"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

I'm inclined to agree with Thani, Beerus might not even have Sign based on his reaction.

Beerus is one of those furless cats if I'm not mistaken, so I'm not sure how his body would express UI. If Morus73 had gotten silver eyes, then that would've been it, but his eyes remained dark red, the silver eyes thing is inconsistent since last chapter. Perhaps his body language? his look?

[Mister_Popo]

Yes, but if it's not a Saiyan thing, why does Goku does change slightly when he is 'a state of UI before MUI' (Omen) when Beerus is able to achieve a comparable state as well, but does not change at all?

You're right that that is an inconsistency. For now I am interpreting it as UI sign = someone who is right on the cusp of accessing the mastered UI form, and Beerus wasn't yet on that level.

Actually, I'd argue that Beerus' doesn't really have that level of UI. When Goku showcased Sign for the first time in the Tournament of Power, Beerus had this to say:



Which is as straightforward as it gets, and it doesn't contradicts what Whis said: Beerus haven't mastered UI yet, in the sense that he haven't been able to pull it off beyond the bare minimum, and Sign is beyond that.

Beerus' reaction does not prove anything conclusively.
It's in character for him to react that way, but it does not say anything about his true power, as we have seen before.
In the anime (other continuity but same character) Beerus seemed to be mightly impressed by Gokus Kaioken times 10, while we all know by now how much above that level he truely is.

It makes the most sense to me Beerus hasn't fully mastered UI, but during TOP it's not unreasonable to assume he was still more in advance to Goku in terms of using the ability at will (a state comparable to 'mastered UI Omen' during Moro arc). I do believe it's acceptable to consider he did use some level of UI during his match with the other Gods, as in order to dodge so many godly opponents the Roshi-variant probably wouldn't suffice.

[ankokudaishogun]

yeah, Beerus during the ToP time-frame probably could use Omen at will(like Moro Arc Omen), but couldn't sustain it for long( Goku's Omen in ToP)

for Kaiohken in the anime, I'd say he was more shocked by the fast improvement rate of Goku than by the actual power.
See how both him and Champa were threatening Goku and Hit at the end, like they were nothing.

it fits with Beerus going "serious" for an instant on Vegeta Complete Blue in the manga:
they both mark the "fuck, those guys are ACTUALLY getting stronger!" realization for Beerus

[TKA]

It's very clear from just reading this chapter that Toyotaro has done a lot of work plotting how this fight will go and has laid the seeds for all of this since the start of the arc. Heck, a lot of it is built on concepts and premises he's introduced since the start of the Super manga (like needing to train your body before you can actually use ultra instinct efficiently, even before the technique had an official name).

I commend him on that.

It's all still completely uninteresting, repetitive and rote. One thing that was particularly so was Goku saying Moro is the strongest guy he's ever fought. Jiren beat Ultra Instinct in the manga. But even ignoring that plot detail, why do we need Moro to be the strongest foe ever? The arc doesn't need that and it adds nothing to the story of worth. It's just there because "that's what Dragonball does, I guess".

Please end this already.

[DiscountDabi]

It off topic, but given we are getting more color chapters, is there anyway to read them online or do you have to buy them physically

[Zelvin]

Heck, a lot of it is built on concepts and premises he's introduced since the start of the Super manga (like needing to train your body before you can actually use ultra instinct efficiently, even before the technique had an official name).

Goku had to do the same thing to use Kaioken. I'm not going to keep going deep into all this. It's been pointed out countless times how much Toyo has stolen ideas from every other arc/saga in the series and from other shows/manga. Even so far as copying imagery from the games. I'm sure everyone recalls the crater formed when Merus-Moro clashed with PUI Goku.

Pretty much the same imagery.

[Psajdak]

I have a feeling this will really be solved with fusion after all, most likely Vegetto this time...

Moro probably won't fight the way he currently is, but rather have a separate normal body serving as his avatar, while his Earth self will serve as a mind, and a source of power, similar to how Coola was with Big Gete Star.

[theherodjl]

I have a feeling this will really be solved with fusion after all, most likely Vegetto this time...

Moro probably won't fight the way he currently is, but rather have a separate normal body serving as his avatar, while his Earth self will serve as a mind, and a source of power, similar to how Coola was with Big Gete Star.

They really should've used fusion before. Goku & Vegeta have spent this whole arc trying to win as their individual selves and look how that has turned out: all of the usual mistakes that a Goku and a Vegeta can make....have been made. As Vegetto or Gogeta, they are much more pragmatic due to their combined intelligence and the time limit that they have to work with. Moro would've been toast long ago if Goku & Vegeta would stop thinking with their Saiyan instincts.

[Matches Malone]

I have a feeling this will really be solved with fusion after all, most likely Vegetto this time...

This will be the absolute worst outcome. Fusion played a major role in the last 3 stories, we don't need to see it a 4th time.

[JewyB]

It's very clear from just reading this chapter that Toyotaro has done a lot of work plotting how this fight will go and has laid the seeds for all of this since the start of the arc. Heck, a lot of it is built on concepts and premises he's introduced since the start of the Super manga (like needing to train your body before you can actually use ultra instinct efficiently, even before the technique had an official name).

I commend him on that.

It's all still completely uninteresting, repetitive and rote. One thing that was particularly so was Goku saying Moro is the strongest guy he's ever fought. Jiren beat Ultra Instinct in the manga. But even ignoring that plot detail, why do we need Moro to be the strongest foe ever? The arc doesn't need that and it adds nothing to the story of worth. It's just there because "that's what Dragonball does, I guess".

Please end this already.

Doesnt this, if anything, prove that Goku is that much stronger now and that current UI Goku > ToP UI Goku?

It doesn't seem inconsistent if we assume Goku has gotten stronger, which, he has been training so it would make sense.

[Koitsukai]

But doesn't Moro still have Vegeta's Spirit Split thingy? that on top of UI and being a planet would make splitting Vegito/Gogeta a walk on the park

[LoganForkHands73]

Heck, a lot of it is built on concepts and premises he's introduced since the start of the Super manga (like needing to train your body before you can actually use ultra instinct efficiently, even before the technique had an official name).

Goku had to do the same thing to use Kaioken. I'm not going to keep going deep into all this. It's been pointed out countless times how much Toyo has stolen ideas from every other arc/saga in the series and from other shows/manga. Even so far as copying imagery from the games. I'm sure everyone recalls the crater formed when Merus-Moro clashed with PUI Goku.

Pretty much the same imagery.

That pretty much happens any time two powerful fighters' fists collide throughout the whole franchise. It's hardly "stealing" to use such a commonplace trope.

[Matches Malone]

Why do we need Moro to be the strongest foe ever? The arc doesn't need that and it adds nothing to the story of worth. It's just there because "that's what Dragon ball does, I guess".

It is what DB does, the difference is that now it's the only thing it does. Before we had character development and changes to the status quo to keep things fresh and interesting, both of which are more or less absent in modern DB. Moro will be outclassed by whoever's the next arc's villain, just as that villain will be outclassed by who comes after him.

Doesn't Moro still have Vegeta's Spirit Split thingy?

Didn't Goku learn that it's a bad idea to give a senzu to villains who want to kill everyone ? If Toyotaro forgot about that, don't be surprised if he also forgets Moro can split them.

[Psajdak]

This will be the absolute worst outcome. Fusion played a major role in the last 3 stories, we don't need to see it a 4th time.

That's not up to us...

To us fusions may be some final trump card weapons that are rarely used, but I'm not sure if authors think the same way; especially considering that they know how much Gogeta, and Vegetto are both popular characters on their own.

Also, I kinda believe that another reason why we see them rather often nowadays, is because it is in a way "being fair" to both Goku, and Vegeta, as well as their seiyu, considering how big Nozawa, and Horikawa are in Japan.

[Matches Malone]

To us fusions may be some final trump card weapons that are rarely used, but I'm not sure if authors think the same way; especially considering that they know how much Gogeta, and Vegetto are both popular characters on their own.

Also, I kinda believe that another reason why we see them rather often nowadays, is because it is in a way "being fair" to both Goku, and Vegeta, as well as their seiyu, considering how big Nozawa, and Horikawa are in Japan.

I understand why it's being done, the problem is that it takes away from the prestige of the concept. At this point it's lost all its weight. What made Goku and Vegeta's fusion so special in the Buu arc is it being the first time they worked together, we never saw anything like that before.

[The Undying]

That pretty much happens any time two powerful fighters' fists collide throughout the whole franchise. It's hardly "stealing" to use such a commonplace trope.

I'm still surprised that these things even need to be said. It's been a recurring criticism, but I didn't feel it was worth acknowledging in my earlier posts.

There are zero "references" to the Cell arc and movies/games outside of extremely vague, extremely surface-level similarities. It doesn't take much more than the bare minimum of critical thinking to understand that, and if anyone wants to dig even further and look at context, it's so fundamentally different that you'd have to be going into the chapter with an agenda to actually feel bothered by it.

Yeah, I have nothing more to say on the subject than that.

Doesnt this, if anything, prove that Goku is that much stronger now and that current UI Goku > ToP UI Goku?

It's more to do with the fact that Goku is using Ultra Instinct properly for the first time.

A thing people keep forgetting is that Goku wasn't really using a "mastered" UI in the manga's Tournament of Power. Yes, he gets the white-haired form, but then it's immediately noted that he can barely sustain it and his body isn't yet accustomed enough to the technique to bring out its potential; thus suggesting he probably would have been capable of evading Jiren's speed-raising strikes had it been completed during that fight.

Here in this arc, not only is it mastered/completed, 7-3 Moro (who is stronger than Jiren) is unable to land a single hit on Goku because of it. When he finally does manage to hit him, it's only because he has his own version of UI, which, logically, should "cancel out" the auto evasion effects.

[Kinokima]

I am not sure why people are expecting fusion this arc. Not saying they will never fuse again but I highly doubt it’s going to happen this arc especially since they literally said Moro can defuse them this arc

Granted I am not sure he can still do that with the condition he is in but I think the fact that not only do you have them saying Goku and Vegeta can’t use fusion, you have Vegeta saying he doesn’t want to rely on fusion this arc

They keep mentioning not using it this arc

[JewyB]

Doesnt this, if anything, prove that Goku is that much stronger now and that current UI Goku > ToP UI Goku?

It's more to do with the fact that Goku is using Ultra Instinct properly for the first time.

A thing people keep forgetting is that Goku wasn't really using a "mastered" UI in the manga's Tournament of Power. Yes, he gets the white-haired form, but then it's immediately noted that he can barely sustain it and his body isn't yet accustomed enough to the technique to bring out its potential; thus suggesting he probably would have been capable of evading Jiren's speed-raising strikes had it been completed during that fight.

Here in this arc, not only is it mastered/completed, 7-3 Moro (who is stronger than Jiren) is unable to land a single hit on Goku because of it. When he finally does manage to hit him, it's only because he has his own version of UI, which, logically, should "cancel out" the auto evasion effects.

Is it not both, i mean, i just said Goku got stronger, you explained in detail parts of why he is stronger, he also has that UI mastery on top of a higher level of strengh. Comparing Moro vs Goku Now is pointless to comparing how Jiren compared to less good Goku from ToP.

Because he's better.

[The Undying]

Because he's better.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Rather, I'm pointing out that while physical strength is part of it, being a required step to achieving mastery over UI, the difference is more directly related to that mastery.

As has been mentioned in the manga on numerous occasions, it can overcome any threat when fully grasped. Naturally, that would include Jiren. For Moro, the writers deliberately made it so that the only possible counter was another UI.

[DiscountDabi]

With all the faults this arc has, there is one thing that Toyotaro has done amazingly well this entire arc. My Favorite Character, Jaco, has been written and characterized perfectly. Even some call backs to his original Manga run like the fact that he’s not wearing pants and the mentioning of Blue Aurum. Jaco has never been better than he has been in this arc and that’s important. He’s basically a lead in this arc and that makes me so happy.