Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Legion]

In the new chapter Beerus said that Vegeta can be a candidate God in another universe. This basically confirms that all the Gods are not in the same tier i guess.

Toppo is a candidate God, and is equal/weaker than Goku/Vegeta. So is possible that Beerus>Vermoud?

[JulianStyles]

According to Toshio he's probably below Tien and we all saw how much of a chump Base Gohan made Tien look.

That was a different base Gohan that powered up twice before he bang came out. But just as Beserk Roshi was badly written, episode 90 was just as badly written. Piccolo didnt do much instead of charging up. Base Goku tanked Piccolos most powerful attack. Yet Piccolo was seen on par with SS2 two episodes prior. And a few episodes before that we saw Goku and Gohan fight as SS1 and were even. So how was Base Goku able to tank Piccolos attack? Its just bad writing.

Piccolo wanted to distract Goku so Gohan can finish him off. The attack would have killed Goku in base form if Piccolo wanted the attack to. It was only a training match.

Thats just your mind trying to justify it. The yeild of the attack wasnt less. If it was he wouldnt need that much time to charge it. Why is it ao hard for fans to accept when what they are seeing makes no sense. It should have atleast ringed out base Goku or forced him to transform. What the episode is telling you is that attack from Piccolo was weaker than Krillins generic ki blast that made Goku go SS1 in order to stop sliding out of bounds.

[emperior]

Is Hit slower than sound? If he was faster Dyspo wouldn't have been able to beat his time-skip. Or am I missing something?

[JazzMazz]

Is Hit slower than sound? If he was faster Dyspo wouldn't have been able to beat his time-skip. Or am I missing something?

Dyspo moves faster than light, so I think it would be more appriopriate to say that Hit only moves at light speed(even though I wouldn't say that because the meaning surrounding it is very vague).

[emperior]

Is Hit slower than sound? If he was faster Dyspo wouldn't have been able to beat his time-skip. Or am I missing something?

Dyspo moves faster than light, so I think it would be more appriopriate to say that Hit only moves at light speed(even though I wouldn't say that because the meaning surrounding it is very vague).

Dyspo counters Hit because he can hear his muscles contracting before he time-skips. If Hit was faster than sound, wouldn't he be able to attack Dyspo before he can counter-attack?

- I realized I might be wrong as I'm writing: Dyspo is able to counter Hit because the muscles contract before the time-skip, so Dyspo who is FTL uses his speed augmenting technique to hit Hit as he's time-skipping.

[Helios518]

Is Hit slower than sound? If he was faster Dyspo wouldn't have been able to beat his time-skip. Or am I missing something?

Dyspo moves faster than light, so I think it would be more appriopriate to say that Hit only moves at light speed(even though I wouldn't say that because the meaning surrounding it is very vague).

Dyspo counters Hit because he can hear his muscles contracting before he time-skips. If Hit was faster than sound, wouldn't he be able to attack Dyspo before he can counter-attack?

- I realized I might be wrong as I'm writing: Dyspo is able to counter Hit because the muscles contract before the time-skip, so Dyspo who is FTL uses his speed augmenting technique to hit Hit as he's time-skipping.

It's just the writers not caring about physics (this is a common thing in fiction). We've seen characters in DB in space talk to each other and we've also seen Whis, Beerus, Champa, & Vados travel at speeds MFTL speeds but still talk to each other just fine when going at those speed. Besides, there's more feats that put even the original DB level characters past the speed of sound.

[LowRyder2005]

That was a different base Gohan that powered up twice before he bang came out. But just as Beserk Roshi was badly written, episode 90 was just as badly written. Piccolo didnt do much instead of charging up. Base Goku tanked Piccolos most powerful attack. Yet Piccolo was seen on par with SS2 two episodes prior. And a few episodes before that we saw Goku and Gohan fight as SS1 and were even. So how was Base Goku able to tank Piccolos attack? Its just bad writing.

Piccolo wanted to distract Goku so Gohan can finish him off. The attack would have killed Goku in base form if Piccolo wanted the attack to. It was only a training match.

Thats just your mind trying to justify it. The yeild of the attack wasnt less. If it was he wouldnt need that much time to charge it. Why is it ao hard for fans to accept when what they are seeing makes no sense. It should have atleast ringed out base Goku or forced him to transform. What the episode is telling you is that attack from Piccolo was weaker than Krillins generic ki blast that made Goku go SS1 in order to stop sliding out of bounds.

While it's more than a bit ambiguous, they do state the aim was to simulate a battle and try teamwork tactics together, not to fight each other with intent to kill; Tien makes a point about how it would be silly to injure each other right before the tournament, and it's not like anyone disagrees with him. What we do know is also that Gohan's Super Saiyan was already proven superior to Goku's base and Gohan's Super Saiyan couldn't even scratch a Piccolo who was at best half-serious. Plus, the only all-out fight in that episode was, admittedly, between Goku and Gohan.

When you factor everything together, there are technically more reasons to think the blast in question shouldn't have contained Piccolo's full power than the contrary. Piccolo's charging it up, in turn, should have been a faithful simulation of the real charging time (this goes somewhat unmentioned, but it's really a natural consequence if the purpose is to recreate the same conditions in a real battle scenario). The fact the attack is coincidentially enough to just make Goku shiver without leaving a scratch on him sounds a little too convenient, in that regard.

The hypothesis of plain bad writing is pretty valid, still, and at the very least Piccolo's anti-feat is rather suspect and not super-easy to reconcile, like you said.

[larzooma]

Piccolo wanted to distract Goku so Gohan can finish him off. The attack would have killed Goku in base form if Piccolo wanted the attack to. It was only a training match.

Thats just your mind trying to justify it. The yeild of the attack wasnt less. If it was he wouldnt need that much time to charge it. Why is it ao hard for fans to accept when what they are seeing makes no sense. It should have atleast ringed out base Goku or forced him to transform. What the episode is telling you is that attack from Piccolo was weaker than Krillins generic ki blast that made Goku go SS1 in order to stop sliding out of bounds.

While it's more than a bit ambiguous, they do state the aim was to simulate a battle and try teamwork tactics together, not to fight each other with intent to kill; Tien makes a point about how it would be silly to injure each other right before the tournament, and it's not like anyone disagrees with him. What we do know is also that Gohan's Super Saiyan was already proven superior to Goku's base and Gohan's Super Saiyan couldn't even scratch a Piccolo who was at best half-serious. Plus, the only all-out fight in that episode was, admittedly, between Goku and Gohan.

When you factor everything together, there are technically more reasons to think the blast in question shouldn't have contained Piccolo's full power than the contrary. Piccolo's charging it up, in turn, should have been a faithful simulation of the real charging time (this goes somewhat unmentioned, but it's really a natural consequence if the purpose is to recreate the same conditions in a real battle scenario). The fact the attack is coincidentially enough to just make Goku shiver without leaving a scratch on him sounds a little too convenient, in that regard.

The hypothesis of plain bad writing is pretty valid, still, and at the very least Piccolo's anti-feat is rather suspect and not super-easy to reconcile, like you said.

The attack does little to indicate Piccolo's power. The move was intended to test one of the team attacks they worked on while training. The initial attack by Piccolo was meant to ring out anyone weaker than the blast, while distracting fighter's powerful enough to avoid being pushed off by the blast to allow Gohan to knock them off. There's little indication Piccolo put a lot of energy into the attack, other than the time spent charging Ki, which doesn't say much given every attack requires varying level of power to accomplish a variety of outcomes. The particular attack Piccolo uses isn't meant to cause a significant amount of directed damage, rather the purpose is to extend a good amount of energy over a wide area to push back fighter's in the blast. You can argue it requires a decent amount of stored energy to cause a sufficient enough blast to accomplish it's purpose. Honestly, you can't gauge much about the strength of the attack or the fighter simply off of the time shown charging the attack, and I don't think it's a case of bad writing given the type of battle and the purpose of the attack.

[Hugo Boss]

Not to mention the punch Goku blocked from Gohan did way more collateral damage than Piccolo's shockwave, which means Gohan was the most serious between the four there. In contrast, the Gohan we saw in the training sessions was having difficulty to enter in his serious mode. That's part of the reason I believe Piccolo did so well against him, he even pointed that a few times.

[Marlowe89]

This basically confirms that all the Gods are not in the same tier i guess.

The anime did sort of corroborate the same thing when Golden Frieza was somewhat likened to Sidra and also when Toppo, who was called a GoD candidate himself, stated that he wasn't completely confident that he would have won against Goku. The difference is that the manga directly addresses the fact that Goku and Vegeta are currently powerful enough to potentially tango with the weaker Gods of Destruction whereas the anime merely implies it through more indirect means (at least as far as I'm aware, unless there was some explicit dialogue in the anime that I missed).

I feel like this is going to be a recurring element of Super as a franchise, by the way, in which the manga acts as a sort of authority in clarifying where these characters all stand amongst each other in terms of the "bigger picture" for power-scaling as it were. I don't know if it means that Toyotaro is simply better equipped to provide this kind of clarity or if Toei just prefers to be more subtle in regards to what they convey, but that's definitely the impression I'm getting thus far.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Yeah, if Beerus is stronger than MSSB Goku and MSSB Vegeta, who took on Merged Zamasu, then it should go: Beerus > SSB Vegito > Merged Zamasu ~=~ MSSB Goku ~=~ MSSB Vegeta

In the anime's case it would be: Beerus > SSB Vegito > Merged Zamasu ~=~ SSB KK Goku > SSB Vegeta

[Bullza]

I'd say Super Saiyan Blue Vegito was stronger than Beerus if anything. Toyotaro said he wasn't sure who was stronger which makes them seem as though they're close together but then Supreme Kai said that maybe Vegito was stronger. So he could be a tad infront.

[Legion]

Shin didn't actually finished his sentence and it was left up to interpretation. And is not reliable at all. In BoG arc was surprised that Beerus holding back with Goku. Shin never seen Beerus at full strength.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Hmmmmm, does anyone have any idea how strong Kunsi was in Episode 104? I put him at SSGod Tier.

[LowRyder2005]

I'd say Super Saiyan Blue Vegito was stronger than Beerus if anything. Toyotaro said he wasn't sure who was stronger which makes them seem as though they're close together but then Supreme Kai said that maybe Vegito was stronger. So he could be a tad infront.

Yeah, in-universe reasoning about Kaioshin using "maybe" or him being "unreliable" looks more than a tad captious to me.
Does anyone know about Chekhov's gun? The author had Kaioshin saying it for a reason, and we're arguing the scene was ultimately the exact contrary of what the aforementioned author implied. I mean, at this point, the reader is clearly supposed to lean decisively towards the idea that Vegito is stronger than Beerus.

Off-the-record? Yes. Did Toyotaro avoid to give explicit confirmation? Yes, but here's a bold argument: is it really that hard to see it as any different that avoid to set it in stone, in case of different directions, or ideas, or an advancement of the plot that didn't depend entirely on him? It's still something that has a possibility of happening in the future, though. I don't think it makes much sense to talk as if Beerus being stronger than the fusions has been bolstered again.

I also don't really get what's holding those few who basically play devil's advocate for Kaioshin's statement using in-universe arguments: other than being really strange from an out-of-universe perspective, we already knew that the Potaras were a gigantic power-up (which could well be in the order of dozens or even hundreds of times), and in the latest chapter I doubt that MSSB is really portrayed to be many, many dozens or many hundreds of times weaker then manga!Beerus. They are already stated to be at the level of the weaker Hakaishin, it doesn't seem that unfathomable to believe Beerus could be stronger but not astronomically so.

Hmmmmm, does anyone have any idea how strong Kunsi was in Episode 104? I put him at SSGod Tier.

Good question. Who knows? I mean, you see Roshi casually escaping his ki blasts as if their speed wouldn't faze him, but then you see him restraining Hit, surviving a punch from Blue Goku and apparently making Hit fear he could be damaged if he steps on one of his mines.
Rationally, I don't really think he's really intended to be a power-house among the contestants at all, unlike Dyspo, and I doubt they wanted to make him stronger than Kahseral (who looks to be pretty high-ranking among the Troopers), a guy who all in all couldn't k.o. #18 and easily dispose of Super Saiyan Caulifla and Super Saiyan Kale.
I have him in the low billions (but to be honest, I feel like I could have him in the low millions without changing his role), with his feats generally being a product of questionable writing. In-universe, I think Dyspo covering for him in battle and Goku keeping SSB in his minefield for sureness - similar to the use of SSB against the Trio de Danger - simply made him look like a million bucks in the latest episode.

[ekrolo2]

There must be a big gap between lower end GoDs and Beerus if Completed Blue Goku & Vegeta can tango with them but Blue Vegetto is only potentially strong enough to fight Beerus.

[BlueBasilisk]

I also don't really get what's holding those few who basically play devil's advocate for Kaioshin's statement using in-universe arguments: other than being really strange from an out-of-universe perspective, we already knew that the Potaras were a gigantic power-up (which could well be in the order of dozens or even hundreds of times)

I know Base Vegito didn't fight Buu in the manga, but didn't Old Kai say they wouldn't need Super Saiyan to beat Buuhan? If the Daizenshuu numbers are good for anything, that would indicate Base Vegito is well beyond 400x base Goku. Beerus beeing that far above Goku and Vegeta still doesn't seem wholly unreasonable.

[Whatever]

I also don't really get what's holding those few who basically play devil's advocate for Kaioshin's statement using in-universe arguments: other than being really strange from an out-of-universe perspective, we already knew that the Potaras were a gigantic power-up (which could well be in the order of dozens or even hundreds of times)

I know Base Vegito didn't fight Buu in the manga, but didn't Old Kai say they wouldn't need Super Saiyan to beat Buuhan? If the Daizenshuu numbers are good for anything, that would indicate Base Vegito is well beyond 400x base Goku. Beerus beeing that far above Goku and Vegeta still doesn't seem wholly unreasonable.

When the Old kai said that,Super buu was Buutenks and the plan was for Goku to fuse with Gohan.

[BlueBasilisk]

I also don't really get what's holding those few who basically play devil's advocate for Kaioshin's statement using in-universe arguments: other than being really strange from an out-of-universe perspective, we already knew that the Potaras were a gigantic power-up (which could well be in the order of dozens or even hundreds of times)

I know Base Vegito didn't fight Buu in the manga, but didn't Old Kai say they wouldn't need Super Saiyan to beat Buuhan? If the Daizenshuu numbers are good for anything, that would indicate Base Vegito is well beyond 400x base Goku. Beerus beeing that far above Goku and Vegeta still doesn't seem wholly unreasonable.

When the Old kai said that,Super buu was Buutenks and the plan was for Goku to fuse with Gohan.

Thanks! That's what I was thinking of. All those Old Kai scenes blend together in my memory.

[LowRyder2005]

I know Base Vegito didn't fight Buu in the manga, but didn't Old Kai say they wouldn't need Super Saiyan to beat Buuhan? If the Daizenshuu numbers are good for anything, that would indicate Base Vegito is well beyond 400x base Goku. Beerus beeing that far above Goku and Vegeta still doesn't seem wholly unreasonable.

When the Old kai said that,Super buu was Buutenks and the plan was for Goku to fuse with Gohan.

Thanks! That's what I was thinking of. All those Old Kai scenes blend together in my memory.

Yup, as the the other user pointed out, the idea at that point was for Goku to fuse with Gohan. The latter might have be what made Super Saiyan entirely unnecessary, since he didn't need to turn into one either to access his full power by default.

Regarding Vegito... I'll state the obvious: mileage widely varies on where his base form stands in both anime and manga. There's plenty of room to make his base form relative to Buuhan, but Buuhan's boasts about how he's supposedly mucking around with Vegito, and conservatives esteems in general, are usually enough to make some folks question the nature of base Vegito's feats. Personally, I do think the anime team really intended for him to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan at that point, but when you combine this with the more overaching notions in the series (i.e. hypothetical multipliers) and his subsequent feats (vs. Zamas) such a gargantuan jump tends not to really resonate well within the bigger scope of the franchise.

Regarding the possibility of Beerus being literally hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku/ Vegeta boding well with what we've been shown, I'm a little conflicted. I think a fairer assessment, combining the anime's and the manga's feats and reactions, is that he should possess at most a dozen of times or so the power of Super Saiyan Blue Goku, with the gap ever-so-slightly thinning out in each arc. In short, KK * 10 + Blue is enough to get pretty darn close. Everything's still hazy enough (as usual) that we're doing nothing more than comparing everyone's impressions here, so I have no intention to promote my reasoning as anything more than those.