"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Xeogran]

Am I the only one that thinks Moro's abilities he got from 73 now being permanent because reasons...is fucking dumb?

I thought it's only his own ability that's permanent (the backup he left in 73), but not the one he copies from other fighters (like from Vegeta or Piccolo)
Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Robo4900]

Well that was a fucking terrible chapter.

The intense visuals of the damage Moro is doing to the characters is quite cool, but it feels pretty unearned, and you can easily see it all being undone a couple of chapters from now.

Sorry, but this arc is really bad. There are some solid ideas (magic-based villain, the ki fission technique, Seven-Three's gimmick), but this is a really terrible storyline (the magic-based villain has no goals or character beyond "I AM BAD MAN WHO DOES BAD THINGS.", Vegeta is carrying out the same role he has for a while now of running into battle with a new technique only for it to be countered and him to be rendered irrelevant, and Seven-Three is literally stated to have zero personality or emotions of his own, which completely robs that neat idea of its potential for a fun villain character).

If Toei adapt this into anime, they will need to make HEAVY changes to salvage it.

[experted_luke]

Well, I guess Merus was written to be the character that sacrifices himself/angel powers, instead of having Beerus intervene and destroying Moro for the threat he poses to his own Universe. It's nice to see someone to come to the rescue, for sure, but an Angel doing it before a God of Destruction? Sheesh.

[TheNingen]

Am I the only one that thinks Moro's abilities he got from 73 now being permanent because reasons...is fucking dumb?

I thought it's only his own ability that's permanent (the backup he left in 73), but not the one he copies from other fighters (like from Vegeta or Piccolo)
Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's probably it. I'm personally exhausted as I just got off work so I might have misunderstood. But I also wouldn't doubt it to be the case either.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Sorry, but this arc is really bad.

Not sure who you are apologizing too seeing as nobody here was involved in the making of the arc....

But every arc in Dragon Ball Super has been bad. In fact between Super, Heroes and GT, there hasn't actually been a good arc in Dragon Ball since the Kid Buu one.

[superfan2024]

Sorry, but this arc is really bad.

Not sure who you are apologizing too seeing as nobody here was involved in the making of the arc....

But every arc in Dragon Ball Super has been bad. In fact between Super, Heroes and GT, there hasn't actually been a good arc in Dragon Ball since the Kid Buu one.

Zamasu Arc was pretty good until the last few episodes.

[Kinokima]

I honestly supported the Merus theory for so long but with the way the chapter ended that theory now feels too obvious to me. I don’t know what but I think there will be more to it. I guess time will tell.

They can certainly still go with the obvious Merus sacrifice (and I still think if they go this route he will just become mortal and join the galactic patrol for good) but I just feel by making you think they will go that route now they actually won’t.

Not much to say about the chapter. It was very brutal and I enjoyed that but some of that is taken away knowing the characters will be healed next chapter. Consequences and drama in Dragon Ball are pretty short lived. Of course at this point I also kind of just want Moro to be taken down. He’s kind of outlived his welcome.

I do wish I hadn’t been spoiled by Goku getting a hole punched through him because I thought that scene was really well done and I would have liked to have been surprised by it. But c’est la vie.

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 62:

- Vegeta gets his ass kicked in a surprisingly effective and dramatic fashion
- Aaaaaand Vegeta's abilities have been copied. Pretty much making Vegeta's training worthless in the grand scheme of the narrative, especially with how now that Vegeta can't even touch Moro.
- How are the rest of the supporting cast watching the fight on Kami's Lookout? I don't remember any camera's being there.
- Fair play to Dende for wanting to be involved in the battle against Moro so that he can properly fulfil his duty as God of Earth. Nice little bit of characterisation there.
- Goku, Gohan and Piccolo teaming up to fight Moro was not just the highlight of the chapter but one of the best moments of the entire arc. Brilliant panelling, great choreography, nice use of abilities that compliment the characters fight styles well, and the ending was amazingly graphic and inventive. I mean, I know Goku's not going die from getting stabbed in the chest (not to mention it isn't the first time something like this has happened), but it certainly elevated the stakes in a way that no other Dragon Ball Super story arc has been able to do so far, bar perhaps Future Bulma getting killed off in the opening episode of the Future Trunks arc. Great shit all around.
- Gohan trying in vain to cause some damage to Moro, only for Moro not only no sell it, but to quickly dispatch Gohan akin to swatting down a fly with a rolled up newspaper, made laugh far more than it should have. I can't help but feel if Gohan felt like more of a crucial character in the plot of Super in general, or was perhaps portrayed as far stronger than we know him in the manga, that moment would had more dramatic gravitas. Oh well.
- This chapter is honestly the best Moro has ever been written in the manga by country fucking mile. He's calm, extremely cunning, uses his stolen abilities in a pragmatic sense and speaks in an incredibly condescending tone without needing to go full large ham to sound so ridiculously grandiose or act so painfully generic as if he was a Saturday morning cartoon villain of the week. This all reminds me so much of Cell (more specifically Imperfect Cell) was written. If only he was like this for the entire arc, maybe I would have liked him.
- Why did Whis have to get involved? He's supposed to be a neutral character. At this stage Beerus has every right to get involved in the main conflicts as well if this is how "neutral" characters act in story arcs that don't concern them. Hell, this act was foreshadowed by Beerus himself stating they were going to Earth. Looks like the Gods have bailed out the main cast again.
- No... no... no. Why is Merus being thrust back into the main plot? What's the point of even establishing the grave consequences of Angels getting involved and taking sides in major conflicts if that's just going to be ignored for plot convenience? The set up with Merus' return at least seems to be Merus stalling for time so that Dende can heal the cast, but that begs the question...
- What the fuck can the cast do at this point, even if they get fully healed? Moro is so stupidly so much more powerful than everyone else, not mention has the traits of several unique and powerful characters that it would take some kind of special ability to perhaps close the gap in strength. And with fusion of the table what else would the cast have to possible fight Moro wit--

--

--

--Goku's going to use Perfected Ultra Instinct to kick Moro's ass isn't he?

Overall thoughts... One of the best chapters of the arc. Shame about the ending, though.

[Lord Frieza]

Well, I guess Merus was written to be the character that sacrifices himself/angel powers, instead of having Beerus intervene and destroying Moro for the threat he poses to his own Universe. It's nice to see someone to come to the rescue, for sure, but an Angel doing it before a God of Destruction? Sheesh.

I agree.

I've just caught up on the manga, and decided to sign in just throw in my two sent.

When this arc started I predicted that Goku and Vegeta were going to have to sacrifice their god ki in order to force Moro into a more db typical battle. It now seems likely that Merus may be the one to fulfil that role, an idea I am not on bored with for a number of reasons.

1) While Merus is a member of the Galactic Patrol, Moro has more of a genuine connection to Goku and Vegeta as an antagonist. Thematically they should be the one's to make a sacrifice to beat him.

2) Dragon Ball has always struggled with giving it's narrative stakes. Super especially has this issue as others have said. Having Goku and Vegeta sacrifice the power they have spend an entire series building up would do this. It would be a very sour blow to them, but it would be the right thing to do to stop this enemy.

3) It opens up the story to have more stakes for future arcs. A prime example is Freeza. Without their God power, he is now a major threat they have not chance against and he can come back at any time.

The problem this arc has is the same one Dragon Ball and especially Super have been running up against for years. While the Freeza, Cell and Buu arcs ended a long time ago, the series just can't move past them. It keeps playing into guidelines it fell into over the course of those stories and nomatter what is try and liven it up, the creators and Toe are to scared to actually evolve or change that.

This arc as a lot of great ideas and Moro dose have the potential to be a great villain but no effort is made to flesh him out. He's an acient evil wizard, a character type which opens up tons of doors for character development of at least detailed backstory. More and more Zamasu feels like fluke rather then intentional. For all the problems the Black arc has, you can't deny that it has the best villain the franchise has seen in years.

Sad to say coming back to DB been a disappointment for me. I've moved on, changed a lot in just over a year. Not only have I met a lovely lady in that time, I'm going to marry her and am living a type of life I could only dream of befor... but DB hasne't. I'm not asking for it to change at it's heart, I dont want it to become DB Multiverse or anything, but you can change a series without changing it's soul. Shows like Doctor Who are a good example, hell befor the Freeza arc Dragon Ball itself was always changing. But after that point it seemed to tunnel vision.

Oh well it was at least nostalgic to catch up and as a villain fan, I really like Moro and his goons a lot. They just could have been so much more.

I likely won't come back again after this. You all take care and have fun.

[Peach]

This saga is getting boring and drawn out at this point..

He feels like a rehash of Cell the way he keeps using everyone's abilities.

[DiscountDabi]

Am I the only one that thinks Moro's abilities he got from 73 now being permanent because reasons...is fucking dumb? I want to like the manga. And I've found Moro slowly growing on me. Not much, but moreso than he was. And I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but this writing is seriously crap. Why is the copy ability no longer without time limit? Something that was never hinted at or alluded to that came with 73? Toyo is literally pulling threats out of his ass that had no set up or prior mention before just to make Moro more dangerous and I cannot ignore it at all.

Yeah, no. Its pretty explicitly clear that its only the abilities that 7-3 had already Copied when he ate him that became permanent. He said “Did I fail to mention that the abilities 7-3 copied are now mine forever without any pesky time limits”. If it was all of the abilities, he would have said all the abilities.

[Xeno Goku Black]

[For all the problems the Black arc has, you can't deny that it has the best villain the franchise has seen in years.

Not really an achievement considering the series did in fact finish in 1995.

Beerus wasn't a villain, Frieza was just an old villain, Hit wasn't a villain and Jiren wasn't a villain.

So Goku Black and Zamasu were almost literally the only actual villains in 20 years. Of course you can't deny it, there's no competition to be had in the first place.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I agree with Lord Beerus mostly. Though seriously..

What the hell are the Z fighters supposed to do at this point? Moro is so damn OP that they can barley graze him without the bastard regenerating. He's basically Perfect Cell with magic at this point, how the fuck are they supposed to kill him? Vegeta will get smacked trying to defuse him, Goku isn't going to do much better, hell the only hope Goku has is triggering MUI at the last minute again and that's always a wildcard. The Upper B tier fighters are fucked, they'll just get annihilated trying to fight Moro.

Merus is more than likely a distraction, most likely to buy time for the cast to their HP up to max, but I fail to see how anyone other than Merus or Beerus is doing shit to him. Beerus might as well join the fight at some point, because if Merus is on earth, Beerus is too. And if I have the feeling that Merus serving as a distraction was Whis's idea, this might be a plan to try and give the Z fighters assistance for a final stand.

I feel if Moro is that much of a bitch to kill, Beerus will enter the ring when Merus feels obligated to use his full power at Whis's urged discretion(Merus dying will be on Whis after all and he doesn't want to be taking the brunt of the Grand Priest's wrath).

[DiscountDabi]

I agree with Lord Beerus mostly. Though seriously..

What the hell are the Z fighters supposed to do at this point? Moro is so damn OP that they can barley graze him without the bastard regenerating. He's basically Perfect Cell with magic at this point, how the fuck are they supposed to kill him? Vegeta will get smacked trying to defuse him, Goku isn't going to do much better, hell the only hope Goku has is triggering MUI at the last minute again and that's always a wildcard. The Upper B tier fighters are fucked, they'll just get annihilated trying to fight Moro.

Alright, I’ve seen people talk about his regeneration and he’s broken and harder to take down. Its really not. He can’t regenerate like Cell. Because he doesn’t have Cells abilities. He has Piccolos. And last I checked Piccolo Can’t Do that.

[LoganForkHands73]

This chapter was certainly visceral. There's a sense of hopelessness, but none of it has been organically developed. Moro is basically Toyotaro's latest overpowered OC at this point, purely existing to kick everyone's asses. He's completely lost any semblance of individuality besides his dumb "everything is my meal" catchphrase. It's tragic, really. His quip about Vegeta's Big Bang Attack was pretty funny though. Also, him preventing Piccolo's almost certainly useless self-destruct attack was also a blessing.

I vehemently disagree that Super has had no good arcs. For the most part, I've loved this era of Dragon Ball, as flawed as it can often be. However, there are times like these when I feel like fully moving on, as I'm simply not getting any enjoyment from this particular storyline. If it weren't for COVID, I probably would have by now. I'm at the start of a new chapter in life -- I've got a career I've been working hard for, a girlfriend to please, etc. So it feels weird and regressive to still be hanging around hankering for the next underwhelming Dragon Ball Super manga chapter. I've got a pool outside, so I think I'm just gonna grab a beer and chill beside it with the lads. At least that'll be enjoyable.

[Kagari]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 62:
- Gohan trying in vain to cause some damage to Moro, only for Moro not only no sell it, but to quickly dispatch Gohan akin to swatting down a fly with a rolled up newspaper, made laugh far more than it should have. I can't help but feel if Gohan felt like more of a crucial character in the plot of Super in general, or was perhaps portrayed as far stronger than we know him in the manga, that moment would had more dramatic gravitas. Oh well.

That's just it though, he's been portrayed incredibly strong in the manga (as well as the anime) so it's really the point that he, along with everyone else, aren't able to do anything. Toyotarou tends to favor him along with Vegeta though, so it's no surprise he got a lot of panel time.

[goku the krump dancer]

"I AM BAD MAN WHO DOES BAD THINGS."

Zamasu and MAYBE Freeza aside, which Dragon Ball Villain wasn't like that? I ask because we can go over a list of who our favorite villains are in the series and for what ever reasons we have for liking said villain, "Motive" isn't at the forefront since most of em are just bad dudes who like to flex their muscles because they can. Which isn't a bad thing, because whats most important is how a villain acts around the other characters and not so much why he's after what he/she is after.

[Robo4900]

Not sure who you are apologizing too seeing as nobody here was involved in the making of the arc....

A lot of people enjoy Super, even though I don't very much, so I try to remember to be courteous about that.

But every arc in Dragon Ball Super has been bad. In fact between Super, Heroes and GT, there hasn't actually been a good arc in Dragon Ball since the Kid Buu one.

Eh. BOG was okay. U6 tournament was okay. Most of the anime filler/breather stuff ranges from good to great. Black arc had some good parts, and probably would have been a pretty solid thing in general if the ending hadn't sucked.

Personally, I'd argue Evil Dragons was pretty good, but I get that that's controversial. Reframing this a little to "Unreservedly good", which is something I'd say about almost all of DB and Z's arcs... I'd say we haven't had one that's unreservedly good since Namek.

Zamasu Arc was pretty good until the last few episodes.

Even before the end, the arc was a bit slow and messy, Trunks being on the level he's on makes no sense, Beers and Whis are clunkily handled, the Mafuba is made far less interesting and ultimately wasted, Vegetto is similarly wasted, and "Evil Goku" is an inherently stupid concept that ultimately amounted to nothing in the story; it would be a far less convoluted version of the same story if you take out the "Who is Black?" mystery entirely, have it be Zamas from the word go, and have the messing around about that in the present more revolve around the gang wanting to deal with him in their timeline, which Beers kindly does when they realise his ill intentions. But then of course, you don't get Evil Goku or a new colour of hair for Saiyans... -_-

It was an underdeveloped, fanfic-y mess. It played with some fun concepts and had some engaging characters, but even if you ignore the ending (a big thing to ignore, since it's a masterclass in how not to end anything ever, but the journey is more important than the destination, so we can put it aside...), the arc is only okay. It's on the same tier as Super #17 IMO -- it's fanfic-y, stupid, needless, and self-indulgent as all hell, but it's an enjoyable ride.

"I AM BAD MAN WHO DOES BAD THINGS."

Zamasu and MAYBE Freeza aside, which Dragon Ball Villain wasn't like that?

I mean, Freeza IS like that. But it works, because that arc doesn't need anything deeper. The Freeza arc isn't about Freeza, it's about Namek, it's about Vegeta, it's about the struggle for the balls between three factions, it's about Kuririn, Gohan, and Bulma being hopelessly overpowered in this crazy situation, it's about Goku continuing his journey into his Saiyan heritage, etc. Freeza is arguably the least-interesting thing going on in that story, he just needs to be a big, moustache-twirler we can root against. The final boss that the heroes fight at the end after dealing with all the henchmen and at the end of their character arcs in the main story. So, he is that, and it works very well.

The criticism "This villain isn't deep or substantive enough" will always depend on the story, is my view. And for this story, you need something deeper than "HAHA I AM BAD!!" for similar reasons that Avengers: Infinity War wouldn't have worked if Thanos had just been a moustache-twirling "HAHA I AM BAD" character (seriously, imagine if Thanos was literally just Freeza but big and purple, and you'll see the problem. And yet, Freeza works great in the Namek arc, because we didn't need a particularly deep villain to act as that arc's "final boss").

The Moro arc is not like the Freeza arc, however. It's more like the Saiyan arc, or the 22nd Tenkaichi; it's VERY heavily about the central villain, so you need that villain to be a really solid character. In the Saiyan arc, we had Vegeta, a character many prefer over the other far-longer-reigning mainstays like Goku (granted, a lot of his depth wouldn't be explored until later, but I'd argue even in the Saiyan arc, he was a fleshed-out character with an arc of his own; he's the prideful prince who's never met a difficult challenge before, and he has to confront this nobody from nowhere who's challenging him, and he gets thwarted at every turn, until he's an incoherent pile of flesh on the ground, crawling back home with his tail between his legs... If he still had a tail!), and in the 22nd Tenkaichi, we had Tenshinhan, who was kinda the prototype for all the villains-turned-heroes in the franchise, and arguably executed far better than any of those other turns; in just 20 half-hour episodes, he goes from one of the most contemptable characters in the anime to one of the gang.
Meanwhile, unlike Vegeta and Tenshinhan, Moro's arc that heavily revolves around him as a character, has nothing to work with, because Moro is dull as fuck as a character. He has no motivation, philosophy, or ideal beyond evil for the sake of evil. There's hints that there's a Thanos-type depth to him, but aside from the odd nod in that direction (and implying depth =/= depth, fwiw. You have to actually explore it. This isn't J.K. Rowling land where you can just say "Oh, there's a lot of depth here, it's just not in the story, but it's there!!", that's not gonna cut it here).

I ask because we can go over a list of who our favorite villains are in the series and for what ever reasons we have for liking said villain, "Motive" isn't at the forefront since most of em are just bad dudes who like to flex their muscles because they can. Which isn't a bad thing, because whats most important is how a villain acts around the other characters and not so much why he's after what he/she is after.

Motive isn't all there is to a character. Tenshinhan did have a motive in the 22nd Tenkaichi, to avenge his hero, Tao, but his motive isn't why he's interesting (you can have a great motive and still be a shit character; see Baby), he's interesting because he's a multidimensional character who goes through an emotional journey in the story, and through that journey, we gain insight into who he is, which is what makes him a deep character (again, people who live in J.K. Rowling land will often say "well this character has a lot of depth! you just don't see it in this story!", but again, if that depth isn't explored in the story in question, then it doesn't exist in that story).
Moro has no journey, he's just a bad man doing his bad thing until the goodguys stop him and he dies or something. We see no insight into him beyond "he am bad boy"

[Peach]

I agree with Lord Beerus mostly. Though seriously..

What the hell are the Z fighters supposed to do at this point? Moro is so damn OP that they can barley graze him without the bastard regenerating. He's basically Perfect Cell with magic at this point, how the fuck are they supposed to kill him? Vegeta will get smacked trying to defuse him, Goku isn't going to do much better, hell the only hope Goku has is triggering MUI at the last minute again and that's always a wildcard. The Upper B tier fighters are fucked, they'll just get annihilated trying to fight Moro.

Merus is more than likely a distraction, most likely to buy time for the cast to their HP up to max, but I fail to see how anyone other than Merus or Beerus is doing shit to him. Beerus might as well join the fight at some point, because if Merus is on earth, Beerus is too. And if I have the feeling that Merus serving as a distraction was Whis's idea, this might be a plan to try and give the Z fighters assistance for a final stand.

I feel if Moro is that much of a bitch to kill, Beerus will enter the ring when Merus feels obligated to use his full power at Whis's urged discretion(Merus dying will be on Whis after all and he doesn't want to be taking the brunt of the Grand Priest's wrath).

Maybe if all the Z fighters attack him together? 17, 18, Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Krillin, Yamcha, etc.

I feel like this saga has gone on way too long. Same problem the Zamasu manga saga had, but it's even longer.

[TKA]

I get it. The point is this is supposed to be bleak and their darkest hour. I get it already. But how much longer is this going to keep going? It's been this way for months. For months we've seen that Moro is stronger than everyone and is toying with them, and that everyone is out of their depth with him. Okay. I get it.

This is way too similar to Frieza on Namek. It's the same structure. Overwhelming villain, some hope spots with new heroes joining the battle, only to lose when the villain goes "Haha, I was just holding back."

It's tired. It could've been salvaged if Moro was even the least bit interesting as a character, but he's just there smirking and showing off how strong and invincible he is. He's just Perfect Cell, but without all the cool build up around him, or a foil in Gohan. He's nothing.

This is all nothing. I don't love it, I don't hate it; I'm completely ambivalent/apathetic. That's the worst reaction you could get as a storyteller. Ugh.