Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

SSJG= SSJB in terms of raw strength.

SSB >>> SSG on everything but power consumption.

Goku turned into SSB just when he needed more power

[superfan2024]

SSJG= SSJB in terms of raw strength.

Uh, SSJB is definitely more powerful.

[Marlowe89]

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?

Except he's not?

Dyspo was quite casually dodging Aragney's physical attacks and laser beams and also destroying his tentacles, his only problem in that situation is that more tentacles unsuspectingly approached him from behind. He was just caught off-guard and then physically restrained, which is something we know for a fact that stronger characters aren't immune from at all.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm hoping they explain the re-appearance of SSJG, because something is definitely up with why now it's being used. If Goku knew he could use SSJG at point, why on earth did he not think about to use it at any stage before the tournament? Why did he spam the shit out SSJB after the events of the Resurrection F arc? If we don't get an explanation as to how Goku can use SSJG in the anime before the tournament ends, I'll be really fucking annoyed. And this seriosuly retroactively a hell of a lot Super for me if no good explanation is provided.

This really does seem like something Toriyama specifically wanted to be thrown into the tournament. Maybe we'll get an expliantion when Goku's new form pops up, so there jury is still out. But as of now... fucking hell. Have they royally fumbled the grand return of SSJG, or what? And just to makes things even more confusing, Goku can alternate between SSJB and SSJB, just like what Vegeta pulled off in the manga. Which begs the question... how strong is Goku's base form? Because with what's happened right now, we'll never be able to solve that.

This is exactly what I didn't want happen. For SSJG to just reappear once again with no real rhyme or reason in narrative, when it could appeared so many episodes ago. You fucked up big time, Super.

[emi_b7]

So.. Aragney > Dyspo > Hit. Lol

The end of the episode says otherwise. Dyspo turned into Vegeta 2.0 at the end of his fight against Hit.

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?

Well, there's nothing saying Aragney is a random fodder, he (it?) could be the strongest non Pride Trooper in U11 for all we know. I'm not defending the scene though, it was a terrible way to introduce Dyspo, just saying there's no reason for us to assume that stupid monster is a weakling.

[Loputousu]

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?

He's not?

Dyspo was quite casually dodging Aragney's physical attacks and laser beams and also destroying his tentacles, his only problem in that situation is that more tentacles unsuspectingly approached him from behind. He was just caught off-guard and then physically restrained, which is something we know for a fact that stronger characters aren't immune from at all.

The former (bolded) is true, see Sorbet almost killing SSB Goku, but the latter isn't. The former is only true because when you're off-guard, you bring your ki down to a very weak level, allowing someone very weak to hurt you with an attack.

But when you're restrained, your ki isn't necessarily at a weak level anymore, and if you want to get out by overpowering your opponent, you can do so very easily. Stronger characters are immune to being restrained. Can you imagine Yamcha restraining Golden Frieza or something? This is an equally bad situation.

SSB Goku easily broke out of Toppo's Justice Choke or whatever it was called upon transforming. Base Goku was not strong enough to break out of Nink's choke, but he broke out of it by overpowering him in SSB.

If Dyspo was strong enough to break out of Aragney's arms, he would have done so. As Dyspo is above SSG level, this indicates that Aragney is around SSG level himself, because Dyspo could not bring out enough strength to escape Aragney.

Aragney is obviously random fodder. Toppo defeated him simply by throwing his boss at him.

Maybe it's time we start disregarding content like this in the anime, but I have no idea how to define "like this."

[Zamasu55]

I'm hoping they explain the re-appearance of SSJG, because something is definitely up with why now it's being used. If Goku knew he could use SSJG at point, why on earth did he not think about to use it at any stage before the tournament? Why did he spam the shit out SSJB after the events of the Resurrection F arc? If we don't get an explanation as to how Goku can use SSJG in the anime before the tournament ends, I'll be really fucking annoyed. And this seriosuly retroactively a hell of a lot Super for me if no good explanation is provided.

This really does seem like something Toriyama specifically wanted to be thrown into the tournament. Maybe we'll get an expliantion when Goku's new form pops up, so there jury is still out. But as of now... fucking hell. Have they royally fumbled the grand return of SSJG, or what? And just to makes things even more confusing, Goku can alternate between SSJB and SSJB, just like what Vegeta pulled off in the manga. Which begs the question... how strong is Goku's base form? Because with what's happened right now, we'll never be able to solve that.

This is exactly what I didn't want happen. For SSJG to just reappear once again with no real rhyme or reason in narrative, when it could appeared so many episodes ago. You fucked up big time, Super.

He probably used SsjG because it's faster than Blue, so he could fight better against Dyspo.

[perucho1990]

SSB >>> SSG on everything but power consumption.

Goku turned into SSB just when he needed more power

More like he needed more speed to keep up with Dyspo.

While the Omni-Kings need to watch slowed-down footage to see Dyspo's attack, Vados "somehow" manages to see it. It seems Champa can't.

Looks like Dyspo is faster than the Hakaishins.

[Draconic]

He probably used SsjG because it's faster than Blue, so he could fight better against Dyspo.

It's not. He used it because it's faster than Super Saiyan, but saps less stamina than Blue. He's predicting Dyspo's timing and going Blue to counter with both full power and speed.

[Marlowe89]

But when you're restrained, your ki isn't necessarily at a weak level anymore, and if you want to get out by overpowering your opponent, you can do so very easily.

Well, there's the situation with Raditz and Goku... despite the former being over three times the latter's power level.

I mean, regardless of how you think Super's battle mechanics work, the scene was pretty clear in conveying that Dyspo wasn't having that much trouble with Aragney at all (even showcasing him to be at a distinct advantage) until he was caught off-guard. The writers were looking for a way to show off the teamwork of the Pride Troopers, but I really don't think it was their intention to downplay Dyspo's strength there.

One could even make the argument that Dyspo's strength comes primarily from his great speed and momentum, e.g. The Flash.

[Loputousu]

But when you're restrained, your ki isn't necessarily at a weak level anymore, and if you want to get out by overpowering your opponent, you can do so very easily.

Well, there's the situation with Raditz and Goku... despite the former being over three times the latter's power level.

I mean, regardless of how you think Super's battle mechanics work, the scene was pretty clear in conveying that Dyspo wasn't having that much trouble with Aragney at all (even showcasing him to be at a distinct advantage) until he was caught off-guard. The writers were looking for a way to show off the teamwork of the Pride Troopers, but I really don't think it was their intention to downplay Dyspo's strength there.

One might even make the argument that Dyspo's strength comes primarily from his great speed.

The gap between Raditz and Goku at the time wasn't that great, plus Raditz was an untrained amateur. Even if Aragney is 3x weaker than Dyspo, that still puts him well above Ultimate Gohan level since Dyspo is stronger than SSG Goku.

the scene was pretty clear in conveying that Dyspo wasn't having that much trouble with Aragney at all (even showcasing him to be at a distinct advantage) until he was caught off-guard.

Yes, but the fact that he couldn't break out after being caught is a terrible showing.

[Doctor.]

So did they end up mentioning the words "light-speed" at all?

So.. Aragney > Dyspo > Hit. Lol

The end of the episode says otherwise. Dyspo turned into Vegeta 2.0 at the end of his fight against Hit.

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?

Does Hirudegarn ring a bell?

[Marlowe89]

The gap between Raditz and Goku at the time wasn't that great, plus Raditz was an untrained amateur. Even if Aragney is 3x weaker than Dyspo, that still puts him well above Ultimate Gohan level since Dyspo is stronger than SSG Goku.

I'd say a three times gap is decently large, but that's not really my point -- it could have been larger than that and perhaps Goku still could have been successful. Even if fighters could break free after a certain threshold, there's no clearly defined boundary between "the gap between us is so large that I can break free from this bind" and the converse. Goku took it all the way up to Super Saiyan Blue to stop Nink for instance, although I honestly doubt Nink was nearly that powerful. Weaker characters can restrain stronger ones was my overall contention, and anything beyond that is superfluous to the point I was trying to get across.

Either way, I thought the intent of the Dyspo vs. Aragney scene was perfectly clear, so that's all I'm really going to say on it. I'm not even remotely convinced that it gives us enough information to deduce where Aragney would stand among these fighters.

[Hugo Boss]

So did they end up mentioning the words "light-speed" at all?

Toppo said Dyspo's speed was both greater than sound's and light's.

[Shinda Forever]

So, basically Goku did what Vegeta did in the manga. And it seems Dyspo is stronger than SSG and weaker than Hit when he fights seriously.

Hitto was adapting to Dyspo's speed and improving during the fight. Poor Dyspo isn't nothing compared to Hitto.

[Loputousu]

So did they end up mentioning the words "light-speed" at all?

The end of the episode says otherwise. Dyspo turned into Vegeta 2.0 at the end of his fight against Hit.

Ok, but unless the fight with Aragney is not canon then we have a huge problem on our hands. How is a random fodder above SSG level?

Does Hirudegarn ring a bell?

1. Filler.
2. They were portrayed completely differently. Hirudegarn took a lot more effort to kill and was portrayed as a much greater threat with an entire movie dedicated to him. Aragney was just a random fodder there for 2 minutes to hype up the Pride Troopers a little bit. Aragney got killed when Toppo threw his boss at him, it was pretty effortless.

Weaker characters can restrain stronger ones was my overall contention, and anything beyond that is superfluous to the point I was trying to get across.

I see your point, but your point doesn't solve the problem at all. The problem is how powerful Dyspo and SSG Goku are compared to everyone else. A random piece of crap like Aragney shouldn't be that powerful. Even if Aragney is 5 times weaker than Dyspo, that would still put him probably above SSJ Vegito level (we don't have numbers to go on, but whatever, because the gap between SSG Goku and Buu arc characters is huge). Aragney being stronger than Buu arc characters is ridiculous when a random fodder like him should be Ginyu level at best.

[Doctor.]

1. Filler.

Same company. Toei doesn't care about what's canon, the point is that this has precedent.

2. They were portrayed completely differently. Hirudegarn took a lot more effort to kill and was portrayed as a much greater threat with an entire movie dedicated to him. Aragney was just a random fodder there for 2 minutes to hype up the Pride Troopers a little bit. Aragney got killed when Toppo threw his boss at him, it was pretty effortless.

Yeah, Toppo's stronger than Dyspo, I don't see your point. This is a universe we know nothing about.

[Hugo Boss]

So, basically Goku did what Vegeta did in the manga. And it seems Dyspo is stronger than SSG and weaker than Hit when he fights seriously.

Hitto was adapting to Dyspo's speed and improving during the fight. Poor Dyspo isn't nothing compared to Hitto.

It seemed to me Hit was stepping up his game like Goku usually does, given that he decided to use the techniques he used against Goku in the second minute of the fight.

[Loputousu]

Yeah, Toppo's stronger than Dyspo, I don't see your point. This is a universe we know nothing about.

No, the point is that Aragney was portrayed as trash with the way he was killed.

It's not enough to look at the plain feats but also how a character is portrayed. For example, characters in Bleach who aren't really that strong often got off-paneled or beaten very quickly because the author deemed them not very important. The same thing happened to Aragney.

[RedHeat]

How fast is Dyspo?