"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[reecehoward]

I agree that going for more power was a logical move on Goku's part, it's not like he was being outskilled by Jiren, what he needed really was pure power. Also, had a good laugh at Roshi acting like he was some kind of combat genius.

THANK YOU!!!! Somebody gets it! Nothing in this chapter convinces me that Goku needs anything BUT power. Like if Toyo wanted to sell the whole "technique>power" he should have had Goku not be in a situation that calls for power more than anything. Or had it to where the only reason Jiren was beating Goku is due to superior technique overall, with Goku getting frustrated(which is STILL kind of out of chatacter) to the point where he tries to power through that gap in skill.

[PsionicWarrior]

Dang I posted my huge rant on the last post from previous page now who's gonna read it lol

[reecehoward]

Dang I posted my huge rant on the last post from previous page now who's gonna read it lol

I read it and I agree 100%. I mean people try to minimize the issue with chapter and try to make it specifically about power scaling issues. That's really a small part of the negative. The most jarring thing is that this chapter is completely retconning the entire series just to prove a point that gets undone the moment Jiren beats Roshi's technique with raw power and speed. The fact that people are pretending to not see this is quite baffling to me. For all of what Toyo was going for, he completely throws it away in a couple of panels. So he off screened Gohan vs Kefla to build up to Roshi's mentor moment, only for it to not to really hold any value in context, THEN has Goku use UI omen to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! WTF?! I had to reread the chapter just to make sure that this is what I actually read the first time.lol

[BlueBasilisk]

I know Roshi didn't, and Roshi know he didn't. The problem with it is that no one knows what UI truly does in u7 except for Whis and Beerus. So Roshi saying Goku only focuses on power, when the situation Goku is in actually requires power more than anything, makes no sense because Jiren isn't even using any type of discernible technique and is LETTING Goku hit him. That's my issue with it all. This entire scene loses it's point the moment Jiren decides he has enough of Roshi. It's still power>technique.

Other than that, I'm glad you can at least see where I'm coming from with this.

This is my big hang-up (beyond the Goku forgetting stuff business). Technique means jack shit if you lack the strength to actually hit through your opponent's defenses. Neither Goku nor Roshi could do anything to him and Jiren easily dispatches Roshi when he feels like it with superior power. Roshi asked if Goku learned that mindset from Frieza and yeah, he kinda did because that situation mirrors this one.

That's why I feel like it's dishonest to try this angle so late in the game. You can get away with that in a tournament since you have other avenues to victory than straight defeat, and Goku even came close to defeating Jiren in the anime by outwitting him and using a trap. But in the kind of situations they normally face that alternative isn't available. Goku tried all kinds of shit on Beerus but Beerus was so strong that none of it matters. And if Ultra Instinct makes Goku strong enough to hurt Jiren then it's still a power up and if anything validates Goku's line of thinking if not his method. It's like the whole Ultimate Gohan thing. Even if you don't call it a transformation it still functions like one. Nothing changes.

[prince212]

I agree that going for more power was a logical move on Goku's part, it's not like he was being outskilled by Jiren, what he needed really was pure power. Also, had a good laugh at Roshi acting like he was some kind of combat genius.

THANK YOU!!!! Somebody gets it! Nothing in this chapter convinces me that Goku needs anything BUT power. Like if Toyo wanted to sell the whole "technique>power" he should have had Goku not be in a situation that calls for power more than anything. Or had it to where the only reason Jiren was beating Goku is due to superior technique overall, with Goku getting frustrated(which is STILL kind of out of chatacter) to the point where he tries to power through that gap in skill.

Of course more power is needed , but technique is important and sometimes can solve the gap .
Imagine old times before the wheel invention, dragging heavy materials , I bet some people were saying “ we need more people-power to drag this” , that doesn’t mean that after the wheel invention we don’t need power and the more the better.
So technique without power is nothing ( look at roshi ) , and power with technique can equal a bigger power . That’s what I think they’re trying to sell.

[reecehoward]

I know Roshi didn't, and Roshi know he didn't. The problem with it is that no one knows what UI truly does in u7 except for Whis and Beerus. So Roshi saying Goku only focuses on power, when the situation Goku is in actually requires power more than anything, makes no sense because Jiren isn't even using any type of discernible technique and is LETTING Goku hit him. That's my issue with it all. This entire scene loses it's point the moment Jiren decides he has enough of Roshi. It's still power>technique.

Other than that, I'm glad you can at least see where I'm coming from with this.

This is my big hang-up (beyond the Goku forgetting stuff business). Technique means jack shit if you lack the strength to actually hit through your opponent's defenses. Neither Goku nor Roshi could do anything to him and Jiren easily dispatches Roshi when he feels like it with superior power. Roshi asked if Goku learned that mindset from Frieza and yeah, he kinda did because that situation mirrors this one.

That's why I feel like it's dishonest to try this angle so late in the game. You can get away with that in a tournament since you have other avenues to victory than straight defeat, and Goku even came close to defeating Jiren in the anime by outwitting him and using a trap. But in the kind of situations they normally face that alternative isn't available. Goku tried all kinds of shit on Beerus but Beerus was so strong that none of it matters. And if Ultra Instinct makes Goku strong enough to hurt Jiren then it's still a power up and if anything validates Goku's line of thinking if not his method. It's like the whole Ultimate Gohan thing. Even if you don't call it a transformation it still functions like one. Nothing changes.

Exactly. That's one thing that confused fans was that the manga treated Ultimate as if Gohan was always in that form, when even in Z he powered up into it. Just Toyo showing that, a callback that actually IS warranted, would have let fans know that he was indeed utilizing that power. We know that he was unable to do that in RoF, so as you said, it still functions as a form for that very reason alone.

Another thing I want to address is the term "technique" the anime/manga are throwing around improperly. Technique is just the way one uses their fists, kicks, movement, weapons, and all other abilities that apply to combat. I find it EXTREMELY disingenuous or maybe just ignorant of many fans of any anime to think that even a solid right hook ISN'T a technique. It is! It doesn't have to be an overly convulted move for it to be a skill/technique, which I kinda blame Naruto's writing for shifting this paradigm in modern shonen to where every technique is some overly complex move that does the same shit as what is seen in other shonen. This has caused a narrative to emerge in the modern anime/manga followers that there is no technique to how Dragon ball characters fight. I call absolute bullshit to that. Two of the most popular fights in Dragonball Z were mostly straight up h2h in Ssj Goku vs 100% Frieza AND Ssj Goku vs Perfect Cell. Please rewatch those fights for anyone that believes Goku is an unskilled martial artist who relys ONLY on power! This dude is a genius in creating openings for his attacks. Goku and co have all the technique in the world. Which is why I hate how Toyo tried to pull that Goku relying on raw power too much out of his ass. If that was the case
Goku would be flinging Kamehameha's nonstop rather than creating openings for it.(You can even see this on display in his BoG movie fight with Beerus.)

[reecehoward]

I agree that going for more power was a logical move on Goku's part, it's not like he was being outskilled by Jiren, what he needed really was pure power. Also, had a good laugh at Roshi acting like he was some kind of combat genius.

THANK YOU!!!! Somebody gets it! Nothing in this chapter convinces me that Goku needs anything BUT power. Like if Toyo wanted to sell the whole "technique>power" he should have had Goku not be in a situation that calls for power more than anything. Or had it to where the only reason Jiren was beating Goku is due to superior technique overall, with Goku getting frustrated(which is STILL kind of out of chatacter) to the point where he tries to power through that gap in skill.

Of course more power is needed , but technique is important and sometimes can solve the gap .
Imagine old times before the wheel invention, dragging heavy materials , I bet some people were saying “ we need more people-power to drag this” , that doesn’t mean that after the wheel invention we don’t need power and the more the better.
So technique without power is nothing ( look at roshi ) , and power with technique can equal a bigger power . That’s what I think they’re trying to sell.

Key word is TRY. It doesn't work in this narrative because Goku IS already showing more skill than Jiren, but he can't hurt him. How the hell is instinctual movement going to help him when that isn't even the issue he is currently having with Jiren.

[TKA]

THANK YOU!!!! Somebody gets it! Nothing in this chapter convinces me that Goku needs anything BUT power.

Are you sure you've actually read the chapter? Or any previous chapter? Or any previous post replying to you?

Because what's happening here isn't the manga going "YOU DON'T NEED MORE POWER, GOKU." That's the opposite of what's happening. Goku needs more power, but the way he'll get it does not lie in forcing out higher numbers. Ultra Instinct isn't about getting a new engine with more horse power; it's about optimizing the engine you have to get more out of it.

Goku is as strong as he needs to be. All he needs is to tap into ultra instinct and then he'll be able to optimize the power he already has.

Do you understand it in those terms? He doesn't need more power to tap into Ultra Instinct, but getting Ultra Instinct will give him more power. That's the relationship here.

[batistabus]

Imagine old times before the wheel invention, dragging heavy materials , I bet some people were saying “ we need more people-power to drag this” , that doesn’t mean that after the wheel invention we don’t need power and the more the better.

This is an excellent analogy. Nice.

[reecehoward]

THANK YOU!!!! Somebody gets it! Nothing in this chapter convinces me that Goku needs anything BUT power.

Are you sure you've actually read the chapter? Or any previous chapter? Or any previous post replying to you?

Because what's happening here isn't the manga going "YOU DON'T NEED MORE POWER, GOKU." That's the opposite of what's happening. Goku needs more power, but the way he'll get it does not lie in forcing out higher numbers. Ultra Instinct isn't about getting a new engine with more horse power; it's about optimizing the engine you have to get more out of it.

Goku is as strong as he needs to be. All he needs is to tap into ultra instinct and then he'll be able to optimize the power he already has.

Do you understand it in those terms? He doesn't need more power to tap into Ultra Instinct, but getting Ultra Instinct will give him more power. That's the relationship here.

Ok, so where in the manga does it imply that UI will give Goku a power boost?! There's not a single line of dialog that suggests such. Furthermore, everyone who's disagreeing with me say the exact same thing in attempts to refute people's issue with this chapter:Technique>Power. No one before your comment, and even the manga itself, alluded to UI being the path to more physical power. Roshi specifically berated him for focusing on such and proceeds to go dodging Jiren to prove a point. So tell me what is the point of this scene if: 1. Roshi didn't get a powerboost(supposedly) and isn't even using UI. 2.Jiren just relied on raw power and speed to nullify Roshi's technique. 3. Goku's not having any issues with his actual fighting techniques through what is actually shown in tgis very chapter. 4.There's not a single line in the entire manga that points to UI granting a power up.

Even IF what you say about it maximizing his power makes sense, it's not said or hinted at all.

[TKA]

Ok, so where in the manga does it imply that UI will give Goku a power boost?!

Roshi being able to dodge all of Jiren's moves.

Beerus being able to take out multiple Gods of Destruction at the same time.

Whis explaining that ultra instinct will make you better.

All the quotes from Goku's previous masters about how you'll be a better fighter.

Or did you do that thing where you didn't actually read my post?

Goku is as strong as he needs to be. All he needs is to tap into ultra instinct and then he'll be able to optimize the power he already has.

Goku needs more power, but the way he'll get it does not lie in forcing out higher numbers. Ultra Instinct isn't about getting a new engine with more horse power; it's about optimizing the engine you have to get more out of it.

Or are you thinking in terms of "numbers go up" when I say "power boost"? You shouldn't since I explained that's not what I'm talking about.

[Marlowe89]

And if Ultra Instinct makes Goku strong enough to hurt Jiren then it's still a power up and if anything validates Goku's line of thinking if not his method.

Right, but the bolded is the clincher, isn't it? Goku thought he could overcome his limits by just powering up; in actuality, the key is efficient, instinctual movement. Thus, Goku's method of obtaining it was wholly misguided.

I don't know if all the confusion comes from Goku achieving this technique/form in completely different ways between the anime and manga, but the latter's approach certainly jives more with what Whis was trying to instruct Goku and Vegeta to focus on since their initial training.

[Sora Saiyan]

Ok, so where in the manga does it imply that UI will give Goku a power boost?!

Roshi being able to dodge all of Jiren's moves.

Beerus being able to take out multiple Gods of Destruction at the same time.

Whis explaining that ultra instinct will make you better.

All the quotes from Goku's previous masters about how you'll be a better fighter.

Or did you do that thing where you didn't actually read my post?

Goku is as strong as he needs to be. All he needs is to tap into ultra instinct and then he'll be able to optimize the power he already has.

Goku needs more power, but the way he'll get it does not lie in forcing out higher numbers. Ultra Instinct isn't about getting a new engine with more horse power; it's about optimizing the engine you have to get more out of it.

Or are you thinking in terms of "numbers go up" when I say "power boost"? You shouldn't since I explained that's not what I'm talking about.

There’s this, and also what DBS has established throughout its run about how weak somebody can be when they’re caught off guard. With how UIO Goku moves he could logically catch somebody off guard, and when it’s completed he would definitely be able to seize that opportunity.

[reecehoward]

Ok, so where in the manga does it imply that UI will give Goku a power boost?!

Roshi being able to dodge all of Jiren's moves.

Beerus being able to take out multiple Gods of Destruction at the same time.

Whis explaining that ultra instinct will make you better.

All the quotes from Goku's previous masters about how you'll be a better fighter.

Or did you do that thing where you didn't actually read my post?

Goku is as strong as he needs to be. All he needs is to tap into ultra instinct and then he'll be able to optimize the power he already has.

Goku needs more power, but the way he'll get it does not lie in forcing out higher numbers. Ultra Instinct isn't about getting a new engine with more horse power; it's about optimizing the engine you have to get more out of it.

Or are you thinking in terms of "numbers go up" when I say "power boost"? You shouldn't since I explained that's not what I'm talking about.

Cut it with the intellectual dishonesty dude. There's nothing implying that in-story and you're feeding me headcanon. Whis only ever described UI as being able to evade any foe. Never once did he say that it was the maximum utilization of one's power. Even if that WAS the case, no one aside from Belmod and his angel know how truly strong Jiren is, let alone how good a fighter he might actually be. Telling Goku to go the route of UI is no better than Goku getting a powerup in his own way, which IS the problem with the entire exchange between Goku and Roshi. He literally berates him for searching for "plain old fighting strength". THAT'S it?! Even when he thinks back to all of his masters' teaching, it's all about his movement. How in the world does any of that translate into fully utilizing the power he already has? Then what was the point of Completed Ssb?

[reecehoward]

Ok, so where in the manga does it imply that UI will give Goku a power boost?!

Roshi being able to dodge all of Jiren's moves.

Beerus being able to take out multiple Gods of Destruction at the same time.

Whis explaining that ultra instinct will make you better.

All the quotes from Goku's previous masters about how you'll be a better fighter.

Or did you do that thing where you didn't actually read my post?

Goku is as strong as he needs to be. All he needs is to tap into ultra instinct and then he'll be able to optimize the power he already has.

Goku needs more power, but the way he'll get it does not lie in forcing out higher numbers. Ultra Instinct isn't about getting a new engine with more horse power; it's about optimizing the engine you have to get more out of it.

Or are you thinking in terms of "numbers go up" when I say "power boost"? You shouldn't since I explained that's not what I'm talking about.

There’s this, and also what DBS has established throughout its run about how weak somebody can be when they’re caught off guard. With how UIO Goku moves he could logically catch somebody off guard, and when it’s completed he would definitely be able to seize that opportunity.

Only when they let their power down, not when they are actually fighting. There's no instance of this in the entire Dragonball series.

[TheUltimateNinja]

And if Ultra Instinct makes Goku strong enough to hurt Jiren then it's still a power up and if anything validates Goku's line of thinking if not his method.

Right, but the bolded is the clincher, isn't it? Goku thought he could overcome his limits by just powering up; in actuality, the key is efficient, instinctual movement. Thus, Goku's method of obtaining it was wholly misguided.

I don't know if all the confusion comes from Goku achieving this technique/form in completely different ways between the anime and manga, but the latter's approach certainly jives more with what Whis was trying to instruct Goku and Vegeta to focus on since their initial training.

Goku wasn't even wrong, though. Grade 2, however inefficient it might have been, allowed Vegeta to pummel Cell effortlessly, and Kaioken was always useful despite being inefficient and extremely short. If Goku managed to use Kaioken or buff up or something Jiren would have been finished right there. Can't fault him for trying what's always worked in desperate situations, his only problem was he didn't manage to raise his power high enough.

[reecehoward]

And if Ultra Instinct makes Goku strong enough to hurt Jiren then it's still a power up and if anything validates Goku's line of thinking if not his method.

Right, but the bolded is the clincher, isn't it? Goku thought he could overcome his limits by just powering up; in actuality, the key is efficient, instinctual movement. Thus, Goku's method of obtaining it was wholly misguided.

I don't know if all the confusion comes from Goku achieving this technique/form in completely different ways between the anime and manga, but the latter's approach certainly jives more with what Whis was trying to instruct Goku and Vegeta to focus on since their initial training.

Goku wasn't even wrong, though. Grade 2, however inefficient it might have been, allowed Vegeta to pummel Cell effortlessly, and Kaioken was always useful despite being inefficient and extremely short. If Goku managed to use Kaioken or buff up or something Jiren would have been finished right there. Can't fault him for trying what's always worked in desperate situations, his only problem was he didn't manage to raise his power high enough.

This. And there was no hint that UI would raise his battle power. I've read the chapter several times and all Roshi does is berate him for looking to increase his fighting strength. Roshi said nothing of his method, nor did anyone else. Hell, look at Gohan! This dude IS actually raising his power just from a few seconds of fighting with Kefla, all the while renouncing his Saiyan genes.lol He should've been the one to fight Jiren.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Speaking of Gohan, I can't believe he has the nerve to renounce his Saiyan side when it's the only reason he's even somewhat relevant. If he were born human he'd be a joke like Tenshinhan.

[reecehoward]

Speaking of Gohan, I can't believe he has the nerve to renounce his Saiyan side when it's the only reason he's even somewhat relevant. If he were born human he'd be a joke like Tenshinhan.

Right.lol But seriously, this is in the exact same chapter as Master Roshi berating Goku for wanting and needing to increase his fighting power.lol Gohan is just over there raising his like nothing.lmao I'm sorry, but none of this chapter makes a lick of sense.

[DragonBallFoodie]

https://animemojo.com/dragon_ball/drago ... line-a4830

What on earth... Gohan never really had any issues with being of two worlds before. This came out of nowhere.

If he were born human he'd be a joke like Tenshinhan.

Tien is not a joke. Neither is Krillin, or Master Roshi, or even Yamcha. Maybe Yajirobe.