something, in which case forget this).

most of this shit padding. There's no reason this and last chapter couldn't just be one cohesive one. Padding it so much is not doing it any favors. They aren't exhausting all their options before calling Zeno, they are all just pulling power and techniques from nowhere, they all fail, Zamasu fucks around, repeat.

Uh, no. Padding means nothing of value is happening and you can cut it out and nothing really changes. That's not what's going on here. Every option they exhaust is an option they no longer have. Both Vegeta and Goku both pulled out new techniques and both failed, but both left their marks on Zamas. They've used up all of their trump cards and now it's up to Zenoh to save the day, I imagine. This isn't padding; this is a losing battle that was written to be that way. Big difference.

[batistabus]

You know Trunks, maybe your surprise attack would have worked if you you didn't yell "ZAMASU!" before you did it

He was trying to prevent Zamasu from killing Mai.