Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Lol at Ultimate Gohan being above Hit and 17, and Dyspo being Base tier. Seriously dude, you would rather believe that Dyspo is base tier instead of admitting that Final Form Freeza is around SSG tier?

[dragon boss z]

My List of Top 10 strongest fighters of the Tournament of Power Currently

1 ) Jiren (dominated most of the strongest fighters and rivals/surpasses some of the God of Destructions)
2 ) God of Destruction Toppo (power is in the God of Destruction realm which cause Beerus to be worried, not to mention hakia blast affect the entire World of Void)
3 ) Ultra Blue Vegeta (pushes a more powered up Jiren with a casual final flash or ki blast where as it took the spirit bomb or more stronger full power final flash to do so)
4 ) Ultra Instinct Goku (shook the world of void, while powered by the entire U7 spirit bomb which his power should rival and was able to put up a fight against Jiren)
5 ) Hit (was able to catch a Jiren off guard with a punch which had Jiren struggled to fight against when in the time cage, so mostly due to hax here)
6 ) Anilaza (was overpowering 5 SSB tier fighters while being close to destroying the entire stage)
7 ) SSJ2 Kefla (was able to surpass fatigue SSBKK(>x10) Goku, yet full power SSB would be too much for her SSJ but threaten a fatigue UI Goku with a bloodlusted attack)
8 ) Dyspo Light Speed mode (overwhelmed Golden Frezia whom rivals SSB Goku)
9 ) Freeza (rival SSB Goku when stalemating him a fight)
10 ) Android 17 ( pushed Goku to use SSB and was able to hold his own against the likes of Toppo)

I also want to bring up another topic here, whom has more potenial U6 Saiyans or U7 hybrid Saiyans?

It probably shouldn't be above Kefla since she was considered U6's final secret weapon even by Hit himself. And there is no way Hit could fight 5 god tiers at once and almost win so he shouldn't be above Aniraza either. With hax he is right above SSB level, without hax he is below SSB.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Alright, folks, next episode's coming out tomorrow. 17 and Vegeta look to be taking on Hakaishin Toppo, so let's see where that one goes!

Place your bets, and remember that no matter what..... I still get my 15% cut of all winnings.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Alright, folks, next episode's coming out tomorrow. 17 and Vegeta look to be taking on Hakaishin Toppo, so let's see where that one goes!

Place your bets, and remember that no matter what..... I still get my 15% cut of all winnings.

Placing bets when we know the outcome (127 spoilers) isn’t really entertaining. Now placing bets on who goes out first, vegeta or 17, that is something to bet on.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Alright, folks, next episode's coming out tomorrow. 17 and Vegeta look to be taking on Hakaishin Toppo, so let's see where that one goes!

Place your bets, and remember that no matter what..... I still get my 15% cut of all winnings.

Placing bets when we know the outcome (127 spoilers) isn’t really entertaining. Now placing bets on who goes out first, vegeta or 17, that is something to bet on.

Spoilers can be misleading, almost intentionally so, and it's best not to rely on them.

Besides, I'm the sort of person who prefers to enjoy things as they happen

[Bullza]

It'll be interesting to see if we actually do get a God of Destruction level Vegeta.

I'm curious how many Universe busting characters we'll get by the end of the show, looks like it'll be Jiren, Goku, Toppo, Vegeta and Kefla obviously not including the other Gods and Angels.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It'll be interesting to see if we actually do get a God of Destruction level Vegeta.

I'm curious how many Universe busting characters we'll get by the end of the show, looks like it'll be Jiren, Goku, Toppo, Vegeta and Kefla obviously not including the other Gods and Angels.

It seems as if the show ending soon has steered the narrative direction towards our heroes finally surpassing the likes of Beerus, or at least being given the greatest opportunity to do so, ever since his introduction and uncontested reign that started with Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods.

[Bullza]

It seems as if the show ending soon has steered the narrative direction towards our heroes finally surpassing the likes of Beerus, or at least being given the greatest opportunity to do so, ever since his introduction and uncontested reign that started with Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods.

Yeah and to think that back when that movie came out Beerus was supposed to have used 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku. They really pushed him upwards for Super.

That 10% comment just doesn't make any sense at all anymore but at least we know to ignore that now.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It seems as if the show ending soon has steered the narrative direction towards our heroes finally surpassing the likes of Beerus, or at least being given the greatest opportunity to do so, ever since his introduction and uncontested reign that started with Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods.

Yeah and to think that back when that movie came out Beerus was supposed to have used 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku. They really pushed him upwards for Super.

That 10% comment just doesn't make any sense at all anymore but at least we know to ignore that now.

Ahh yeah, good times. Then goku unleashed kaioken on blue and people though he was stronger than beerus, wrong again. Then ssb vegito came out and we all though he would stomp beerus, turns out he was just comparable to beerus. Now we have a being who is possibly above hakaishin tier, and goku might end up defeating him.

[ZombieVito]

Let see:

- I find it weird that Zeno's attendants be stronger than the Angels. It's just preference.
- I also thought Vegetto weakened Zamasu but that was never said in the show.
- SS Kefla was confirmed to be as strong as Goku's Genkidama so she is over SSB KKx20 Goku.
- Any particular reason why Aniliza should be over SSB2 Vegeta?
- My list is only about raw power so Hit and Dyspo are at those levels because of it.
- Maji Kayo could go either way I guess.
- Caulifla only struggled against base Goku because of how she fought and Goku's skill. Once she adapted to Goku's movements she forced him to go SS3.
- I guess Mastered SS Bersek Kale could be high SS3 tier but I don't think SSG Goku was that tired so I put her in low SSG tier.
- Piccolo strangled a SS2 Gohan that fought on even grounds with Goku in E75.
- Maybe I should bump 18 and Ribrianne over Gotenks but they are base tier. Zirloin gained all of RIbrianne's power and couldn't even land a hit on an exhausted Goku.
- While Piccolo did say Gamisaras was nothing, he did beat 18 up. Even while fighting the invisible man, Yamcha could still evade and even hit him. 18 was completely helpless.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Miracles]

Okay then, let's simplify further. Occam's Razor, the philosophy that the hypothesis with the least assumptions is the one that should be selected. What does Occam's Razor tell us about the situations we argued about? Well, I don't need to point it out, the episodes spelled it out as simply as possible.

With Hit, he didn't raise his battle power, but instead powered up and improved himself, increasing his Time-Skip effectiveness.

With Dyspo, he raised his speed even further and pressured even Freeza.

Occam's Razor would have us not make any further assumptions. Hit improved Time-Skip, and Dyspo increased his speed. Narratively speaking, this is what was presented to us, and we as viewers are expected to take it as is.

Tell me...... with these "ingrained and immutable rules" that you prop up so frequently, how come Goku was taken down by a simple laser for the crime of "being off-guard"? I mean, plenty of other characters have been taken off-guard and turned out fine in the entire series, right? The very same arc you pulled a quote from, Gohan lands a direct blow on Dodoria whilst he was off-guard to save Dende, and he's certainly much stronger than some dinky laser. And yet, he didn't tear off Dodoria's head, and the big brute shook it off. Is THAT an example of the series "outright ignoring the story"?

Occam's Razor, my misguided friend. Occam's Razor. It's a powerful tool. We don't get told or blatantly visually telegraphed that battle powers are increased, so the safest assumption is not to assume they have increased, for these particular exa,ples.

Go on, keep thinking that Dragon Ball is some perfectly consistent series that never contradicts itself or changes the rules, with its Senzu Beans that clearly never used to only make you feel full to becoming magical healing plot devices, or Goku's Saiyan heritage being why he's always ahead of his Human companions whom have certainly never gained better gains from training under Kami than he did. CLEARLY, these were immutable and unchanging parts of the series that are ALWAYS consistent within themselves, aren't they?

The story still defeats your headcannon cause Universe 11's Kai stated Golden Freeza was ONLY faster than Dyspo.
Now does this mean that after Freeza's power up his speed was only better than Dyspo's?
No, we SEE Freeza actually damaging Dyspo with Physical strength and tanking Dyspo's blow by might. In this case statements and VISUALS go together.
As far as Hit's "power up" increasing his battle power see below...
https://imgur.com/r58AFfD

Just for clarification, the exchange from Goku that I wrote is exactly what is written in the Crunchyroll English subs, which is a legal streaming service that I pay from my pockets since 2013. My source here. If there is another official service or even a different perspective from people that are actually Japanese speakers, I will gladly support them as well.

Also, the relevant quotes for context and reference:
Vegeta: "So that yelling was a trigger to power up after all?"
Whis: "No."
Vados: "[...] He decided to copy Goku san's method."
Hit: "I can't power up by transforming like you Saiyans. To become stronger there was only one way left for me."
Kuririn: "And that one way was.."
Piccolo: "To advance himself!"
Vegeta: "What?"
Piccolo: "Hit used this short time to simply advance himself!"
Hit: "Advancing myself. [...] Indeed I have now succeeded.. .. in lengthening my Time Skip to 0.2 seconds."
Kuririn: "He lengthened his Time Skip?!"
Goku: "As expected. His attack after powering up got me real good. The most I can take is another few hits... But a few hits are all I need. The world beyond 0.2 seconds... is not somewhere I can't reach. (misreading the situation)"
Vegeta: "Powering up during battle is the Saiyans' specialty. There is no one who could outdo us in our speed of advancing ourselves!".

So, first Hit powered up, then he didn't, but wait he did.. hmm what exactly he did? In a nutshell, it's a power up, yet not a power up. It seems very clear to me that Time Skip's increased length is the reason of his advance.

"AS EXPECTED His attack "AFTER" powering up "GOT ME REAL GOOD."
Thank you, you proved my point, that Hit's STRENGTH increased as well after powering up.
His strength increase was even "EXPECTED," proving my point even more, power ups naturally increase overall power.

No, Gohan was pressing Dyspo even with the aura and Shin said that in a direct battle, Gohan would not lose (and again, Dyspo was already with the aura).

In fact, Dyspo with aura had also touched the bars of Freeza and she did not disappear.
Dyspo did not deactivate the aura the moment Gohan attacked, he was pushed back and then his aura disappeared. Nothing indicates that Gohan was responsible for this, after all before Dyspo had received worse attacks and his aura did not disappear.
He also activated the aura again after the Freeza bars disappeared

Gohan defended Dyspo's punch with aura easily, so this shows that he had not increased his power

Nothing indicates that Vegeta's comment was referring to the whole struggle.
If that was the case, Vegeta would have told this to Jiren before facing him alone.
He just said it at that moment, and Jiren quickly countered and dominated Vegeta, implying that he began to use more power

1. Vegeta's statement about Jiren not using full power against him was for the whole time cause Jiren couldn't defeat a FATIGUED Goku before facing Vegeta. We don't need Vegeta to say it then cause it is SHOWN. And vegeta just simply confirms all of this later.
2. Dyspo's aura doesn't matter. Stop bringing up useless things, Dyspo couldn't dodge in the cage so he had to use strength in a fist fight. And Gohan Still couldn't put him down in time. Proving that Dyspo's raw strength increased as well not just speed.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Hit didn't increase his raw might and neither did Dyspo. That much is blatantly obvious. It was stated by multiple characters that Hit didn't get physically stronger and nothing in the story in it's proper context portrays Dyspo in Super Maximum Light Speed mode as stronger than before, just faster.

[Miracles]

Hit didn't increase his raw might and neither did Dyspo. That much is blatantly obvious. It was stated by multiple characters that Hit didn't get physically stronger and nothing in the story in it's proper context portrays Dyspo in Super Maximum Light Speed mode as stronger than before, just faster.

https://imgur.com/r58AFfD

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

As was already said in the thread before, that isn't the correct translation.

All that was stated is that Hit advanced his Time skip and that improved Time skip allowed him to land a critical hit in Goku.

[Miracles]

As was already said in the thread before, that isn't the correct translation.

All that was stated is that Hit advanced his Time skip and that improved Time skip allowed him to land a critical hit in Goku.

No that's the correct translation. Even Hugo's official statement says the same thing, just worded differently.
Let's not try any mental gymnastics please.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No that's not the correct translation and it doesn't say the same thing. The show stated that Hit powered up by advancing his Time skip, not by increasing his raw might.

"His attack after powering up got me real good."

All that's required is to keep the statement in context, which you aren't doing.

Hit: "I can't power up by transforming like you Saiyans. To become stronger there was only one way left for me."
Kuririn: "And that one way was.."
Piccolo: "To advance himself!"
Vegeta: "What?"
Piccolo: "Hit used this short time to simply advance himself!"
Hit: "Advancing myself. [...] Indeed I have now succeeded.. .. in lengthening my Time Skip to 0.2 seconds."


The attack that Hit landed on Goku due to his advanced Time skip got him real good. That's all that Goku's statement means. This isn't that hard to understand.

[Miracles]

No that's not the correct translation and it doesn't say the same thing. The show stated that Hit powered up by advancing his Time skip, not by increasing his raw might.

His attack after powering up got me real good.

All that's required is to keep the statement in context, which you aren't doing.

Hit: "I can't power up by transforming like you Saiyans. To become stronger there was only one way left for me."
Kuririn: "And that one way was.."
Piccolo: "To advance himself!"
Vegeta: "What?"
Piccolo: "Hit used this short time to simply advance himself!"
Hit: "Advancing myself. [...] Indeed I have now succeeded.. .. in lengthening my Time Skip to 0.2 seconds."


The attack that Hit landed on Goku due to his advanced Time skip got him real good. That's all that Goku's statement means. This isn't that hard to understand.

Why don't you post the rest? Cause it simply defeats your headcannon.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's the entire exchange. I posted all relevant statements. Not my problem if you can't properly read the story.

According to Hit himself the only way left for him to get stronger was to advance himself and advancing himself in his own words only pertained to increasing the length of his Time skip. Prove Hit wrong, you can't.

[Miracles]

That's the entire exchange. I posted all relevant statements. Not my problem if you can't properly read the story.

According to Hit himself the only way left for him to get stronger was to advance himself and advancing himself in his own words only pertained to increasing the length of his Time skip. Prove Hit wrong, you can't.

Hit agrees with me cause he was able to damage Goku with his punch. Just like Goku stated about Hit's strength increasing as well.

[JazzMazz]

That's the entire exchange. I posted all relevant statements. Not my problem if you can't properly read the story.

According to Hit himself the only way left for him to get stronger was to advance himself and advancing himself in his own words only pertained to increasing the length of his Time skip. Prove Hit wrong, you can't.

Hit agrees with me cause he was able to damage Goku with his punch. Just like Goku stated about Hit's strength increasing as well.

Lets say he did get stronger, but that simply raises the question, how much stronger did he get?

He obviously didn't even get two times stronger then Goku because using the basic Kaio-Ken was able to completely blitz him, so just how much stronger could he have gotten?