"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

In the anime didn’t Hit admit to champa that he knew he had failed vs jiren once his punch didn’t send Jiren off the stage?

Yep. Hit told him if he couldn't beat Jiren with his final attack in one shot his defeat is assured.

[majinwarman]

After reading the leaked chapter, I have to say
that I'm extremely disappointed this month. Hit was treated worse in the chapter than what the anime did for his elimination. I hope next month is better.

What.

How? In the anime Jiren just did his typical "my power is maximum" shit and stomped Hit (Jiren even surpasses time!!!1!!111!!!eleven!!!). Here, its not inconceivable that Hit and Goku working together could've taken him out. Here, Jiren beat Hit by sucker punching him after playing possum. Here, Hit displayed character growth and fought the strongest guy, not his b-league friends.

This is really cut and dry. Maybe you didn't like how things unfolded, but by no stretch of the imagination did the anime treat Hit better.

You're delusional. Hit legitimately caught Jiren off guard and knocked Jiren to the edge of the ring in the anime using pure skill and strategy before Jiren overpowered him. Unlike in the magna, Jiren was just screwing around with him the entire time. So Jiren going to the edge was nothing more than a plan by Jiren , unlike the anime where Hit is the first guy to strike Jiren legitimately. Claiming otherwise is naive

Jiren was basically playing around with Hit during the entire fight.

[EGonzo]

While I didn't find this chapter great, I don't have many things to complain but there's two things that confuse me:

1) Why is Goku using SSJ2 and keep up with Toppo and Dyspo? My main confusion is that Toppo pre-God Ki was so strong SSJ3 Goku couldn't even react to him. So Toppo not serious is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but here SSJ2 can keep up (even if at a disadvantage) with his speed and strength, along with fighting a second opponent at the same time.

2) The bit with Hit and Jiren. Goku knows Jiren is the strongest there, and the biggest obstacle to win the tournament. It makes sense he says he needs to break his limits to beat Jiren and thus win, but it doesn't make sense that he says it right after a guy tells him "hey, I have this way to beat him, just back me up". It doesn't really make sense, especially he genuinely thought Hit was gonna win until the last minute.

Goku is a genius at reading fighters. I found it a bit jarring as well but I liked it. Goku knew anything they can try at their current level would he futile, he let hit try his thing but I'm sure he believed it wouldnt be enough.

I read the part again just to double check, and at least to me Goku seems to think it actually worked. It's only at the very end that he notices Jiren is just messing around. That said, it doesn't really matter, it's just a small issue.

[Asura]

I agree with the people calling Goku a dick. I understood what Toyotaro was going for there with Goku wanting to beat Jiren on his own, but it was basically as if Piccolo was telling Goku about his Makankosappo during the fight with Raditz and Goku going "Eh... nah, you have fun with that, cya."

I'd understand it if they were doing well against Jiren (or rather, Jiren was letting them do well) but considering how badly they were getting their asses beat it just seems strange that Goku would be like lol peace have fun soloing him. It's also strange to me that Goku immediately believes Hit can take out Jiren with his new technique after they were both getting slaughtered by him in a 2v1 and that's why Goku quits.

[Miracles]

1. Goku wasn't being a "jerk" not fighting with Hit in the end. He was being in character by not missing a chance to improve himself.
Even told Hit that the ONLY way to beat Jiren is him assuming a new form. And fighting Jiren ALONE is the only way to get it done.

2. Why are people shocked Toppo isn't swatting away a SSJ2? It's obvious Toppo is holding back tremendously to save ammo.
Proof of that is when Dyspo turned it up a notch and started dancing around SSJ2 Goku with ease.

[Bergamo]

I agree with the people calling Goku a dick. I understood what Toyotaro was going for there with Goku wanting to beat Jiren on his own, but it was basically as if Piccolo was telling Goku about his Makankosappo during the fight with Raditz and Goku going "Eh... nah, you have fun with that, cya."

I'd understand it if they were doing well against Jiren (or rather, Jiren was letting them do well) but considering how badly they were getting their asses beat it just seems strange that Goku would be like lol peace have fun soloing him. It's also strange to me that Goku immediately believes Hit can take out Jiren with his new technique after they were both getting slaughtered by him in a 2v1 and that's why Goku quits.

Goku doesn't want to beat Jiren using tricks, because he believes that this tournament is the best opportunity to quickly break through his limits and obtain the power of the gods. Whether or not you think this is a good explanation is a different story.

[Omniboy]

Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all. Jiren has been handled better so far, and his dialogue with Goku in this chapter by first calling him a nameless warrior then referring to his name was pretty good. Goku alluding to Ultra Instinct felt kinda stupid and forced to me, all of a sudden he's like "Yep, I'm gonna figure out a new transformation during the tournament so we can win." Well okay then, that came out of nowhere. Didn't know Goku could just decide when he wants to get a new transformation now on the spot.

Would you approach a fight between hit, goku and jiren. If i was in a battle royale I'm staying far, far away from that. Its not a bad thing for the manga to shift focus to one on ones as long as its not always doing that. By the same token i dont want just pages with like 10 plus characters on each.

Plus we got dyspo and toppo taking on Goku together. Loved how they just werent on goku's radar at all.

I wasn't referring just specifically to this chapter, the entire thing doesn't really feel like a big tournament with tons of people fighting in it. The arena looks really, really tiny in almost every shot. That's actually pretty easy to see in this chapter though. It's like Toyotaro has trouble drawing depth of field or something because it always looks like every character is fighting at the edge of the arena, or that they're the only characters fighting on the entire arena because everything behind them is just blank and empty arena space. Here's a picture with a few shots from 34 and 35 to show exactly what I mean:

[spoiler][/spoiler]


The anime handled this in a much smarter manner by destroying the arena so everything was just a rocky wasteland which obstructed the view of the background. Notice how curved the arena is in some of these shots, which makes it seem really tiny if it's curving like that. I know it was hard to tell where people were in the arena in the anime version, but here it's even worse because everyone looks like they're in the exact same location because of how small the arena is. I don't even know how 80 people can fit on this thing, the anime version always felt gigantic in most shots.

Now first, about the size of the ring. The way Toyo draws, it would seem that it is actually small, and I don't mean in just those panels you showed me. I mean when we actually have a good view of it with everybody there. However, maybe it is just my eyes, and maybe I am underestimating the size at which he draws.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If it is in fact truly smaller than the anime draws it, I am not saying that Toyo's way is the right way it is supposed to be drawn. However, I will say that it is consistent with your examples. (Although that Tien shot looks a lot worse than the rest.)


Now onto the second part about leaving empty spaces with no one there. I believe that in the Goku, Hit, and Jiren panels, that those are fighters appearing with them. Just not physically. Instead, Toyo draws a cloud of dust around them while the participants are fighting to give the illusion that other fights are going on. This does also appears in the previous chapter where Frost nearly takes out a universe. However the cloud of dust, that signifies that other fights are going on appears behind him on the other side of the arena in one of the panels.

Although tbh, I kind of feel like I am straying away from the point that you are actually trying to make, because I don't truly understand the point you are trying to make. If I am, don't be afraid to tell me.

[OLKv3]

I find it hilarious how "holding back" is now needed to defend the manga

[Saturnine]

I have no problem with chars holding back. If Toppo goes toe to toe with a Ssj Blue later, it stands to reason that he'd been holding back against a Ssj2, come on.

[batistabus]

I will transcribe this scene because I swear some of you only look at the leaks and don't actually read the translation.

Goku: You can count me out. I wanna bet Jiren alone.

Hit: Beat him alone? But weren't you at full strength just now?

Goku: Sure was, but still… there's another wall I've gotta overcome first.

Hit: Wall? A transformation beyond Blue, is it?

Goku: Something like that.

Hit: And you plan to push past that wall during this tournament?

Goku: Yup…otherwise we probably don't have a chance.

Hit: Confident, aren't you?

Goku: It's not confidence. Not really. It's the only option I've got.

In summary, Goku does not think teaming up with Hit will be enough to defeat Jiren. He says whatever lies beyond Blue is the only chance Universe 7 ("we") has of winning the tournament. He's not being a dick to Hit. In fact, he is correct. He's being brutally honest in the way that Goku always is. Yes, Goku wants to break through that barrier and have a good fight with Jiren, but he's being realistic as well. It's going to take everything he has to take Jiren head-on and push himself over the edge. That's why he can't use his full power against fighters who aren't Jiren, and that's what he can't attempt a gimmick-based team attack that could have (and would have) ended up backfiring.

It's logical, it's consistent with Goku's character, it fits into what has been built up since this arc started, and it's foreshadowing what will happen later on. I don't know what more you need.

[Bergamo]

I find it hilarious how "holding back" is now needed to defend the manga

Viewing everything through the lenses of defending your adaptation is childish. They stated that people are holding back to conserve energy, so holding back is a reasonable argument. They didn't state Goku was holding back when he was fighting Trunks, so I consider that an inconsistency.

[Asura]

In summary, Goku does not think teaming up with Hit will be enough to defeat Jiren.

Then why does he do it to begin with? He only stops teaming up with him once Hit assures him that he has a secret move that will beat Jiren, so obviously Goku does think, at least at the time, that him and Hit can beat Jiren, otherwise he wouldn't have quit and said nah I wanna beat him on my own.

Whether you think it's in character or not doesn't detract from it being a dick move on Goku's part.

[Bergamo]

In summary, Goku does not think teaming up with Hit will be enough to defeat Jiren.

Then why does he do it to begin with? He only stops teaming up with him once Hit assures him that he has a secret move that will beat Jiren, so obviously Goku does think, at least at the time, that him and Hit can beat Jiren, otherwise he wouldn't have quit and said nah I wanna beat him on my own.

Goku and Hit never teamed up. Goku was attacking Jiren and then Hit started attacking Jiren. There was no agreement.

I wish I could discuss this chapter without having to feel like I'm defending it. Why do so many people feel the need to nitpick and overblow minute details? Yes, this chapter isn't flawless, but does the 5 page Toppo vs Goku fight deserve 4 pages of conversation? Everybody is just explaining the same things over and over again. If you have a grievance, you might want to skim the previous pages to see if someone has already mentioned it, because we are going in circles.

[Asura]

In summary, Goku does not think teaming up with Hit will be enough to defeat Jiren.

Then why does he do it to begin with? He only stops teaming up with him once Hit assures him that he has a secret move that will beat Jiren, so obviously Goku does think, at least at the time, that him and Hit can beat Jiren, otherwise he wouldn't have quit and said nah I wanna beat him on my own.

Goku and Hit never teamed up. Goku was attacking Jiren and then Hit started attacking Jiren. There was no agreement.

How is that any different than saying they teamed up? They were both attacking Jiren at the same time instead of attacking each other. Why does there need to be some kind of official agreement for it to be a team-up? What else would you call it?

[Bergamo]

Then why does he do it to begin with? He only stops teaming up with him once Hit assures him that he has a secret move that will beat Jiren, so obviously Goku does think, at least at the time, that him and Hit can beat Jiren, otherwise he wouldn't have quit and said nah I wanna beat him on my own.

Goku and Hit never teamed up. Goku was attacking Jiren and then Hit started attacking Jiren. There was no agreement.

How is that any different than saying they teamed up? They were both attacking Jiren at the same time instead of attacking each other. Why does there need to be some kind of official agreement for it to be a team-up? What else would you call it?

>Hit and Goku team up in the heat of battle.

>Hit asks Goku to use a coordinated attack.

>Goku considers Hit's proposition (he wasn't considering anything while fighting).

>Goku declines.

How is Goku changing his actions after stopping and thinking about something hard to understand?

[Asura]

Goku and Hit never teamed up. Goku was attacking Jiren and then Hit started attacking Jiren. There was no agreement.

How is that any different than saying they teamed up? They were both attacking Jiren at the same time instead of attacking each other. Why does there need to be some kind of official agreement for it to be a team-up? What else would you call it?

>Hit and Goku team up in the heat of battle.

>Hit asks Goku to use a coordinated attack.

>Goku considers Hit's proposition (he wasn't considering anything while fighting).

>Goku declines.

How is Goku changing his actions after stopping and thinking about something hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand at all. Goku declines Hit's offer because he wants to beat Jiren on his own, Hit then gets KOed because Goku doesn't help him. This makes Goku a dick. I think it's strange that Goku rejects Hit's offer to team-up against an enemy that is destroying both of them, at least in the way it was presented. Yeah, Goku's selfish and obviously he'd want to beat Jiren on his own, but the way this situation was framed basically made it similar to the Piccolo & Goku vs Raditz situation, except this time Goku tells Piccolo good luck, have fun against him.

[Bergamo]

How is that any different than saying they teamed up? They were both attacking Jiren at the same time instead of attacking each other. Why does there need to be some kind of official agreement for it to be a team-up? What else would you call it?

>Hit and Goku team up in the heat of battle.

>Hit asks Goku to use a coordinated attack.

>Goku considers Hit's proposition (he wasn't considering anything while fighting).

>Goku declines.

How is Goku changing his actions after stopping and thinking about something hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand at all. Goku declines Hit's offer because he wants to beat Jiren on his own, Hit then gets KOed because Goku doesn't help him. This makes Goku a dick. I think it's strange that Goku rejects Hit's offer to team-up against an enemy that is destroying both of them, at least in the way it was presented. Yeah, Goku's selfish and obviously he'd want to beat Jiren on his own, but the way this situation was framed basically made it similar to the Piccolo & Goku vs Raditz situation, except this time Goku tells Piccolo good luck, have fun against him.

Goku tries to help Hit by warning him about Jiren's trap, albeit a bit too late. Also, Goku being a bit of a jerk shouldn't greatly affect your opinion on the chapter. It's kind of par for the course.

[Dragono]

How is that any different than saying they teamed up? They were both attacking Jiren at the same time instead of attacking each other. Why does there need to be some kind of official agreement for it to be a team-up? What else would you call it?

>Hit and Goku team up in the heat of battle.

>Hit asks Goku to use a coordinated attack.

>Goku considers Hit's proposition (he wasn't considering anything while fighting).

>Goku declines.

How is Goku changing his actions after stopping and thinking about something hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand at all. Goku declines Hit's offer because he wants to beat Jiren on his own, Hit then gets KOed because Goku doesn't help him. This makes Goku a dick. I think it's strange that Goku rejects Hit's offer to team-up against an enemy that is destroying both of them, at least in the way it was presented. Yeah, Goku's selfish and obviously he'd want to beat Jiren on his own, but the way this situation was framed basically made it similar to the Piccolo & Goku vs Raditz situation, except this time Goku tells Piccolo good luck, have fun against him.

Isn't that what Piccolo did to him?

[Asura]

Isn't that what Piccolo did to him?

Uh... no? You watched Z right? The first fight in the series where Piccolo and Goku team up to fight his brother Raditz?

Goku tries to help Hit by warning him about Jiren's trap, albeit a bit too late. Also, Goku being a bit of a jerk shouldn't greatly affect your opinion on the chapter. It's kind of par for the course.

Goku being a dick isn't my issue with the chapter, it was just kind of a boring chapter to me that continues to have the same problem as the other chapters in the ToP manga version, everything feels incredibly small with rushed pacing and 2 or 3 people fighting at once while the background is completely empty.

[Bergamo]

Isn't that what Piccolo did to him?

Uh... no? You watched Z right? The first fight in the series where Piccolo and Goku team up to fight his brother Raditz?

Goku tries to help Hit by warning him about Jiren's trap, albeit a bit too late. Also, Goku being a bit of a jerk shouldn't greatly affect your opinion on the chapter. It's kind of par for the course.

Goku being a dick isn't my issue with the chapter, it was just kind of a boring chapter to me that continues to have the same problem as the other chapters in the ToP manga version, everything feels incredibly small with rushed pacing and 2 or 3 people fighting at once while the background is completely empty.

I'm going to refer you to Omniboy's post in response to you comments about scale and background. About pacing, 5 minutes after 2 chapters isn't rushed. 1 elimination in an entire chapter isn't rushed.