"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[AnimeNation101]

Looks like Toriyama will do as much as he was doing so far. He's gonna give some plot details and check Toyo's chapters at the end and correct them.

Seems more to me like Toyo gives the main plot details and Toriyama just judges them. Tells him what to change, what to improve, many how to excute something better. Kinda like Toyo is now Toriyama and Toriyama is Toriyama’s editor back when he was writing Dragon ball.

The more toriyama the better , always . It’s his series .

Ur saying that because its Toriyama’s series, the more Toriyama the better? I dont think those 2 really correlate. Just as many bad things from DB have come from Toriyama as they have from Toei tbh.

Many times Toei comes up with better ideas than Toriyama.

I dont think Toriyama’s involvement guarantees something will be better just because its his series. Thats like saying a creator of a series can’t make bad ideas in his series.

[Chuquita]

With Toyotaro.....I never followed his Toyble stuff because I didn't find it interesting. He has good moments in the Super manga, the moments I like I genuinely enjoy, but the arcs on a whole haven't really usurped the anime version of Super for me. I think with the anime because there's multiple people writing/directing I have that variation in vision so I have higher highs and lower lows where Toyotaro's feels kinda neutral compared to it.

I think without Toriyama advertised as involved (to what exact degree I'm uncertain) I know I'd start to see the Super manga more as official fan manga than an actual continuation where with the anime since I'm used to mostly hands off Toriyama there via the the old stuff I don't think it would deplete as a must see thing for me unless they drastically changed/replaced the main attractions.

Right now I'm tentatively interested in what Toyotaro's plan is because Gokû and Vegeta on adventures in outer space is very much a hook I'll easily take. I like that idea. I'm not jazzed about serious face horse goat man because he doesn't seem very Toriyama, but I'm giving this arc a chance; it hasn't done anything that would make me turn away yet, so.

[prince212]

The more toriyama the better , always . It’s his series .

Ur saying that because its Toriyama’s series, the more Toriyama the better? I dont think those 2 really correlate. Just as many bad things from DB have come from Toriyama as they have from Toei tbh.

Many times Toei comes up with better ideas than Toriyama.

I dont think Toriyama’s involvement guarantees something will be better just because its his series. Thats like saying a creator of a series can’t make bad ideas in his series.

For me a captain has to stay on the ship no matter if he lost his mind and they’re sinking, (not the case I.m.o) .
Of course somebody else can come with better ideas , including you or any other fans , writers ,Toei team , whatever ..
But again , for me , the magic of keeping a touch , a role , just an approval nod of the creator of the series , is a plus for the series , I’m a romantic, but I understand your point . I can’t see those better ideas from Toei that you said though

[Mister_Popo]

Toriyama does not need to prove anything anymore. As long as he lives and he has the intellectual rights, he can give feedback, ideas or write new scripts.
Definitely for the story lines that are considered as a sequel to his original manga (canon), it's nothing but normal he supervises those as long as he pleases.
He is basically more of a guide / advisor at this point than a leadwriter.
It's sometimes pretty vague what he does. He is probably most involved in the movies, but still all the excecution, battle scenes etc is being doing by Shintani and Nagamine.
Toriyama is a manga artist, he should only be judged for his work concerning the manga he has made (and i use the word 'made', not written) and to an extend the direct adaptations of those manga.
Same counts for Toyotaro, he should be able to write his own stories concerning DB Super by now, only to receive a final approval from Toriyama before print. He has enough experience to do so. The anime is a different story.

[SaiyanGod117]

Looks like Toriyama will do as much as he was doing so far. He's gonna give some plot details and check Toyo's chapters at the end and correct them.

Seems more to me like Toyo gives the main plot details and Toriyama just judges them. Tells him what to change, what to improve, many how to excute something better. Kinda like Toyo is now Toriyama and Toriyama is Toriyama’s editor back when he was writing Dragon ball.

The more toriyama the better , always . It’s his series .

Ur saying that because its Toriyama’s series, the more Toriyama the better? I dont think those 2 really correlate. Just as many bad things from DB have come from Toriyama as they have from Toei tbh.

Many times Toei comes up with better ideas than Toriyama.

I dont think Toriyama’s involvement guarantees something will be better just because its his series. Thats like saying a creator of a series can’t make bad ideas in his series.

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots, because as we've seen prior Toei can come up such unique ideas-i.e., Shadow Dragons, Janemaba, the whole movie plot for Wrath of Dragons, Tree of Might and various others but falter on execution.

[AnimeNation101]

Looks like Toriyama will do as much as he was doing so far. He's gonna give some plot details and check Toyo's chapters at the end and correct them.

Seems more to me like Toyo gives the main plot details and Toriyama just judges them. Tells him what to change, what to improve, many how to excute something better. Kinda like Toyo is now Toriyama and Toriyama is Toriyama’s editor back when he was writing Dragon ball.

The more toriyama the better , always . It’s his series .

Ur saying that because its Toriyama’s series, the more Toriyama the better? I dont think those 2 really correlate. Just as many bad things from DB have come from Toriyama as they have from Toei tbh.

Many times Toei comes up with better ideas than Toriyama.

I dont think Toriyama’s involvement guarantees something will be better just because its his series. Thats like saying a creator of a series can’t make bad ideas in his series.

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots, because as we've seen prior Toei can come up such unique ideas-i.e., Shadow Dragons, Janemaba, the whole movie plot for Wrath of Dragons, Tree of Might and various others but falter on execution.

Thats actually a pretty good idea on paper.

[prince212]

Toei is not a person , is an animation company that usually had his best hits being manga adaptations.
If you say , have a single writer that work and provide Toei good material .. that’s ok .
Multiple writers were proved to be a failure regarding coherence of small details episode after episode .
So , you can’t put Toei as the captain, Toei is part of the crew . A captain is needed .

[batistabus]

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots

That has been the production process for Super since Battle of Gods. The whole idea for that film was in place before Toriyama rewrote the entire thing, but he wholesale utilized their ideas of a God of Destruction and Super Saiyan God. The return of Trunks, Broly, and many elements of the ToP were ideas presented by Toei. There are interviews of Toei staff describing this process of pitching ideas to Toriyama until he finds one that he wants to work with.

[Mister_Popo]

Toei is not a person , is an animation company that usually had his best hits being manga adaptations.
If you say , have a single writer that work and provide Toei good material .. that’s ok .
Multiple writers were proved to be a failure regarding coherence of small details episode after episode .
So , you can’t put Toei as the captain, Toei is part of the crew . A captain is needed .

You are exactly right here.

The strongest point of TOEI IS the excecution: depicting things epically, creating a good atmosphere, animation ...
Of course they have good ideas.
But a plot should derive from a collaboration DB Room / Toriyama / TOEI, so afterwards TOEI should only worry about excecuting what the plot is.

They can write individual episodes as they are trained to do with filler for other animes and movies.
Entire arcs for an anime though is a different ballgame.
The moments when they had to do everything alone, the story wasn't really good but the animation neither.
They had a difficult time in the beginning of Super, but they have now "refound" what they are good at. I should leave that.
They should get more input before the excecution begins from within their ranks, as other contributors like Toriyama, Toyotaro, new freelance writers ...
What they need for that is TIME, i hope they use their extra time useful in preparation till the anime starts again.

[TKA]

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots, because as we've seen prior Toei can come up such unique ideas-i.e., Shadow Dragons, Janemaba, the whole movie plot for Wrath of Dragons, Tree of Might and various others but falter on execution.

It's kind of hilarious (but also sad) that you're saying this on a site like Kanzenshuu, where there's so much evidence in the translations section explaining what the process is.

Toei puts out a plot idea, and then Toriyama works his magic on it. Toei asked for Future Trunks to come back, so Toriyama created an arc that justified that. Toei saw Broly was popular, so Toriyama justified his existence and made him make sense.

I'd be more interested in Toriyama-original arcs with absolutely no input from Toei going forward, tbh. This is an okay alternative, however. That is, Toyotaro coming up with an arc and having Toriyama editing it and making changes where necessary. At the very least, it's a nice change of pace.

[AnimeNation101]

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots, because as we've seen prior Toei can come up such unique ideas-i.e., Shadow Dragons, Janemaba, the whole movie plot for Wrath of Dragons, Tree of Might and various others but falter on execution.

It's kind of hilarious (but also sad) that you're saying this on a site like Kanzenshuu, where there's so much evidence in the translations section explaining what the process is.

Toei puts out a plot idea, and then Toriyama works his magic on it. Toei asked for Future Trunks to come back, so Toriyama created an arc that justified that. Toei saw Broly was popular, so Toriyama justified his existence and made him make sense.

I'd be more interested in Toriyama-original arcs with absolutely no input from Toei going forward, tbh. This is an okay alternative, however. That is, Toyotaro coming up with an arc and having Toriyama editing it and making changes where necessary. At the very least, it's a nice change of pace.

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots

That has been the production process for Super since Battle of Gods. The whole idea for that film was in place before Toriyama rewrote the entire thing, but he wholesale utilized their ideas of a God of Destruction and Super Saiyan God. The return of Trunks, Broly, and many elements of the ToP were ideas presented by Toei. There are interviews of Toei staff describing this process of pitching ideas to Toriyama until he finds one that he wants to work with.

I thought of this too put it seems like he’s explaining something different

Right now, Toei gives Toriyama an idea but not really a main story with main plot points. And what Toriyama does is take the concept and either expand upon it by creating a whole plot or by rewriting the whole concept into something else and making a plot of that.

SaiyanGod is saying that Toei should create the concept and plot for and then give it to Toriyama for him to expand upon by doing stuff like, for example, creating main events in the plot (and not rewriting they whole concept and plot givin to him like he did with B.o.G).

[PFM18]

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots, because as we've seen prior Toei can come up such unique ideas-i.e., Shadow Dragons, Janemaba, the whole movie plot for Wrath of Dragons, Tree of Might and various others but falter on execution.

It's kind of hilarious (but also sad) that you're saying this on a site like Kanzenshuu, where there's so much evidence in the translations section explaining what the process is.

Toei puts out a plot idea, and then Toriyama works his magic on it. Toei asked for Future Trunks to come back, so Toriyama created an arc that justified that. Toei saw Broly was popular, so Toriyama justified his existence and made him make sense.

I'd be more interested in Toriyama-original arcs with absolutely no input from Toei going forward, tbh. This is an okay alternative, however. That is, Toyotaro coming up with an arc and having Toriyama editing it and making changes where necessary. At the very least, it's a nice change of pace.

Did you even read what he said? You don't address or even acknowledge anything he said. You explain the creative process as if he had claimed anything about how the creative process is handled right now, when he was just saying what he would prefer.

[Mister_Popo]

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots, because as we've seen prior Toei can come up such unique ideas-i.e., Shadow Dragons, Janemaba, the whole movie plot for Wrath of Dragons, Tree of Might and various others but falter on execution.

It's kind of hilarious (but also sad) that you're saying this on a site like Kanzenshuu, where there's so much evidence in the translations section explaining what the process is.

Toei puts out a plot idea, and then Toriyama works his magic on it. Toei asked for Future Trunks to come back, so Toriyama created an arc that justified that. Toei saw Broly was popular, so Toriyama justified his existence and made him make sense.

I'd be more interested in Toriyama-original arcs with absolutely no input from Toei going forward, tbh. This is an okay alternative, however. That is, Toyotaro coming up with an arc and having Toriyama editing it and making changes where necessary. At the very least, it's a nice change of pace.

I think Toei should come up with the ideas and Toriyama should flesh out the plots

That has been the production process for Super since Battle of Gods. The whole idea for that film was in place before Toriyama rewrote the entire thing, but he wholesale utilized their ideas of a God of Destruction and Super Saiyan God. The return of Trunks, Broly, and many elements of the ToP were ideas presented by Toei. There are interviews of Toei staff describing this process of pitching ideas to Toriyama until he finds one that he wants to work with.

I thought of this too put it seems like he’s explaining something different

Right now, Toei gives Toriyama an idea but not really a main story with main plot points. And what Toriyama does is take the concept and either expand upon it by creating a whole plot or by rewriting the whole concept into something else and making a plot of that.

SaiyanGod is saying that Toei should create the concept and plot for and then give it to Toriyama for him to expand upon by doing stuff like, for example, creating main events in the plot (and not rewriting they whole concept and plot givin to him like he did with B.o.G).

1. An idea or general plot should arise within a DB Room. Everyone within the franchise can launch new ideas, but the marketeers have an important role to play. They (TOEI, Bandai ...) as well as the intellectual stakeholders (Toriyama, Shueisha ...) have to validate the idea for its execution.

2. If there is concent within this "DB Room": one or two writers max should be appointed to write a pretty detailed synopsis of a complete arc, while leaving some artistic freedom for TOEI to execute the plot. This could be done by Toriyama, but another writer who has a feel for the 'Dragonworld' could be appointed to do the task as well.

3. The complete story goes back to Toriyama, who does final editing and gives his concent.

4. TOEI executes the arc.

[SaiyanGod117]

SaiyanGod is saying that Toei should create the concept and plot for and then give it to Toriyama for him to expand upon by doing stuff like, for example, creating main events in the plot (and not rewriting they whole concept and plot givin to him like he did with B.o.G).

Exactly, I don't know what was in his morning coffee but he sure jumped the gun with all those assumptions.

[Mister_Popo]

He isn't completely wrong either in the sense TOEI and Bandai have marketeers that have their role to play. They can create and validate ideas, but they don't actually have to write complete arcs by their own. That's not their strongest asset.

[Miracles]

Toyotaro's commentary on the new arc:
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1068740797263036416

As long as Toriyama is overseeing Toyotaro like usual it's fine.
Both TOEI and Toyotaro need a bedrock to start from.

Toyotaro did say the manga would be ahead of the anime. I have no doubt that the anime will do this Galatic Patrol arc as well.
Which continues right after the Broly saga.

[SaiyanGod117]

He isn't completely wrong either in the sense TOEI and Bandai have marketeers that have their role to play. They can provide and validate ideas, but they don't actually have to write all arcs.

Well he completely misunderstood what I said, because I didn't say anything about Toei writing nada.

[Mister_Popo]

He isn't completely wrong either in the sense TOEI and Bandai have marketeers that have their role to play. They can provide and validate ideas, but they don't actually have to write all arcs.

Well he completely misunderstood what I said, because I didn't say anything about Toei writing nada.

In a sense you were both right about TOEI having a marketing departement to think along, but there was a small miscommunication. The more heads who can think about an idea the better, brainstorming about ideas is a different step in the process than the actual writing and execution.
The ideas that marketeers of big franchises tend to launch, are not necessary always the better, but that's another discussion.

[TKA]

You explain the creative process as if he had claimed anything about how the creative process is handled right now, when he was just saying what he would prefer.

Yes, I read what he said.

I then explained that what he prefers is exactly what we've been given.

What you don't seem to understand is he raised this as a counterargument to someone suggesting that we need more Toriyama given that he was the originator of this franchise.

Calm yourself.

When Dragonball doesn't have Toriyama, we get shitty ideas like:

1. What if 17 came back and fused with 17 and now he's super 17 and all the old villains are back!?
2. What if the dragonballs were bad?!?!?!?!?!
3. WHAT IF TUFFLES?!

Now let's look at why those suck.

1. Obviously because it's a retread. In addition, it thrusts into the lead villain role a character that didn't have much to him in his debut and didn't bother expanding upon what little there was. When 17 and Frieza were brought back with Toriyama's guidance in Super, they were given more to their characters and had downplayed roles.

2. The "shadow dragons" are bad because the idea of the dragonballs, the saviors of our heroes, turning out to be bad is... inherently awful. The dragonballs were always used in-series to solve problems that couldn't otherwise be fixed. There is no lesson to be learned from the dragonballs being evil because the heroes used them for good. This was conceptually flawed. There are several ways to "fix" this, but none I want to get into; I'm against that kind of thing.

3. The "tuffles" face the same problem 17 does, but to a worse degree. They had absolutely no importance placed upon them through the entirety of the original series. One could be forgiven for not even remembering who they were. It's essentially as superfluous as a Disney Star Wars movie (more specifically, Rogue One or Solo): a story made from an innocuous detail and doesn't need to be told.

So yes, more Toriyama is more better.

[SaiyanGod117]

Yes, I read what he said.

An completely misinterpreted it.

I then explained that what he prefers is exactly what we've been given.

So Toriyama gave ideas for all thirteen DBZ movies as well as wrote them? From my understanding the only original story concepts Toriyama made and wrote were the original 42 volumes of the manga, DBZ movies BOG and ROF, and DBS arcs Uni 6 and Universe survival. For the latter two he didn't even really write them, he just made a story outline and the Toei writers did the rest.

What you don't seem to understand is he raised this as a counterargument to someone suggesting that we need more Toriyama given that he was the originator of this franchise.

What I do understand is you must of been looking for one because all I did was just agree with AnimeNation101's opinion and gave feedback on it, as PFM18 stated "he was just saying what he would prefer."