Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[emperior]

Nope, it would confirm nothing if Goku stated Buu has gotten stronger.

That makes no sense. If Boo, who was Boo arc SS2-SS3 level, got stronger and Goku is able to handle him fine in Super Saiyan, then that obviously means that both of them got stronger; Goku would be much stronger than his Boo arc self.

Goku obviously got much stronger than he was during Buu arc, the problem is: how strong has he gotten? RoF implied his base was as strong or even stronger than Super Saiyan God, or at the very least stronger than his BoG SSJ3 self, but we assume it's not the case from U6 tournament onwards for many reasons.

But you are right, what I predicted probably doesn't make much sense.

[Doctor.]

Nope, it would confirm nothing if Goku stated Buu has gotten stronger.

That makes no sense. If Boo, who was Boo arc SS2-SS3 level, got stronger and Goku is able to handle him fine in Super Saiyan, then that obviously means that both of them got stronger; Goku would be much stronger than his Boo arc self.

Goku obviously got much stronger than he was during Buu arc, the problem is: how strong has he gotten? RoF implied his base was as strong or even stronger than Super Saiyan God, or at the very least stronger than his BoG SSJ3 self, but we assume it's not the case from U6 tournament onwards for many reasons.

But you are right, what I predicted probably doesn't make much sense.

It probably won't give us a concrete answer if they just throw out abstract statements like "you've gotten stronger" at Boo, but we should still be able to place Goku in relation to Boo arc characters depending on the forms he uses.

[Cabba]

Like I said to Simere it looks like Goku and Vegeta power levels have been retconned in the show after RoF and sorry but where the manga implies that SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta > Vegetto? Cause I don't remember such thing.
I think all the forms have been improved as I said before, I just don't believe: SSJ/2/3 > SSJ God.

This is the problem i have with such argument. Its such a broad statement. Its been retconned what exactly?
We dont have much evidence to go for in the anime to make any such claim. The only thing we can agree on is that between FnF and now they duffer in the way they use God power wheres before it seems they used god power on base form and now is more complicated

In the anime Goku SS2 owned the same black that treated SS2 Trunks like fodder, Base Goku fought evenly in both speed and power against bergamo in his base form. The strongest brother of the three, thats evidence of base Goku being at least SS2 level

As far as the manga goes:
Vegeta stated that trunks SS2 powered up transformation was nearly as strong as the SS3 goku used. Trunks said that even with that transformation he was nothing but fodder to Black Goku
Fast forward to the future and Vegeta SS2 absolutely crushes Black SS2,the same Black SS2 that crushed Trunks transformation that was as strong as a SS3, Black would have to be on mystic gohan level at least to treat SS3 like fodder and Vegeta would have to be near vegeto tier or higher to crush said Black

Really? So Base Goku needing a heavy suit to fight restrained with Krillin to later needing to use SSJ, SSJB in a brief sparring match was all right?

Filler and the fact that show tried to make a point of krillin usefulness while poorly executing in. Going by the same logic Krillin is SSB tier
If you take this episode at face value then you accept Goku and Vegeta are SSG tier on their base forms

The other Gohan episode you mentioned seem to be mostly filler and flashyness. There seems to be this trend of Goku "holding back" even in his higher forms as shown in SSB vs Krillin. If you question why Goku turn SSJ against Gohan then question why he turned SSJ and SSB against krillin

[pacz360]

It really depends on how strong buu gotten from training next episode to decide where you wanna decide to place base saiyans.

[pacz360]

I guess next ep will answer the question of where the base saiyans are at power wise.

I will honestly be surprised if it does, what will probably happen is that Goku and Buu spar a bit, then Goku tells Buu to get serious and proceeds to transform into a SSJ, and they continue to spar with Goku commenting how strong Buu is. Maybe Goku will also go SSJ3 in the end for some nostalgia and then he will remember he has to go to Dende's so he will stop the battle.

As for 17, if Goku spars with him he will comment how strong 17 is compared to his sister (implying he trained, if 17 doesn't outright state it) and transform into a SSJ so Goku's base power will still be a mystery.

But that would confirm they are not that many times stronger than their Boo arc self's.

With the info we have right now they are close to Boo in base. Hopefully Goku does use Super Saiyan.

I failed to see anything as of now that screams boo > base goku and vegeta especially when vegeta stomps gotenks.
If buu gotten a shitload stronger than he was from pre training than yeah he is> base

[Noah]

In the anime Goku SS2 owned the same black that treated SS2 Trunks like fodder, Base Goku fought evenly in both speed and power against bergamo in his base form. The strongest brother of the three, thats evidence of base Goku being at least SS2 level

As far as the manga goes:
Vegeta stated that trunks SS2 powered up transformation was nearly as strong as the SS3 goku used. Trunks said that even with that transformation he was nothing but fodder to Black Goku
Fast forward to the future and Vegeta SS2 absolutely crushes Black SS2,the same Black SS2 that crushed Trunks transformation that was as strong as a SS3, Black would have to be on mystic gohan level at least to treat SS3 like fodder and Vegeta would have to be near vegeto tier or higher to crush said Black

You ignore that Goku states that Trunks is stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games, That's a measure point. So you're saying that SSJ2 Goku that was surpassed by SSJ2 Trunks is also stronger than Vegetto?

Also I don't remember the manga implying that Black fought as a SSJ2 with Trunks before, what we know is that both Vegeta and Trunks display a greater power as SSJ2 than Goku, that's for sure.

Filler and the fact that show tried to make a point of krillin usefulness while poorly executing in. Going by the same logic Krillin is SSB tier
If you take this episode at face value then you accept Goku and Vegeta are SSG tier on their base forms

The other Gohan episode you mentioned seem to be mostly filler and flashyness. There seems to be this trend of Goku "holding back" even in his higher forms as shown in SSB vs Krillin. If you question why Goku turn SSJ against Gohan then question why he turned SSJ and SSB against krillin

Sorry pal, but there's no such thing as filler in Super. It's funny that people when discussing power levels in the show tends to throw this word often at the same time they use the Potaufeu arc and Goku fighting with Beerus disguised as Monaka as arguments, quite contradictory huh?

Also Goku shows no signs he was holding back on Gohan, in fact he wanted to display more power in their match but Chichi stopped them.

[TheMikado]

There is no filler in Super, the ANIME IS the main product.

[Cabba]

You ignore that Goku states that Trunks is stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games, That's a measure point. So you're saying that SSJ2 Goku that was surpassed by SSJ2 Trunks is also stronger than Vegetto?
Also I don't remember the manga implying that Black fought as a SSJ2 with Trunks before, what we know is that both Vegeta and Trunks display a greater power as SSJ2 than Goku, that's for sure.

You are mixing manga and anime. This is why i touch both subjects separately
Anime: SS2 tier Trunks is fodder to black, Goku SS2 owns said black
Manga: When Trunks transforms SS2 he goes one step further to which Vegeta comments is almost as strong as SS3 Goku
Here is the key part: Trunks said, "even with this power i was nothing but fodder" this is where it implies Trunks fought black with this power.
When Vegeta SS2 crushes black, trunks says black is a little stronger than when i fought him

So here it goes to simplify I'm gonna be using this nomenclature
Trunks SS2U= Transformation thats as powerful as SS3
Black SS2B= Mytic Gohan tier>crushes SS3
Vegeta SS2G= Vegeto Tier>Crushes Black SS2B

SS2G>SS2B>SS2U
Vegeto>MysticGohan>SS3

Goku SS2 is as strong as Vegeta SS2. Goku just meme holds back
We can theorize night and day how is it possible that Vegeta SS2 is leagues stronger than Goku SS3. Perhaps it infuses with God ki which Goku didn't do earlier, or perhaps Goku just wanted to show Trunks the old multipliers to get an idea of Blacks strength

If you accept Vegeta SS2>GokuSS2 then you accept Vegeta SS2>GokuSS3
Thats just impossible, they have the same training up until that point and Goku always has the edge

Sorry pal, but there's no such thing as filler in Super. It's funny that people when discussing power levels in the show tends to throw this word often at the same time they use the Potaufeu arc and Goku fighting with Beerus disguised as Monaka as arguments, quite contradictory huh? Also Goku shows no signs he was holding back on Gohan, in fact he wanted to display more power in their match but Chichi stopped them.

There is no filler in Super, the ANIME IS the main product.

I should use another word, when i mean Filler, i mean in the sense that is senseless fun with no regard for anything, you could say its a gag episode. And it will quickly be contradicted in future episodes see: Goku vs Bergamo and Gohan Vs levanda Following your logic Base Goku is Vegeto tier since he was able to crush SS3 Gotenks, since there are no fillers in DBS

Whats the word for something that its just there for show as one time thing for funs sake and will be retconned or contradicted soon after?

[TheMikado]

There isn't any official retcon and Dragonballs format is serialized. The show definitely meant to show they at that level of power on purpose, right or wrong. You can't dismiss one aspect of it because it doesn't "fit". If they can't be bother to explain what is actually going on then webas the audience have to take everything at face value otherwise we could just say the entirety of Super "doesn't count"

[The gr]

There is no filler in Super, the ANIME IS the main product.

I should use another word, when i mean Filler, i mean in the sense that is senseless fun with no regard for anything, you could say its a gag episode. And it will quickly be contradicted in future episodes see: Goku vs Bergamo and Gohan Vs levanda Following your logic Base Goku is Vegeto tier since he was able to crush SS3 Gotenks, since there are no fillers in DBS

Whats the word for something that its just there for show as one time thing for funs sake and will be retconned or contradicted soon after?

Episode 84, contradict 80 and 81 Care to explain

[Bullza]

If Goku ends up being a match for Buu it'll just mean both he and Gohan were holding back somewhat on Krillin is all.

I don't think the upcoming episode will really help matters. This Zen Exhibition was supposed to clear some things up and it's only made it even more complicated than it was before.

[Cabba]

There isn't any official retcon and Dragonballs format is serialized. The show definitely meant to show they at that level of power on purpose, right or wrong. You can't dismiss one aspect of it because it doesn't "fit". If they can't be bother to explain what is actually going on then webas the audience have to take everything at face value otherwise we could just say the entirety of Super "doesn't count"

Well that certainly seems to be the case for Goku and Vegeta base forms in the anime: We went from SSG tier on Base form to stronger than Gotenks SS3 to somewhere in between Perfect Cell and SS2

If Goku ends up being a match for Buu it'll just mean both he and Gohan were holding back somewhat on Krillin is all.

I think everyone knows and accepts this by now, no need for EP85 for that realization

Episode 84, contradict 80 and 81 Care to explain

I was talking about Gohans spar with Goku

[Triggered Vegeta]

Goku can go from sparing with Beerus in base.... to fighting Kuririn & Gohan/ Low tiers as If they are evenly matched. Sparing with someone doesn't necessarily mean you need to go full power... it's
not a death match. Goku can easily lower his level to match his opponent according to their strength.... it's called Ki control, his base hasn't gotten weaker. So you're telling me that if Frieza returned, Goku would have to turn SSB to battle 4th form Frieza because Goku's base magically got weak af? Nah, Base Goku now would embarrass Frieza worse than he did in the RoF movie... all I got to say.

[DBZ Macky]

Goku can go from sparing with Beerus in base.... to fighting Kuririn & Gohan/ Low tiers as If they are evenly matched. Sparing with someone doesn't necessarily mean you need to go full power... it's
not a death match. Goku can easily lower his level to match his opponent according to their strength.... it's called Ki control, his base hasn't gotten weaker. So you're telling me that if Frieza returned, Goku would have to turn SSB to battle 4th form Frieza because Goku's base magically got weak af? Nah, Base Goku now would embarrass Frieza worse than he did in the RoF movie... all I got to say.

Truer words haven't been spoken in this thread. Goku is weaker than Beerus in base, stronger than him in SS and weaker than him in SSB at the same time. Everyone's fucking "suppressed" and shit. Goku doesn't have two bases, he's just as strong as the plot requires.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Truer words haven't been spoken in this thread. Goku is weaker than Beerus in base, stronger than him in SS and weaker than him in SSB at the same time. Everyone's fucking "suppressed" and shit. Goku doesn't have two bases, he's just as strong as the plot requires.[/quote]

Hey Macky, 17 is going to fight Goku, this is after he spars with Buu, I feel like this thread will become toxic once that episode comes out. Sorry to the people I spoiled... had to be done.

[SJ158]

Hey Macky, 17 is going to fight Goku, this is after he spars with Buu, I feel like this thread will become toxic once that episode comes out. Sorry to the people I spoiled... had to be done.

Because some people here think DB is based on mathematics and that their headcannon is the actual cannon inside ATs head.

[The gr]

Goku can go from sparing with Beerus in base.... to fighting Kuririn & Gohan/ Low tiers as If they are evenly matched. Sparing with someone doesn't necessarily mean you need to go full power... it's
not a death match. Goku can easily lower his level to match his opponent according to their strength.... it's called Ki control, his base hasn't gotten weaker. So you're telling me that if Frieza returned, Goku would have to turn SSB to battle 4th form Frieza because Goku's base magically got weak af? Nah, Base Goku now would embarrass Frieza worse than he did in the RoF movie... all I got to say.

Truer words haven't been spoken in this thread. Goku is weaker than Beerus in base, stronger than him in SS and weaker than him in SSB at the same time. Everyone's fucking "suppressed" and shit. Goku doesn't have two bases, he's just as strong as the plot requires.

Wow I thought I was the only one,it was obvious that goku was suppressing his base form against Frost, gohan and krillin, and people seems to forget, that goku and Vegeta have perfect ki control thanks to ssb,so basically they could suppressed their base power from​ around 90,000,000 or 95,000,000 or as strong the plot demanded

[pacz360]

Goku can go from sparing with Beerus in base.... to fighting Kuririn & Gohan/ Low tiers as If they are evenly matched. Sparing with someone doesn't necessarily mean you need to go full power... it's
not a death match. Goku can easily lower his level to match his opponent according to their strength.... it's called Ki control, his base hasn't gotten weaker. So you're telling me that if Frieza returned, Goku would have to turn SSB to battle 4th form Frieza because Goku's base magically got weak af? Nah, Base Goku now would embarrass Frieza worse than he did in the RoF movie... all I got to say.

Truer words haven't been spoken in this thread. Goku is weaker than Beerus in base, stronger than him in SS and weaker than him in SSB at the same time. Everyone's fucking "suppressed" and shit. Goku doesn't have two bases, he's just as strong as the plot requires.

Wow I thought I was the only one,it was obvious that goku was suppressing his base form against Frost, gohan and krillin, and people seems to forget, that goku and Vegeta have perfect ki control thanks to ssb,so basically they could suppressed their base power from​ around 90,000,000 or 95,000,000 or as strong the plot demanded

Nothing indicates he was suppressing himself in base against gohan and frost in there fights.

[The gr]

Truer words haven't been spoken in this thread. Goku is weaker than Beerus in base, stronger than him in SS and weaker than him in SSB at the same time. Everyone's fucking "suppressed" and shit. Goku doesn't have two bases, he's just as strong as the plot requires.

Wow I thought I was the only one,it was obvious that goku was suppressing his base form against Frost, gohan and krillin, and people seems to forget, that goku and Vegeta have perfect ki control thanks to ssb,so basically they could suppressed their base power from​ around 90,000,000 or 95,000,000 or as strong the plot demanded

Nothing indicates he was suppressing himself in base against gohan and frost in there fights.

this panel perfectly indicates that goku was screwing around in u6

I really don't buy, that gohan and Frost was figthing the same goku from rof

[pacz360]

Goku can go from sparing with Beerus in base.... to fighting Kuririn & Gohan/ Low tiers as If they are evenly matched. Sparing with someone doesn't necessarily mean you need to go full power... it's
not a death match. Goku can easily lower his level to match his opponent according to their strength.... it's called Ki control, his base hasn't gotten weaker. So you're telling me that if Frieza returned, Goku would have to turn SSB to battle 4th form Frieza because Goku's base magically got weak af? Nah, Base Goku now would embarrass Frieza worse than he did in the RoF movie... all I got to say.

Pretty much this it makes no sense for there base form to be suddenly weaker of all of sudden especially when you have base vegeta one shotting a perfect cell tier fighter like Tacoma than later stomping ssj3 gotenks with ease without transforming in base to be weaker for no reason.