Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[avasatu]

In order to truly power scale this show, you have to find feats of power comparing two people where the narrative is also not pushing technique and/or experience and/or intelligence over raw strength. And there aren't a lot of those.

[LowRyder2005]

In order to truly power scale this show, you have to find feats of power comparing two people where the narrative is also not pushing technique and/or experience and/or intelligence over raw strength. And there aren't a lot of those.

More like "when the narrative is not outright contradicting itself", because - avoiding euphemisms - that's what it really is.

Like Goku saying he he doesn't feel any less powerful than when he had "the power of a god" in Super Saiyan mode in BOG and, 70 episodes and many training sessions later, everyone goes "Lo and behold! He has the power of a God, wowzers!"... only when Goku turns Blue and after seeing the full might of his Super Saiyan at work.
Or base Vegeta destroying SS3 Gotenks and being equal to Goku when the same Goku apparently needs to transform to face a, supposedly puny, Super Saiyan Gohan -- which is something not everyone can easily factor in, apparently.

[Marlowe89]

Like Goku saying he he doesn't feel any less powerful than when he had "the power of a god" in Super Saiyan mode in BOG and, 70 episodes and many training sessions later, everyone goes "Lo and behold! He has the power of a God, wowzers!"... only when Goku turns Blue and after seeing the full might of his Super Saiyan at work.
Or base Vegeta destroying SS3 Gotenks and being equal to Goku when the same Goku apparently needs to transform to face a, supposedly puny, Super Saiyan Gohan -- which is something not everyone can easily factor in, apparently.

Let's not forget base Vegeta struggling to fight Hop one-on-one, who was confirmed to be weaker than Basil (the Trio De Dangers were said to be the strongest in their universe) who in turn was stomped by Majin Buu... yet, somehow, we're expected to believe he can just effortlessly no-sell attacks from Gotenks if he really, really, for-reals-this-time-guys "wanted to".

If anything's an outlier in the current narrative, it's definitely the Copy Vegeta arc.

[ZombieVito]

Like Goku saying he he doesn't feel any less powerful than when he had "the power of a god" in Super Saiyan mode in BOG and, 70 episodes and many training sessions later, everyone goes "Lo and behold! He has the power of a God, wowzers!"... only when Goku turns Blue and after seeing the full might of his Super Saiyan at work.
Or base Vegeta destroying SS3 Gotenks and being equal to Goku when the same Goku apparently needs to transform to face a, supposedly puny, Super Saiyan Gohan -- which is something not everyone can easily factor in, apparently.

Let's not forget base Vegeta struggling to fight Hop one-on-one, who was confirmed to be weaker than Basil (the Trio De Dangers were said to be the strongest in their universe) who in turn was stomped by Majin Buu... yet, somehow, we're expected to believe he can just effortlessly no-sell attacks from Gotenks if he really, really, for-reals-this-time-guys "wanted to".

If anything's an outlier in the current narrative, it's definitely the Copy Vegeta arc.

Not really.

Goku vs Monaka Beerus.
Goku vs Slim Boo.
Goku vs Piccolo's shockwave.
Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza's speed.
Goku surviving the Haikai ball.

They all contradict a weak base Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The biggest thing of note is that Goku was even with base Freeza back in Resurrection of F, when the old rules of power-scaling were more specifically utilized comapred to the laxer and more conceptual generalities right now.

No obvious retcons have occurred since then, and the characterization between the two characters as of current suggests that they're relative equals in their base and god-level forms.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, guys I have read your insteresting exchange of thoughts about power scaling in series, and I decided(once again) to join in and share my input about this matter.
INTRO:
First I believe that if they(toei animators) being asked how it is possible(insert random battle which was not consistent power wise), they would respond fast that They finally decided to make characters develop and bring some more realistic aspects of world like someone who is really strong is often overconfident and don't bother to suprise enemy instead of taking easy and the most lazy approach(attack in linear way). Of course there are always expections from rules(warriors who had to work for their power while not forgetting abilities and tactics which saved them's asses before). It is just pure progress of changing world and how shounen kind of anime presents.
This could be excusse for Toryiama or Toei to bring all cast back to making impact and mattering for various reasons( relying on seasoned older fans who will be brought back by nostalgia, while making these characters interesting to new fans who just got in series). This could be also excusse to show that now strategy and skills close the gap between characters, like it was in dbz(20-30%) gap.

Main Message:
I can see three ways they can explain why the current power stands of characters seems to differ mainly from what was estabilished:

1. Retcon theory or everyone holding back when plot need it
2. Everyone getting stronger with short or no training just because plot demand for it
3. False ssg theory, let me know if you are interested

anyway I believe one of these approaches is correct + Strategy and skills along with it mastery and varations of techniques being game changer in battle like:

dbz - 20-30% gap is enough to beat up opponent
dbs - at least five times stronger if opponent is better fighter(skills, strategy, techniques, experience)

[LowRyder2005]

Like Goku saying he he doesn't feel any less powerful than when he had "the power of a god" in Super Saiyan mode in BOG and, 70 episodes and many training sessions later, everyone goes "Lo and behold! He has the power of a God, wowzers!"... only when Goku turns Blue and after seeing the full might of his Super Saiyan at work.
Or base Vegeta destroying SS3 Gotenks and being equal to Goku when the same Goku apparently needs to transform to face a, supposedly puny, Super Saiyan Gohan -- which is something not everyone can easily factor in, apparently.

Let's not forget base Vegeta struggling to fight Hop one-on-one, who was confirmed to be weaker than Basil (the Trio De Dangers were said to be the strongest in their universe) who in turn was stomped by Majin Buu... yet, somehow, we're expected to believe he can just effortlessly no-sell attacks from Gotenks if he really, really, for-reals-this-time-guys "wanted to".

If anything's an outlier in the current narrative, it's definitely the Copy Vegeta arc.

Not really.

Goku vs Monaka Beerus.
Goku vs Slim Boo.
Goku vs Piccolo's shockwave.
Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza's speed.
Goku surviving the Haikai ball.

They all contradict a weak base Goku.

Do I sound like my usual asshat self when I say I can't comprehend what's the biggest issue in reconciling, if not all, almost all of this stuff? Bar Monaka/Beerus, which is at least partially supposed to be a gag fight, you have:

- A friendly spar between someone who wouldn't really hurt Goku (and vice versa), and in which Goku gets the short end of the stick.
- A mock fight in which the guys are testing tactics and some emphasis is placed on "guys, let's make sure we do not hurt each other before the tournament starts".
- Three seconds in which Golden Freeza and Goku randomly teleport themselves around before punching each other, with Goku immediately turning Blue after aforementioned three seconds to charge the punch (why not count Hit vs. Goku at this point? And why should Freeza go at full speed against base Goku when he's overall equal to Blue already?).
- Something unrelated to fights entirely.

vs. stuff in which Goku is either supposed to either behave incomprehensibly when the stakes are high or dick around when has no real reason to dick around. As in: "well, he could one shot this guy who's a thousandth of his power level, but doesn't"; "he raises his base power from 1 to 50 and then suppresses himself to a 0.01 for fun and lulz".
Even assuming Monaka vs. Goku fits with the picture, the only other thing even remotely similar, like Marlowe89 reasonably said, is Vegeta vs. Gotenks -- which is supposed to be a serious fight with something at stake, much like Vegeta vs. Hop, Goku vs. Basil, Goku vs. Tupper, etcetera, all fights in which the contenders are supposed to be struggling (and the in UT case they only get out of the pickle because they go Super Saiyan, not because they power up "a little" in base like they would be supposed to).

[avasatu]

Gotenks is weaker than he was. Surviving a hakai ball of that magnitude didn't take as much power as you thought. You just have to get creative. Goku is around Fat Buu level.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's clear that there are fundamental differences between the way we all interpret what the show is giving us.

Everyon thinks that their own way is the right way, and that everyone else is flawed somehow.

No matter how many justifications and theories we come up with, unless the show or the showrunners completely clarify it themselves, we're left just speculating. So what do you guys suppose it'll take to put an end to the more obsessive debates and disagreements regarding power-scaling, the importance of power, etc.? And what do you guys think we'll ACTUALLY get?

For example, a guidebook with power rankings is probably more feasible than the show itself explicitly confirming anything beyond clear power narratives like how Jiren is stronger than everyone else, even in their god forms. What do you guys want, and what do you expect?

I expect that the show will continue the current trend of playing up specific skills, abilities, etc., and only loosely apply power like when a character transforms to clearly identify an increase in power.

I want the show to have some offhand comments in-show about how having a higher power level doesn't mean you can instantly knock out someone or tank their hits.

[Doctor.]

Goku vs Monaka Beerus.

A Beerus hindered by his costume. Not to mention that base Goku is nowhere near Beerus anyway, so both a "normal" base and a ">SS3 Gotenks" base would fare about as well: they're both ants. If Beerus is suppressing himself to one base, he can suppress himself to the other.

This is part of the Copy-Vegeta arc, anyway.

Goku vs Slim Boo.

Goku lost and all signs point to Boo not taking the match seriously.

Goku vs Piccolo's shockwave.

As pointed out before, it was a friendly spar and the purpose of the attack was to bait out Goku for Gohan's blow. In the same fight, base Goku and Gohan are shown as equals when just one or two episodes before, SS2 Gohan got his ass kicked by Piccolo. Are we to believe that base Goku = Gohan > Piccolo > SS2 Gohan two episodes earlier?

Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza's speed.

This shouldn't even matter because Golden Freeza is even with Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Both a "normal" base and a ">SS3 Gotenks" base are absolute fodder to Freeza, so this, like the Monaka Beerus feat, shouldn't be used to scale Goku. If Goku can keep up with Freeza's speed in one base/Freeza can suppress himself to one base, then the same can happen with the other.

Goku surviving the Haikai ball.

Impossible to qualify considering we have no idea how any other character besides Golden Freeza, who only exerted himself mildly, would handle it.

They all contradict a weak base Goku.

They all contradict a weak base Goku about as much as Vegeta fighting Kid Boo in base in the Boo arc contradicts the notion that he's not absolute fodder to the character he's fighting with.

[BlueBasilisk]

As far as we know it could also mean Tupper stops emitting light when he stops increasing his weight, just saying.

I don't think really your idea is that unreasonable, to be honest, but it would still bring forth some extra questionable writing: why would Tupper let himself be eliminated?
Let's admit he lowered his weight to actively attack the duo of Goku and #18, it can make sense. Then, what exactly would have stopped him from using the same weight which would easily crush #18, since it can crush the overwhelmingly stronger base Goku? If not when he jumps on her because, let's say, he's careless, when she lifts him and she's about to eliminate him? Is it supposed to be CIS on Tupper's part or something else?

Also, do note that the real cause of Tupper's elimination is that the super durable Kachi Katchin breaks right after he steps on the edge of the arena; the implication obviously being that Tupper is still weighing an awful lot (for comparison purposes, the Kachi Katchin started breaking long after Goku couldn't move with Tupper on his shoulders).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jna3UQoCik

Just taking a shot in the dark, I'd guess that Tupper didn't boost his weight while attacking 18 because he needed Zoiray to thow him for their combo attack and as you said, he's already pretty darn heavy. Plus he can't sense how strong 18 is but you would imagine hitting someone with a very heavy object at that speed would mess them up pretty bad.

As for why he let himself get eliminated, I chalked that up to Plot Induced Stupidity like Lilibeu forgetting to fly. He could have turned back to normal or used a ki blast to boost himself back onto the stage like Krillin did. Sadly a lot of these characters are fighting like amateurs.

That Kachi Katchin really isn't living up to its desription, is it? Not long before that Caulifla suplexed Napapa with enough force to break off a pretty big chunk of it and it didn't seem like a particularly powerful blow.

[Doctor.]

For example, a guidebook with power rankings is probably more feasible than the show itself explicitly confirming anything beyond clear power narratives like how Jiren is stronger than everyone else, even in their god forms. What do you guys want, and what do you expect?

They could make our jobs easier by publishing a guidebook once the arc is done listing all of the ToP contestants from strongest to weakest. They don't even have to list alternate forms, just list everyone off in their strongest forms. We can fill in the blanks by taking a look at their performance during the tournament and see how they compare with the other characters in the list.

[Marlowe89]

Both a "normal" base and a ">SS3 Gotenks" base are absolute fodder to Freeza, so this, like the Monaka Beerus feat, shouldn't be used to scale Goku. If Goku can keep up with Freeza's speed in one base/Freeza can suppress himself to one base, then the same can happen with the other.

This is another point I've been trying to get across, seemingly to no avail. It's a verified fact that the difference between base Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Goku is absolutely fucking huge, obviously characters like Beerus and Jiren are going to be heavily suppressing themselves by an utterly ridiculous amount of power regardless of however strong people imagine base Goku to be. The whole line of reasoning is completely irrelevant. That opening sequence? Seriously doesn't mean shit.

Half of these so-called "counter-examples" I'm seeing aren't even related to actual fights and reek of subconscious validation work. None of them are really that explicit, all of them fall apart under scrutiny, and Gotenks, who is actually the main point of contention for comparison's sake, doesn't have a single thing to do with them.

[pacz360]

Gotenks is weaker than he was. Surviving a hakai ball of that magnitude didn't take as much power as you thought. You just have to get creative. Goku is around Fat Buu level.

Sorry but no your gonna have to prove gotenks gotten weaker than he was at the buu saga cause nothing indicates that gotenks is weaker

[pacz360]

Goku vs Monaka Beerus.

A Beerus hindered by his costume. Not to mention that base Goku is nowhere near Beerus anyway, so both a "normal" base and a ">SS3 Gotenks" base would fare about as well: they're both ants. If Beerus is suppressing himself to one base, he can suppress himself to the other.

This is part of the Copy-Vegeta arc, anyway.

Goku vs Slim Boo.

Goku lost and all signs point to Boo not taking the match seriously.

Goku vs Piccolo's shockwave.

As pointed out before, it was a friendly spar and the purpose of the attack was to bait out Goku for Gohan's blow. In the same fight, base Goku and Gohan are shown as equals when just one or two episodes before, SS2 Gohan got his ass kicked by Piccolo. Are we to believe that base Goku = Gohan > Piccolo > SS2 Gohan two episodes earlier?

Goku keeping up with Golden Freeza's speed.

This shouldn't even matter because Golden Freeza is even with Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Both a "normal" base and a ">SS3 Gotenks" base are absolute fodder to Freeza, so this, like the Monaka Beerus feat, shouldn't be used to scale Goku. If Goku can keep up with Freeza's speed in one base/Freeza can suppress himself to one base, then the same can happen with the other.

Goku surviving the Haikai ball.

Impossible to qualify considering we have no idea how any other character besides Golden Freeza, who only exerted himself mildly, would handle it.

They all contradict a weak base Goku.

They all contradict a weak base Goku about as much as Vegeta fighting Kid Boo in base in the Boo arc contradicts the notion that he's not absolute fodder to the character he's fighting with.

Copy vegeta was reference in the black arc so no
Your ignoring whis feeling the need to intervene in their fight while bog ssj3 goku wasn't worth it
Goku traded blows with slim buu on even grounds it wasn't until slim buu caught goku off guard with his strategy and pushed him for a ring out

[Doctor.]

Copy vegeta was reference in the black arc so no

And, so what? That doesn't mean that a silent retcon couldn't have happened.

Your ignoring whis feeling the need to intervene in their fight while bog ssj3 goku wasn't worth it

Yes, because a hindered Beerus, who was getting excited, and Goku were fighting evenly. In BoG, SS3 Goku was getting absolutely destroyed by a Beerus in complete control of his actions. Of course Whis didn't have to stop Beerus there, Beerus was in full control of how much power he wanted to exert.

Goku traded blows with slim buu on even grounds it wasn't until slim buu caught goku off guard with his strategy and pushed him for a ring out

All I saw was a friendly spar between Goku and Boo. All they did was exchange a few blows (in which Boo got the final and only clear punch in), then Boo threw some Ki blasts and defeated Goku without a sweat. Boo, a character who is known to not take things seriously and likes to toy with his opponents, easily defeated Goku. Hardly proof of anything. That's like saying that Ganos and Goku are comparable fighters because Ganos was able to block Goku's hits before getting blown away.

The excuse that Goku holds back gets thrown quite often to justify his super-strong base but the same argument can't be applied to Boo, a character who is known to hold back even MORE? Utterly ridiculous.

[pacz360]

Copy vegeta was reference in the black arc so no

And, so what? That doesn't mean that a silent retcon couldn't have happened.

Your ignoring whis feeling the need to intervene in their fight while bog ssj3 goku wasn't worth it

Yes, because a hindered Beerus, who was getting excited, and Goku were fighting evenly. In BoG, SS3 Goku was getting absolutely destroyed by a Beerus in complete control of his actions. Of course Whis didn't have to stop Beerus there, Beerus was in full control of how much power he wanted to exert.

Goku traded blows with slim buu on even grounds it wasn't until slim buu caught goku off guard with his strategy and pushed him for a ring out

All I saw was a friendly spar between Goku and Boo. All they did was exchange a few blows (in which Boo got the final and only clear punch in), then Boo threw some Ki blasts and defeated Goku without a sweat. Boo, a character who is known to not take things seriously and likes to toy with his opponents, easily defeated Goku. Hardly proof of anything. That's like saying that Ganos and Goku are comparable fighters because Ganos was able to block Goku's hits before getting blown away.

The excuse that Goku holds back gets thrown quite often to justify his super-strong base but the same argument can't be applied to Boo, a character who is known to hold back even MORE? Utterly ridiculous.

Rectons rectons rectons.... Jesus christ how ridiculous that word been thrown nowadays
Base goku trading blows with base copy vegeta that stomped ssj3 gotenks is there to show you how strong base goku is no amount of head canon and Silent rectons theory crap is changing it
If it was rectons it would've been referenced in the show n
Beerus wasn't hindered to the point it crippled him from fighting.
Whis felt the need to intervene unlike before where ssj3 goku couldn't even entertain beerus base goku performed much better than his bog counterpart
Goku shouldn't be able to trade blows with buu if his base was back to buu saga levels and goku came out fighting buu no worse for wear and slight pain at best fighting slim buu

[Loputousu]

Can't wait to see what will happen to this topic if we see Base Goku vs Jiren straight out of the OP.

It would mean absolutely nothing because Jiren supposedly is above Super Saiyan Blue, and if he can suppress himself to >SS3 Gotenks levels to fight evenly with Goku, then surely he can also suppress himself to Boo arc base levels.

Um, what? Jiren doesn't sandbag and has no reason to hold back against Goku.

[pacz360]

There's evidence for both sides, but none of those feats prove that Goku's stronger than SS3 Gotenks. There's a long way to go from tanking Piccolo's attack to beating Gotenks.



And Goku wouldn't have fun if he was suppressing himself so much. Why would he turn Super Saiyan only to suppress himself even MORE? He'd stay in base form and fight Gohan's Super Saiyan form for a more even fight. Your only argument here is an out-of-universe one, the crew thought that a Super Saiyan duel would look cool. There's no in-universe explanation, Goku may have been going easy but he wouldn't have transformed if Gohan and him weren't comparable.



And you're ignoring the fact that Kuririn still managed to smack Goku and Gohan around. He wouldn't have done that if his power wasn't comparable to theirs. Do you see Saiyan arc Kuririn pushing Freeza around because he's a "smart fighter with different strategies"? No. Every punch or Ki blast he'd throw would be effortlessly tanked. Kuririn's strategies were only effective because his power was already comparable to his opponents. He was weaker but not by a ton.

The narrative that you're (and everyone else, in an effort to *cough* "downplay") ignoring is that Kuririn FORCED Goku to turn Super Saiyan. If that isn't obvious, I don't know what is.



You're pretty much asking us to throw away everything we know about Dragon Ball to justify DBS' awful consistency.

Surviving sidra energy ball that had golden freeza panting to compress alone shits on anything from buu saga high tiers

A fine contention. May I ask where your relation on how the aforementioned "destructive energy ball" factors into unequivocally determining one's power level is for us mortals? There might be enough for a PhD in fictional science.

Sure let's say goku base us around buu saga levels
Him surviving sidra energy ball of destruction the same energy ball that had golden freeza struggling to compress and had panting shouldn't have happened and should've been instant killed the moment it hit him
Yet base goku survive it long enough for beerus to come and blow it away.

[GigaDrill]

what's the point of trying to apply consistency if you're just going to throw in convenient retcons whenever it benefits your argument