Exactly. And stuff like that is not unheard of from a lot of other creators. A lot of what sells a fictional world is the illusion of an internal logic, and they know it. The author doesn't always show or share all it entails (no matter how in-depth or vague it might be), but it is there, it was designed with it in mind, and that's enough.
"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
- Luso Saiyan
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1479
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
- Location: Portugal
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
That contradicts what I've seen in the Harry Potter fandom. People using JK Rowling's information/words as part of the series.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:42 amI thought it was common sense throughout every fandom that an author’s extra-universal comments were technically not a part of a story because they were not incorporated into their work
And if that's supposed to be "common sense", then I really must be a very unusual individual. As far as I can tell, an author's words is nothing more than part of supplemental material, which you are entitled to accept what they are saying or not, since there's nothing official that says you must take every word into account and vice-versa.
Who's to say I'm wrong by ignoring Toriyama's pointless "Buu wasn't created by Bibidi" but by accepting the existence of an alternate dimension that was spoken by him?
Naturally, this also goes to guidebooks and their supplemental information too.
- PurestEvil
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
- Location: Constantinopolee!
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Well, for the record, I never said that we should completely disregard Toriyama's comments from interviews without hesitation. It's just that these comments are not actually incorporated into the work, so they are easily subject to contradiction by later works (possibly due to the author thinking of a better idea). I don't believe that such contradictions should be as big of an issue as, say, a genuine retcon of information present in a past work (potara fusion comes to mind), especially considering how weirdly Toriyama goes about with things.Grimlock wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:47 pm [...] As far as I can tell, an author's words is nothing more than part of supplemental material, which you are entitled to accept what they are saying or not, since there's nothing official that says you must take every word into account and vice-versa.
Who's to say I'm wrong by ignoring Toriyama's pointless "Buu wasn't created by Bibidi" but by accepting the existence of an alternate dimension that was spoken by him?
Naturally, this also goes to guidebooks and their supplemental information too.
...but yeah, my statement about all that being common sense was pretty ignorant of me. I apologize for that.
This post was brought to you by 魔族
Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Authors are also not infallible. We can sometimes even be a capricious bunch and some of us have bad memories and accidentally change important details to make other ideas fit better. There are even times when our fans know our work or characters better than us, though yes, they aren't privy to the inner workings of an author's mind. We may remember something differently later than we originally intended, especially when it comes to work we've put down for a while. Most authors I know are detail oriented, but even they are only human. I use an extensive series of notes to help keep things intact, but even so, you forget things easily.Luso Saiyan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:44 pmExactly. And stuff like that is not unheard of from a lot of other creators. A lot of what sells a fictional world is the illusion of an internal logic, and they know it. The author doesn't always show or share all it entails (no matter how in-depth or vague it might be), but it is there, it was designed with it in mind, and that's enough.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
- LoganForkHands73
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Most long-running franchises that lose a creator (or only cursorily involve them as many modern reboots do) inevitably lose that unique 'spark' in turn. But that said, the original creators aren't infallible gods, they can make mistakes sometimes. Dragon Ball has always had a bit of a raw deal in terms of how it's handled as a media property by Toei, who constantly waver between hilariously failing to truly understand Dragon Ball's tone, to occasionally having flashes of brilliance that even Toriyama lauds and takes direct inspiration from, even if it sometimes diverges from the status quo. Undeniably, the anime has had many talented people and studios behind it.
Then you have Toyotaro, a great cartoonist who clearly "gets" Toriyama's style in a way few artists do, but often sprinkles in easter eggs for anime fans -- because he is one himself -- on top of his own idiosyncrasies which are becoming increasingly apparent as he gains more creative control over the story. If you follow the Toyotaro Drew It sketches, you'll know that Toyo is a huge Bardock stan, he's drawn him more often than any other character. There's zero doubt in my mind that including Bardock was 100% his idea. Everything related to Bardock-kun aside, Toyotaro is fantastic at writing just about every other character. We know that Toriyama influenced the controversial direction of Goku's character throughout Super, writing many of the gags at his expense. Now that Toriyama is seemingly loosening his grip on the manga, we're getting great scenes of Goku... not acting like an irredeemable fuckwit? Actually displaying some basic intelligence and maturity?
There's always a fine line to walk when you're working on someone else's baby. Do you play it safe and try to emulate the original material as closely as possible? Do you go full Jackson Pollock and splooge your paint spatters all over it? Both have their merits in my opinion.
Then you have Toyotaro, a great cartoonist who clearly "gets" Toriyama's style in a way few artists do, but often sprinkles in easter eggs for anime fans -- because he is one himself -- on top of his own idiosyncrasies which are becoming increasingly apparent as he gains more creative control over the story. If you follow the Toyotaro Drew It sketches, you'll know that Toyo is a huge Bardock stan, he's drawn him more often than any other character. There's zero doubt in my mind that including Bardock was 100% his idea. Everything related to Bardock-kun aside, Toyotaro is fantastic at writing just about every other character. We know that Toriyama influenced the controversial direction of Goku's character throughout Super, writing many of the gags at his expense. Now that Toriyama is seemingly loosening his grip on the manga, we're getting great scenes of Goku... not acting like an irredeemable fuckwit? Actually displaying some basic intelligence and maturity?
There's always a fine line to walk when you're working on someone else's baby. Do you play it safe and try to emulate the original material as closely as possible? Do you go full Jackson Pollock and splooge your paint spatters all over it? Both have their merits in my opinion.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Considering that Dragon Ball is an institution, I highly doubt that Toyotaro is just allowed to fuck around and do whatever he wants--because money.
With that said...I don't necessarily care for people using Toriyama as a shield for some of his questionable story choices. As already stated: an author is not infallible. More importantly, we live in a post-deconstructionist world in which what doesn't really matter is the author's intention, but how said intention makes audience feel.
With that said...I don't necessarily care for people using Toriyama as a shield for some of his questionable story choices. As already stated: an author is not infallible. More importantly, we live in a post-deconstructionist world in which what doesn't really matter is the author's intention, but how said intention makes audience feel.
- capsulecorp
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 410
- Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:08 am
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Well, that's nice and all but it ignores how society is much more in-tune with understanding the effect that media has on public perception. Being a commercial product aimed at kids is going to present restrictions for Dragon Ball productions while also beckoning that a certain standard of content appropriateness for the target audience is met.capsulecorp wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:49 pmI disagree, especially in the case of Dragon Ball, where the audience is so vast. The way the audience feels... doesn't really matter. Especially not to me.
She/Her
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
bisexual milf
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
1. I would argue that an original author, in the world they created, is completely infallible. Within the context of Dragonball, Toriyama can do no wrong. He can do things you don’t like, or that make you feel bad, but he isn’t wrong to do them.
2. Too many works nowadays cater to audiences’ expectations, such that any works that DONT are vilified. Personally I think audiences should be ignored entirely so the author/painter/director/storyteller/what have you can create their work unbothered, unfiltered and untethered.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder
http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg
You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Ok, how many pages do you want them to dedicate to Bardock vs Gas? For one Gas needs some characterization but then we already know the end result of this fight anyway. If I were in charge I'd settle this in 10-13 and then move to present time events.
- PurestEvil
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
- Location: Constantinopolee!
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
If I had that authority, I would designate the first half of the chapter to Bardock vs Gas and the aftermath, then the second half to the present, which would include Granolah's reaction and the Heeters summoning the dragon (that is what they will most definitely do).
This post was brought to you by 魔族
Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I hope next month releases a more fandom friendly chapter.
dragon ball is meant to be fun after all
dragon ball is meant to be fun after all
- PurestEvil
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
- Location: Constantinopolee!
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Fandom friendly? HAH! Dragon Ball fans will always find stuff to complain about.
This post was brought to you by 魔族
Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I also disagree. Though Dragon Ball does share a lot of similarity to professional wrestling where that is also the main focus, at least it used to be. But a story can be told in whatever way it needs to be, whatever way the author wants it to be.capsulecorp wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:49 pmI disagree, especially in the case of Dragon Ball, where the audience is so vast. The way the audience feels... doesn't really matter. Especially not to me.
Depends on what's being created and how serious the author is about the piece. With Berserk, I'd agree with you. There is certainly a strong vision there. With Dragon Ball, even early Dragon Ball, I think audience consideration has only made it a better product and even a better story.TKA wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:01 pm 2. Too many works nowadays cater to audiences’ expectations, such that any works that DONT are vilified. Personally I think audiences should be ignored entirely so the author/painter/director/storyteller/what have you can create their work unbothered, unfiltered and untethered.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
- LoganForkHands73
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Judging by one of the recent interviews, it seems Toriyama is happy with Toyotaro taking more storytelling initiative, but you're right that he's probably still limited and can't just paint the house red with no from the bossman.
I mean, I agree with the second point no questions asked, but I think the first is deifying the almighty auteur too much. Toriyama himself has admitted to making mistakes and bad calls in the past, from big things like realising he made the timeline mechanics in the Android arc too convoluted, to small continuity errors like drawing kid Dende in Buu arc scenes. I don't think anyone's implying he's morally wrong for the decisions he makes, but they're still free to criticise, just as he can criticise himself.1. I would argue that an original author, in the world they created, is completely infallible. Within the context of Dragonball, Toriyama can do no wrong. He can do things you don’t like, or that make you feel bad, but he isn’t wrong to do them.
2. Too many works nowadays cater to audiences’ expectations, such that any works that DONT are vilified. Personally I think audiences should be ignored entirely so the author/painter/director/storyteller/what have you can create their work unbothered, unfiltered and untethered.
In commercial art, there's always an element of collaboration so I don't care much for putting one special person on a gold pedestal. Much of Dragon Ball's creative DNA and direction came from Torishima, without him, Goku would look like a chibi Sun Wukong and the series probably wouldn't be focused on martial arts at all. For the record, I do believe Toriyama is undoubtedly the most important voice in Dragon Ball, but he's not the only voice that matters, especially since Dragon Ball Super is a collaboration between him and Toyotaro. If Super makes a mistake, surely Toriyama would be partly to blame? I guess my main point is, why must the original author be given all the creative leeway and infallibility, but nobody else, even the ones who work directly beside Toriyama?
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Nope, no caveats to my statement. I fully believe that it's all incumbent on the original author. They can do anything they want to with their baby. That Toriyama made moves to make the series more popular in the earlier days doesn't run counter to what I'm saying. He decided new elements needed to be introduced (tournaments) to boost sales, and he can do that since he's the original author. There were any number of popular things he could've done, but he knows his work enough to pick the right one.
Etc. etc.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder
http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg
You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
He didn't decide, his editor decided. If Toriyama continued his original vision, we'd not have Dragon Ball in its current incarnation. There's a decent case to be made that we wouldn't have Dragon Ball at all past Pilaf's Castle if Torishima-san didn't step in with his recommendations. I'm not saying you're wrong, but he clearly is not the same level of visionary as someone like Kentaro Miura or George R.R. Martin. Dragon Ball is only so malleable because there's a certain level of disinterest Toriyama-san has for the series. He simply can't be bothered with certain aspects which is why Torishima, Toei, and Toyotaro (all those T's) can exert so much influence over the franchise.TKA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:49 amNope, no caveats to my statement. I fully believe that it's all incumbent on the original author. They can do anything they want to with their baby. That Toriyama made moves to make the series more popular in the earlier days doesn't run counter to what I'm saying. He decided new elements needed to be introduced (tournaments) to boost sales, and he can do that since he's the original author.
Etc. etc.
This, I wholeheartedly agree with. He has great instincts.There were any number of popular things he could've done, but he knows his work enough to pick the right one.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
FinallyBWri wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:00 pmHe didn't decide, his editor decided. If Toriyama continued his original vision, we'd not have Dragon Ball in its current incarnation. There's a decent case to be made that we wouldn't have Dragon Ball at all past Pilaf's Castle if Torishima-san didn't step in with his recommendations. I'm not saying you're wrong, but he clearly is not the same level of visionary as someone like Kentaro Miura or George R.R. Martin. Dragon Ball is only so malleable because there's a certain level of disinterest Toriyama-san has for the series. He simply can't be bothered with certain aspects which is why Torishima, Toei, and Toyotaro (all those T's) can exert so much influence over the franchise.TKA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:49 amNope, no caveats to my statement. I fully believe that it's all incumbent on the original author. They can do anything they want to with their baby. That Toriyama made moves to make the series more popular in the earlier days doesn't run counter to what I'm saying. He decided new elements needed to be introduced (tournaments) to boost sales, and he can do that since he's the original author.
Etc. etc.
This, I wholeheartedly agree with. He has great instincts.There were any number of popular things he could've done, but he knows his work enough to pick the right one.
Someone acknowledging that even the original manga wasn’t a one man masterpiece created exclusively from the mind of Toriyama. As stated, if Toriyama hadn’t been pushed by his editors and had his story enhanced with their recommendation we likely wouldn’t even be talking about Dragon Ball today.
- LoganForkHands73
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Yeah. What's more galling is that Torishima-san was just following the trends set by Hokuto no Ken, a manga he didn't even personally like, which Toriyama trundled along with to great effect. But Torishima saw Toriyama's unique talent for action scenes and wanted to nurture that. A danger is assuming that artists/authors exist in bubbles and that their genius just spontaneously arrives to them, but it's rarely a true one-man-show. There's usually a teacher, a muse, a collaborator, or just someone egging them along on the sidelines.
Besides, anyone can claim to be "the original auteur" of something but it doesn't automatically make them untouchable. Jeff Koons is a proper artiste-with-an-e, at least that's what his dealers and billionaire bidders with more money than sense would have people believe, but most of his work is kitschy, cynical, meaningless tat. He has the human right to make his art the way he wants, sure. But I can still say it's tat.
Besides, anyone can claim to be "the original auteur" of something but it doesn't automatically make them untouchable. Jeff Koons is a proper artiste-with-an-e, at least that's what his dealers and billionaire bidders with more money than sense would have people believe, but most of his work is kitschy, cynical, meaningless tat. He has the human right to make his art the way he wants, sure. But I can still say it's tat.
- UpFromTheSkies
- I Live Here
- Posts: 2213
- Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Yeah, if the original manga had been created exclusively by Toriyama it would have turned out very differently, and would have most likely never lasted as long as it did. Back when the original manga was being created, Toriyama's editors basically had the final say, and if they didn't like a design Toriyama made, or the direction a story arc was going, it was back to the drawing board for Toriyama. It's interesting that now Toriyama is playing that role with Toyotaro.TheMikado wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:52 pm Finally
Someone acknowledging that even the original manga wasn’t a one man masterpiece created exclusively from the mind of Toriyama. As stated, if Toriyama hadn’t been pushed by his editors and had his story enhanced with their recommendation we likely wouldn’t even be talking about Dragon Ball today.