Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Piccolo also easily blocked Frost's hits with one hand despite clearly being weaker than him. Again, blocking hits reduces damage. Only the monstrously more powerful Jiren could do significant damage to Hit even when he was solidly blocking. As well, Freeza was constantly backing up as he was blocking Cabba's hits, a noted martial arts technique for reducing the impact of blows, something even Piccolo did against Frost. Thus, I don't factor in that bout of blocking, much like you don't factor in Golden Freeza tanking SS2 Cabba's blast.

Frost was very tired and Piccolo never landed a clean blow on him the same way Freeza did with Cabba. Freeza threw him against a wall and held up his face; Cabba could only break free by transforming.

Nice you mention Piccolo, by the way, considering he was portrayed as above base Goku and base Vegeta in the U6 arc considering Vegeta decided to go SS to take care of Frost.

As well, we have past precedence regarding the "stronger as a whole VS. in a form". What was noted about Goku and Gohan after they came out of the Room of Spirit & Time was that they didn't have the intensity of Super Saiyan going on despite clearly being in the form. However, it's relatively clear that, even after merely removing the drain of SS and not explicitly powering up the form itself, Goku and Gohan were the strongest Z-Warriors around. Although people still argue to this day that FPSS has a different multiplier, there's plenty of evidence that goes against this notion. I think it applies pretty well here, because Freeza didn't display his true power until he unveiled his True Golden Evolution, much like how we didn't realize just how strong FPSS Goku was until he fought Perfect Cell.

I don't know what you're talking about. The Cell Games clearly imply that it was the Super Saiyan form/multiplier itself that was improved. The base form doesn't factor into the equation at all.

We have ample proof of multipliers getting bigger. Look at the manga with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

Freeza did get stronger, it was stated in 95. True Golden Freeza isn’t just Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza without stamina issues, the training he did in hell made him stronger overall.

So TOP Freeza > Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza.

No retcon happened. Unless you thing Goku only just now caught up to the power of Resurrection ‘F’ Golden Freeza.

Golden Freeza =/= Final Form Freeza. Improving Golden Freeza and its power doesn't mean the effects have to necessarily reflect on his true form.

Base on what exactly? Almost every transformation in this series is a multiplier of base form.

Unless you have some information I missed, you can’t claim something was retcon when it was never said or implied that only ‘Golden Freeza’ power went up and not base form Freeza.

[Doctor.]

Base on what exactly? Almost every transformation in this series is a multiplier of base form.

Unless you have some information I missed, you can’t claim something was retcon when it was never said or implied that only ‘Golden Freeza’ power went up and not base form Freeza.

And almost every multiplier in this series can be improved or modified separately. We have evidence of this when it comes to Super Saiyan (Cell Games/Vegeta and Cabba), Super Saiyan 2 (Trunks), Super Saiyan God (Toriyama's own word) and Super Saiyan Blue (Goku Black).

Goku never noted an increase of true form Freeza's power, only when Golden Freeza powered-up.

[supercat]

Piccolo also easily blocked Frost's hits with one hand despite clearly being weaker than him. Again, blocking hits reduces damage. Only the monstrously more powerful Jiren could do significant damage to Hit even when he was solidly blocking. As well, Freeza was constantly backing up as he was blocking Cabba's hits, a noted martial arts technique for reducing the impact of blows, something even Piccolo did against Frost. Thus, I don't factor in that bout of blocking, much like you don't factor in Golden Freeza tanking SS2 Cabba's blast.

Frost was very tired and Piccolo never landed a clean blow on him the same way Freeza did with Cabba. Freeza threw him against a wall and held up his face; Cabba could only break free by transforming.

Nice you mention Piccolo, by the way, considering he was portrayed as above base Goku and base Vegeta in the U6 arc since Vegeta decided to go SS to take care of Frost.

As well, we have past precedence regarding the "stronger as a whole VS. in a form". What was noted about Goku and Gohan after they came out of the Room of Spirit & Time was that they didn't have the intensity of Super Saiyan going on despite clearly being in the form. However, it's relatively clear that, even after merely removing the drain of SS and not explicitly powering up the form itself, Goku and Gohan were the strongest Z-Warriors around. Although people still argue to this day that FPSS has a different multiplier, there's plenty of evidence that goes against this notion. I think it applies pretty well here, because Freeza didn't display his true power until he unveiled his True Golden Evolution, much like how we didn't realize just how strong FPSS Goku was until he fought Perfect Cell.

I don't know what you're talking about. The Cell Games clearly imply that it was the Super Saiyan form/multiplier itself that was improved. The base form doesn't factor into the equation at all.

We have ample proof of multipliers getting bigger/being different in the same form. Look at the manga with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Look at the anime with Rosé Black, who was at the very least at SS2 Goku's level in base form, and yet he still ended up in the same ballpark as SSB Goku/Vegeta in the 'same' form.

Freeza did get stronger, it was stated in 95. True Golden Freeza isn’t just Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza without stamina issues, the training he did in hell made him stronger overall.

So TOP Freeza > Resurrection ‘F’ Freeza.

No retcon happened. Unless you thing Goku only just now caught up to the power of Resurrection ‘F’ Golden Freeza.

Golden Freeza =/= Final Form Freeza. Improving Golden Freeza and its power doesn't mean the effects have to necessarily reflect on his true form.

Piccolo stronger than the Base Saiyans? Is that why Piccolo, with a charged up attack couldn't even scratch Base Goku.

It was never officially stated that a stronger SSJ doesn't directly correlate with a stronger base, so that at best is another fan theory.

Nothing was ever stated about a lack of correlation between Golden Frieza and Final Form Frieza. If anything, it's implied that there is a connection between Frieza's Golden form and the other transformations, seeing as how powerful Frieza got as a whole in RoF.

[pacz360]

So how strong a hypothetical fusion of kale and caulifla would be?

[Doctor.]

Piccolo stronger than the Base Saiyans? Is that why Piccolo, with a charged up attack couldn't even scratch Base Goku.

Yes, I'm sure Piccolo, who episodes prior was proven to be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, was entirely in the mood to kill a character who, in the very same episode, was portrayed as even with base Gohan.

It was never officially stated that a stronger SSJ doesn't directly correlate with a stronger base, so that at best is another fan theory.

We have visible proof of it. Base Cabba and base Vegeta were stated as equals by Vegeta's own word and yet, later, we see SS Vegeta completely tanking SS Cabba's blows. We have Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in the manga claiming he improved the form beyond its initial state and showcasing that power by rivaling SS3 Goku.

Nothing was ever stated about a lack of correlation between Golden Frieza and Final Form Frieza. If anything, it's implied that there is a connection between Frieza's Golden form and the other transformations, seeing as how powerful Frieza got as a whole in RoF.

We know nothing about Freeza's Golden form. We can assume he needed to achieve a certain base level to get the form, but beyond that, whether the form is a multiplier or if the multiplier can be improved or not, your guess is as good as mine. I'm saying that Goku never noticed an increase of Freeza's base form, only of Golden Freeza when he decided to showcase the results of his training. Every time Freeza's training is mentioned, they stress the point that Golden Freeza has gotten stronger through mental image training.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Base on what exactly? Almost every transformation in this series is a multiplier of base form.

Unless you have some information I missed, you can’t claim something was retcon when it was never said or implied that only ‘Golden Freeza’ power went up and not base form Freeza.

And almost every multiplier in this series can be improved or modified separately. We have evidence of this when it comes to Super Saiyan (Cell Games/Vegeta and Cabba), Super Saiyan 2 (Trunks), Super Saiyan God (Toriyama's own word) and Super Saiyan Blue (Goku Black).

Goku never noted an increase of true form Freeza's power, only when Golden Freeza powered-up.

So, what explicit evidence is there that the original SS form's multiplier could be increased in its natural state? The only explicit evidence for this actually happening is Future Trunks's SS2 form in the manga, and ONLY in the manga.

Guidebooks and the original series only ever make mention of SS's stamina drain being removed with FPSS, as well as only referring to the form as regular SS from that point forward with the introduction of 2 & 3 into the lineup. The only power-up of the original SS beyond the graded forms noted in the original series was Pre-Teen Gohan's SS2 transformation, as the "right" way to power up SS, and even then was explicitly not just the original SS form.

As for Freeza, he only mentions removing the stamina drain of his Golden Evolution, much like how Goku and Gohan mentioned removing the stamina drain of the original SS form. With what I've stated above, it's very much possible that Freeza improving his Golden Evolution led to him becoming ferociously more powerful as a whole, but he only expressed the true extent of how much stronger when he went Golden fully, without holding back, much like how only Goku's fight with Cell showed just how much stronger he had gotten.

[HeroR]

And almost every multiplier in this series can be improved or modified separately. We have evidence of this when it comes to Super Saiyan (Cell Games/Vegeta and Cabba), Super Saiyan 2 (Trunks), Super Saiyan God (Toriyama's own word) and Super Saiyan Blue (Goku Black).

Goku never noted an increase of true form Freeza's power, only when Golden Freeza powered-up.

Mastered Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan that is more energy efficient and not an increase multiplier, as Vegeta told Trunks. Super Saiyan has always been called a 50x increase as per the guides.

Also, Toriyama only said that Super Saiyan God’s power depends on the user, which is the same for all Super Saiyan forms. Not that the multiplier goes up.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Rose we don’t know the multiplier for either or why Rose works the way it does.

Here’s this. Freeza went golden in 93 and 94, yet Goku noted no change in power and said that with certainty that him and Vegeta can beat him. It’s not until Freeza went golden in 95 that Goku was surprised by Freeza’s power.

So either Freeza surpressed himself until he decided to show-off or for some reason Goku just didn’t noted that Golden Freeza got massively stronger in 94.

Yes, I'm sure Piccolo, who episodes prior was proven to be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, was entirely in the mood to kill a character who, in the very same episode, was portrayed as even with base Gohan.

So Piccolo made his blast so weak that Goku tanked the attack and didn’t even push him to a ring out? Why even bothering charging a blast for several seconds?


And it was said in 90 that Gohan was stronger so the base form Gohan thst fought Goku, wasn’t the same Gohan that Piccolo strangled as a Super Saiyan 2.

[Ziegander]

So how strong a hypothetical fusion of kale and caulifla would be?

My guess is, if it can use the Berserker form, it's stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku, probably a LOT stronger (but probably not Jiren level). If it can't use the Berserker form, then... hard to say, maybe SSG level?

[Doctor.]

So, what explicit evidence is there that the original SS form's multiplier could be increased in its natural state? The only explicit evidence for this actually happening is Future Trunks's SS2 form in the manga, and ONLY in the manga.

Again, Vegeta and Cabba's fight is pretty explicit in this.

[pacz360]

So how strong a hypothetical fusion of kale and caulifla would be?

My guess is, if it can use the Berserker form, it's stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku, probably a LOT stronger (but probably not Jiren level). If it can't use the Berserker form, then... hard to say, maybe SSG level?

Depends how strong beserker is
She walked a suppress ssjb Kamehameha and toppo did comment on her Power
Guess we have to se

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, what explicit evidence is there that the original SS form's multiplier could be increased in its natural state? The only explicit evidence for this actually happening is Future Trunks's SS2 form in the manga, and ONLY in the manga.

Again, Vegeta and Cabba's fight is pretty explicit in this.

Not quite. There are subtle details, such as Vegeta changing his stance when SS Cabba is about to land that last strike in his initial rage so that the top of his forehand is angled directly at Cabba's fist. Basically, he blocked Cabba's fist with his head. It's not as ridiculous as it sounds, since this CAN be done IRL.

[HeroR]

So, what explicit evidence is there that the original SS form's multiplier could be increased in its natural state? The only explicit evidence for this actually happening is Future Trunks's SS2 form in the manga, and ONLY in the manga.

Again, Vegeta and Cabba's fight is pretty explicit in this.

Not quite. There are subtle details, such as Vegeta changing his stance when SS Cabba is about to land that last strike in his initial rage so that the top of his forehand is angled directly at Cabba's fist. Basically, he blocked Cabba's fist with his head. It's not as ridiculous as it sounds, since this CAN be done IRL.

I can actually vouch for this, but it’s not recommended for obvious reasons.

[dragon boss z]

1. What does Namek Frieza > Base Goku (start of Super) have to do with Base Gohan (RoF)? Let's try to stay on topic, rather than try and compare two characters whose base forms probably aren't even close to one another.

Well I feel most people would assume base Goku would be above a base Gohan who hasn't been training. Though this isn't really confirmed, so fair enough. Though he did have some abysmal showings. For example when Shisami cam forward PIccolo asked if Gohan needed help against him and Shisami knocked away his ki blasts and Gohan let him grab on to him. Gohan's body was pierced by Tagoma's attack while his power was suppressed and read by the scouter to be above Ginyu force level, which means it was still below first form Frieza level (or else it would of been stated) though it was a cheap shot. And when he was fighting Ginyu in Tagoma's body, Ginyu said his power was disappointing, and if base Gohan was above 100% Frieza, I just don't see Ginyu saying that. Not only out of respect of Frieza's old power, but it wouldn't make sense for Ginyu to think Gohan would be that strong. I think if he was above Frieza in base Ginyu would be surprised by that power, not disappointed. But that might be looking to far into it.

2. Feats are greater than statements huh? So going by that logic, Roshi > / = Piccolo right? I mean why not? Roshi was completely out of energy, yet he was still able to push back Frost, who was not only stronger since his battle with Piccolo, but was completely fresh. Piccolo on the other hand, couldn't really do the same against a weakened Frost, who had just been pummeled by Goku just moments before. So no, feats do not outweigh statements.

Piccolo put up a much better fight against Frost, even if he was weakened. Roshi just took Frost off guard a bit and it was only for a few seconds. Piccolo technically overpowered Frost with one arm, block his attacks with one hand, and would of won if Frost didn't cheat. I don't see surprising Frost for a few seconds is a better feat than that. I will completely agree how stupid the Roshi feat was, but in no way was it better than Piccolo's.

3. And... I don't remember any statements indicating Gohan was weaker than his Cell saga self. Just that he wasn't at his best. As far as I know, Cell saga Gohan was not his best. Gohan's uncertainty about some of Frieza's men was likely pertaining to Tagoma or the fact that he just didn't want to underestimate in general.

True. All we know is Gohan isn't at his best. But since at this point he couldn't go ssj2 anymore, I think it's logical to say he is weaker than when he could still go ssj2.

4. Still doesn't change the fact that Roshi was completely drained when he was able to push back Frost, someone who is far above him. So this analogy really doesn't help support the whole Piccolo and Gohan were held back by some grunts on the Frieza Force argument at all.

I mean they are both stupid scenes. I mean even the lowest I would put Gohan and Piccolo, they still should be able to instantly beat all of the soldiers.

5. We're talking about the series here not the movie. And no, no one in Super said Perfect Cell > Tagoma. Implications and opinions are not direct statements, so I won't think otherwise until someone in-universe literally says Tagoma hadn't surpassed Perfect Cell.

But nobody said he did surpass Cell, and nobody ever said Piccolo surpassed Cell. Piccolo was considered fodder by Dabura who was Cell level. Vegeta thought he could win the tournament in the buu saga in base and Piccolo was going to be in the tournament (he may of just of been being cocky).

6. I don't know if you get the message behind what I meant about Roshi and Namek Frieza. I'm saying, Roshi pushing back someone vastly superior as Frost completely stomps the theory that Gohan and Piccolo were nerfed, since they were held back by the Frieza Force.

I mean it is a good counter, but Frost wrecked Roshi seconds later and was only pushed back due to surprise. It's not like the soldiers got in their way only to be knocked back a few seconds later. They were stuck behind them for a prolonged period of time.

7. This whole, "this happened in the past, so it has to be consistent" argument really holds no value. Strength increases haven't really been consistent in the past, because if they were, Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) wouldn't have gone from 18,000 to the low millions in the Frieza saga. So no, being too absurd of a power up alone can't really be a reason why Tagoma didn't reach Buu-tier. This is a series where massive power ups have taken place. Perhaps not to that extent, but until someone in-universe says it's not possible, I really have no reason to doubt.

Saiyan power boosts were explained with zenkais, Piccolo was explained with fussion, Krillin and Gohan got their power unlocked, and when someone got a big boost from training it was usually from a new intense type of training. I mean with Tagoma's case it may be less of a power thing and more of a special super strong body thing. It is mentioned multiple times that Tagoma's body is extra tough because of his constant beatings. He said his skin was like steal and regular attacks had a reduced effect. Piccolo also mentioned how it was dangerous for a guy to be that fast and strong with a body of steel.

9. I'm not going to repeat myself. And in fact, I'm getting really tired of this debate. Clearly we're not agreeing with one another, so why not just agree to disagree? I don't care if I can or can't convince one user to see it one way or another, and quite frankly, I know I'll never agree with your viewpoints. Really no point in continuing this debate.

I mean I don't know about the Japanese version because I can't speak it, but in the english version it is made clear Goku thinks Piccolo would be more useful than a untrained Gohan. Now if the english version messed up on the translation that's one thing, but I specifically said that's how it is portrayed in the english version. While for most of this debate we can agree to disagree, but if you say that (in the english version) Piccolo isn't implied to be above rusty Gohan in episode 30 by Goku, then you are just wrong. So I would actually recommend watching the english version (for you to say what you did almost certainly means you didn't) before responding to my argument. Or at the very least say "that's what I got from the subs". But unless you are fluent in Japanese I highly doubt you could fully understand the underlying tone of the conversation. So in conclusion, the dub may be wrong, but the dub clearly has Goku imply he wants Piccolo over Gohan, and it really isn't subtle at all. I recommend the scene, it's actually funny. Oh and I actually just looked back at another scene in the english version and Goku literally says word for word "We need someone who can fight right now and Gohan is way to rusty to help us".

10. Bad writing or not, a huge power up took place. We should be grateful this series even exists, rather than nitpicking and trying to cram everyone into some made up power scale, very few even seem to care about. About Piccolo, Trunks was impressed when Piccolo had powered up out of the RoSaT, and when Goku said Piccolo would lose, Trunks was surprised. So... why would Trunks have that reaction towards a semi-perfect Cell-tier fighter?

Trunks really wasn't that surprised, I just looked at the anime and manga. Goku wasn't even sure if Piccolo went in the ROSAT or not yet, but he did bring it up because he thought Piccolo was stronger. Vegeta wasn't that impressed either (anime only), but Trunks mentioning how strong Piccolo got was anime only as well.

11. No Piccolo just implies that SSJ2 isn't Gohan's best, and that by going Ultimate he could get even stronger, and literally be at his best.

He said awaken the power you had when you fought Buu, he didn't say "the form". Though I guess it can be interpreted either way.

12. Let Buu handle it doesn't mean they were going to dump all of it on Buu necessarily. Plus, Buu has regeneration and stamina that far exceeds Gohan's.

Ya, but it seems Buu was written out of the arc because he was too strong. And there are multiple statements implying he is the strongest besides Goku and Vegeta. He was also the first person Goku went to recruit for the U6 tournament.

Again, like I said, I don't think we can agree with one another, so let's stop this debate here. There's no way I'm going to adhere to any of your points, and it seems mutual.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This isn't directed at you, but no matter how many instances, statements, and feats one brings up it seems nothing will convince some people to just accept the way things are written rather than nitpicking every aspect of something. Constantly fussing over these minute details and arguing with one another only demoralizes the fanbase.

I debate for fun, and these threads are made for going in depth in the series. There are some arguments that would do just as you say. For example getting into a heated argument about how many galaxies character A can destroy. An argument that obviously can't be proven either way with no real evidence on either side about something that the creators didn't even think about. However respectfully debating how strong one character is compared to another is fine.

And you say that kind of like you think your arguments are the more accepted way and the not nitpicking version. While I agree with the Tagoma argument that is probably the case, it is absolutely not the case with RoF Gohan being stronger than Buu. So we are both trying to use head canon for different arguments.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, this makes me wonder..... if Gohan could've gone SS2, would he have been able to at least not be completely chumped by First Form Freeza?

It's an interesting idea, regardless of whether you believe his base form was above Piccolo or his SS form was at his original level. Obviously, First Form Freeza made mincemeat out of SS Gohan, and he even warned SS Gotenks not to mess around with Freeza.

Of course, I'm also of the mindset that SS Gohan was comparable to SS Gotenks at the time and thus the strongest non-fused Z-Warrior on Earth at the time, even stronger than Majin Buu.

[dragon boss z]

Golden Freeza =/= Final Form Freeza. Improving Golden Freeza and its power doesn't mean the effects have to necessarily reflect on his true form.

Base on what exactly? Almost every transformation in this series is a multiplier of base form.

Unless you have some information I missed, you can’t claim something was retcon when it was never said or implied that only ‘Golden Freeza’ power went up and not base form Freeza.

Frieza said he can now better control his golden form making it the true golden Frieza. If it was just everything that got stronger it would of been the true frieza, not the true golden frieza.

[dragon boss z]

You know, this makes me wonder..... if Gohan could've gone SS2, would he have been able to at least not be completely chumped by First Form Freeza?

It's an interesting idea, regardless of whether you believe his base form was above Piccolo or his SS form was at his original level. Obviously, First Form Freeza made mincemeat out of SS Gohan, and he even warned SS Gotenks not to mess around with Freeza.

Of course, I'm also of the mindset that SS Gohan was comparable to SS Gotenks at the time and thus the strongest non-fused Z-Warrior on Earth at the time, even stronger than Majin Buu.

I think ssj Gotenks probably could of pushed Frieza at least a bit, which is why they had him defuse. If not they could of just had Frieza knock him away or something. As for ssj2 Gohan, I think he could of put up a fight, but since I think he is weaker than ever, I think he would of lost. Imo first form Frieza is around perfect Cell, and I think this version of Gohan is weaker than beginning of Buu saga Gohan, who couldn't defeat Dabura, so I don't think he could beat first form Frieza, but I don't think he would be absolutely stomped either, or at the very least Frieza would have to get out of his chair.

[supercat]

Piccolo stronger than the Base Saiyans? Is that why Piccolo, with a charged up attack couldn't even scratch Base Goku.

Yes, I'm sure Piccolo, who episodes prior was proven to be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, was entirely in the mood to kill a character who, in the very same episode, was portrayed as even with base Gohan.

It was never officially stated that a stronger SSJ doesn't directly correlate with a stronger base, so that at best is another fan theory.

We have visible proof of it. Base Cabba and base Vegeta were stated as equals by Vegeta's own word and yet, later, we see SS Vegeta completely tanking SS Cabba's blows. We have Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in the manga claiming he improved the form beyond its initial state and showcasing that power by rivaling SS3 Goku.

Nothing was ever stated about a lack of correlation between Golden Frieza and Final Form Frieza. If anything, it's implied that there is a connection between Frieza's Golden form and the other transformations, seeing as how powerful Frieza got as a whole in RoF.

We know nothing about Freeza's Golden form. We can assume he needed to achieve a certain base level to get the form, but beyond that, whether the form is a multiplier or if the multiplier can be improved or not, your guess is as good as mine. I'm saying that Goku never noticed an increase of Freeza's base form, only of Golden Freeza when he decided to showcase the results of his training. Every time Freeza's training is mentioned, they stress the point that Golden Freeza has gotten stronger through mental image training.

Piccolo's attack didn't do anything to Goku other than push him back a bit. If Goku couldn't stop that attack in base, don't you think he may have, I don't know, considered transforming?

Improving the form could very well be synonymous with getting stronger. Transformations are multipliers, so there's no reason for me to assume they can get stronger exclusively. Also, what does Trunks have to do with Golden Frieza? What would Frieza's physiology have anything to do with Saiyan physiology?

Golden Frieza is probably emphasized on, since anything lower than that is not worth discussing for characters like Goku, Vegeta, and Android 17. It could very well be that talking about a new-and-improved Golden Frieza is just another way of phrasing "Frieza got stronger as a whole."

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Just to address a few points in the thread, Gohan as of the future trunks arc was stated to be weaker than his cell games self by future trunks. He stated that he couldn't feel the brimming power that Gohan had at the cell games. Gohan never surpassed his cells games self until after the future trunks arc as shown during his fight with goku as saiyaman.

Current final form Frieza is stronger than Rof final form Frieza. He's equivalent to the current base Goku and vegeta whom have gotten stronger, so common sense says that he got stronger. He isn't stated to have only gotten stronger in his golden form.

Finally, there's no mention that Gohan got any stronger from piccolos training other than regaining his ultimate form. His base form wasn't any stronger when he fought Goku. The Gohan that fought goku and the one that fought piccolo are the same. Gohans ultimate form was the same as it was in the boo saga until he trained with goku and pushed it past it's limits.

[dragon boss z]

Just to address a few points in the thread, Gohan as of the future trunks arc was stated to be weaker than his cell games self by future trunks. He stated that he couldn't feel the brimming power that Gohan had at the cell games. Gohan never surpassed his cells games self until after the future trunks arc as shown during his fight with goku as saiyaman.

thanks that helps my argument

Current final form Frieza is stronger than Rof final form Frieza. He's equivalent to the current base Goku and vegeta whom have gotten stronger, so common sense says that he got stronger. He isn't stated to have only gotten stronger in his golden form.

We really don't know how final form Frieza compares to base Goku and Vegeta right now. Also Frieza seemed to be holding back on Goku in RoF. After Goku went Blue Frieza said "I will show you my full power now" and quickly attacked SSB Goku, even surprising him, but it was blocked and easily overpowered. That tells me Frieza used more power, or at least more speed, then when he was fighting base Goku.

Finally, there's no mention that Gohan got any stronger from piccolos training other than regaining his ultimate form. His base form wasn't any stronger when he fought Goku. The Gohan that fought goku and the one that fought piccolo are the same. Gohans ultimate form was the same as it was in the boo saga until he trained with goku and pushed it past it's limits.

Piccolo said Gohan could still get stronger, and they kept training, so while I guess it isn't outright stated, it is implied Gohan got stronger from training with Piccolo.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Freeza's full power is gold, not his true form, so he was referring to that. That and he was trying to catch Goku off-guard. He told him he was going to use his full power but attacked him instead.

All piccolo said is that him and Gohan should try to reach new heights before the tournament. That statement isnt inherently specific to the small session they did to develop combinations.

Piccolo stated that he could do nothing more for Gohan, which is followed by Gohan asking Goku to train him. Then Gohan states that he wants to achieve an ultimate form never before seen when fighting Goku and in the same fight he breaks his own limits and matches Ssb Goku by the end.