Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SuperNingenGod]

I think it's safe to say Beyond Blue Vegeta is stronger than Hakaishin Toppo at least, he's able to over power and out speed Toppo even in normal circumstances without that Final Explosion. The gap between the two isn't huge tho, Vegeta is definitely a GoD level. Compared to a top tier seasoned GoD like Beerus? He might still be under for one particular reason. We've seen how Beyond Blue Vegeta stacked up pretty evenly with a presumably 20x Kaioken Blue Goku when fighting Jiren and Beerus even with a prior knowledge of Goku's ability to go KKx20 did not feel phased at all unlike when he saw UI Omen. Beerus wasn't that ecstatic or feel threatened when he saw Vegeta's new form either. So in that sense BB Vegeta should still be below Beerus but not by a huge margin now. After all, hakaishins are not made equal, just like Hokages, Shodaimei is vastly stronger than everyone else for example. Personally I feel like UI Omen Goku equals or slightly stronger than Beerus but Mastered UI Goku would far surpass him.

[Legion]

I agree. Gods of Destruction are obsolete and irrelevant now. Episode 126 made that quite clear, Beyond Blue Vegeta straight out defeated a God of Destruction in hand to hand combat, and even managed to overpower, nullify, and even DESTROY the DESTRUCTION Energy from Toppo. Vegeta’s own concentrated energy straight up overpowered the Hakai! And later again, with Vegeta’s Final Explosion attack, he overpowered Toppo’s FULL POWER Hakai Blast. It was quite clearly Toei’s way of telling the audience that Gods of Destruction are obsolete now and have been surpassed. And this was just BeyondBlue Vegeta! We aren’t even talking about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku yet, who is CLEARLY wayyyyy above SSJ Blue 2 Vegeta! Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing! And that’s why it’s so far above anything else includings Gods of Destruction. The magazine cover that came out last week that Herms translated clearly said that “UI is a power SURPASSING the Gods of Destruction!” They even stated that it was a realm GoDs cannot reach. they didn’t say “easily reach” No. They flat out stated that Gods of Destruction CANNOT achieve full mastery over Ultra Instinct. So i hope that throws that stupid theory out of the window that fans had concering some of the top tier Gods to possess Ultra Instinct. they don’t. end of story. Period.

Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing afterall. And Goku is now Angel level. He may not be on the level of Whis or the others, but he is definitely up there. Low Tier Angel level is an understatement. It’s clear as day. He even has Silver/White hair. Now why do you think they gave him that? You tell me.

I can't believe what i'm reading here. At this point i think that you guys are just trolling.

[VegettoEX]

I can't believe what i'm reading here. At this point i think that you guys are just trolling.

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[ZenkaiBoosts]

In battle of the gods, SSgod Goku was fairly competitive against Beerus, and Beerus said he was going 70%

I guess you're gonna pull a V&J Reviews huh?

I actually really feel that mastered UI Goku will be APPROACHING the lower tier of angels. UI is an angle thing.

And just because Ultra Instinct is natural with the Angels, doesn't mean Gokou is on they're level. That's very...... well, vexing to claim. Hell, Gokou isn't even confirmed to surpass even Beerus yet dude. And even further you have Angels with the power far beyond the Hakaishins. That's just purely your own headcanon and cluelessness. You should at least prove Gokou is Angel level with some substantial evidence to back such powerful claims.

I'm not saying MUI Goku is on their level.

I'm saying that I feel Goku is now "approaching" the LOWER tier of angels with MUI.

I made it clear that that part was my opinion

There was nothing "headcanon" about everything else I said

129 or 130 summaries state that both Jiren and Goku (especially MUI Goku) are above the gods now

[Hugo Boss]

To be fair, Beerus has probably more experience with Hakai than Toppo and has, at least, used an incomplete version of Ultra Instinct. So, I would say Goku would need at least the completed version of Ultra Instinct to beat him. Though, in a serious match Beerus could have a reason to complete the technique as well.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

To be fair, Beerus has probably more experience with Hakai than Toppo and has, at least, used an incomplete version of Ultra Instinct. So, I would say Goku would need at least the completed version of Ultra Instinct to beat him. Though, in a serious match Beerus could have a reason to complete the technique as well.

Beerus: You thought you surpassed me, Goku, but I had actually already mastered the Ultra Instinct the whole time!

[TheSaiyanGod]

To be fair, Beerus has probably more experience with Hakai than Toppo and has, at least, used an incomplete version of Ultra Instinct. So, I would say Goku would need at least the completed version of Ultra Instinct to beat him. Though, in a serious match Beerus could have a reason to complete the technique as well.

Beerus only used an '' incomplete '' summer of the UI in the manga.
In the anime, he never demonstrated to be able to use this technique.

And we've already seen that simply power is capable of rivaling the UI. This is what Jiren is doing. So even if Beerus can use the incomplete UI, that does not make him superior to Goku

I think that you don't know what you're talking about.

Vegeta wasted a GoD by himself and he's a flea compared to Goku, Beerus would get mopped up by Goku Hakai or not.

Vegeta didn't "wasted" anyone. He used a "suicide move" for a reason.

MUI Goku is stronger than Beerus/Gods probably but that he can stomp them is headcanon.

Goku wank is just out of control here.

The point is that Vegeta did not use a suicide movie. The '' Final Explosion '' is now just an attack that consumes all your energy, it does not die.
In fact, maybe not even spending all his energy, we saw that Vegeta managed to become Beyond Blue on EP 127.

So it makes no sense to use this as an argument, suggesting that he was not able to defeat Toppo when he proved to be able to do so.

He easily dominated a GoD level guy, so Vegeta is considerably stronger than Toppo and so he's definitely GoD tier, maybe able to rival some of the more powerful GoDs.

[MajinVegetaPD]

To be fair, Beerus has probably more experience with Hakai than Toppo and has, at least, used an incomplete version of Ultra Instinct. So, I would say Goku would need at least the completed version of Ultra Instinct to beat him. Though, in a serious match Beerus could have a reason to complete the technique as well.

Beerus only used an '' incomplete '' summer of the UI in the manga.
In the anime, he never demonstrated to be able to use this technique.

And we've already seen that simply power is capable of rivaling the UI. This is what Jiren is doing. So even if Beerus can use the incomplete UI, that does not make him superior to Goku

Vegeta wasted a GoD by himself and he's a flea compared to Goku, Beerus would get mopped up by Goku Hakai or not.

Vegeta didn't "wasted" anyone. He used a "suicide move" for a reason.

MUI Goku is stronger than Beerus/Gods probably but that he can stomp them is headcanon.

Goku wank is just out of control here.

The point is that Vegeta did not use a suicide movie. The '' Final Explosion '' is now just an attack that consumes all your energy, it does not die.
In fact, maybe not even spending all his energy, we saw that Vegeta managed to become Beyond Blue on EP 127.

So it makes no sense to use this as an argument, suggesting that he was not able to defeat Toppo when he proved to be able to do so.

He easily dominated a GoD level guy, so Vegeta is considerably stronger than Toppo and so he's definitely GoD tier, maybe able to rival some of the more powerful GoDs.

This is true, but we have yet to see Beerus at full power. Also, if I'm not mistaken Beerus can tap into UI Omen in the anime as well, as when Whis was talking to Vegeta and Goke about it he mentioned that "not even Beerus has mastered this technique", which to me means he can tap into it partially.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Do we know what the ranks are among the angels? I think I remember Vados and Whis being called the strongest angels? Am I mis-remembering? Have they ever mentioned who are among the weakest angels?

[GodVegetto91]

I can't believe what i'm reading here. At this point i think that you guys are just trolling.

This is not an acceptable post. Please review the community guidelines that you agreed to (twice) prior to registration, less you face additional account strikes.

If you have nothing to say (which is the case here), there is no need to make a post. You are not obligated to respond to every post, particularly when you have little more than an antagonistic jab to make.

I think it’s safe to assume that the user known as Gohan Black has been permanently banned?

[MajinVegetaPD]

I agree. Gods of Destruction are obsolete and irrelevant now. Episode 126 made that quite clear, Beyond Blue Vegeta straight out defeated a God of Destruction in hand to hand combat, and even managed to overpower, nullify, and even DESTROY the DESTRUCTION Energy from Toppo. Vegeta’s own concentrated energy straight up overpowered the Hakai! And later again, with Vegeta’s Final Explosion attack, he overpowered Toppo’s FULL POWER Hakai Blast. It was quite clearly Toei’s way of telling the audience that Gods of Destruction are obsolete now and have been surpassed. And this was just BeyondBlue Vegeta! We aren’t even talking about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku yet, who is CLEARLY wayyyyy above SSJ Blue 2 Vegeta! Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing! And that’s why it’s so far above anything else includings Gods of Destruction. The magazine cover that came out last week that Herms translated clearly said that “UI is a power SURPASSING the Gods of Destruction!” They even stated that it was a realm GoDs cannot reach. They didn’t say “easily reach” No. They flat out stated that Gods of Destruction CANNOT achieve full mastery over Ultra Instinct. So i hope that throws that stupid theory out of the window that fans had concering some of the top tier Gods to possess Ultra Instinct. They don’t. End of story. Period.

Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing afterall. And Goku is now Angel level. He may not be on the level of Whis or the others, but he is definitely up there. Low Tier Angel level is an understatement. It’s clear as day. He even has Silver/White hair. Now why do you think they gave him that? You tell me.

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

[GodVegetto91]

I agree. Gods of Destruction are obsolete and irrelevant now. Episode 126 made that quite clear, Beyond Blue Vegeta straight out defeated a God of Destruction in hand to hand combat, and even managed to overpower, nullify, and even DESTROY the DESTRUCTION Energy from Toppo. Vegeta’s own concentrated energy straight up overpowered the Hakai! And later again, with Vegeta’s Final Explosion attack, he overpowered Toppo’s FULL POWER Hakai Blast. It was quite clearly Toei’s way of telling the audience that Gods of Destruction are obsolete now and have been surpassed. And this was just BeyondBlue Vegeta! We aren’t even talking about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku yet, who is CLEARLY wayyyyy above SSJ Blue 2 Vegeta! Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing! And that’s why it’s so far above anything else includings Gods of Destruction. The magazine cover that came out last week that Herms translated clearly said that “UI is a power SURPASSING the Gods of Destruction!” They even stated that it was a realm GoDs cannot reach. They didn’t say “easily reach” No. They flat out stated that Gods of Destruction CANNOT achieve full mastery over Ultra Instinct. So i hope that throws that stupid theory out of the window that fans had concering some of the top tier Gods to possess Ultra Instinct. They don’t. End of story. Period.

Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing afterall. And Goku is now Angel level. He may not be on the level of Whis or the others, but he is definitely up there. Low Tier Angel level is an understatement. It’s clear as day. He even has Silver/White hair. Now why do you think they gave him that? You tell me.

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

What does that have to do with anything? They’re two completely different cases. In Freeza’s case it was a weak henchman with only a very Very small portion of Sidra’s Hakai energy. In this case, Vegeta straight up defeated a God of Destruction in combat. In every possible way! Vegeta was clearly the superior fighter.

Furthermore, i said LOW Angel Tier. Please read properly before making judgements. Thanks.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I agree. Gods of Destruction are obsolete and irrelevant now. Episode 126 made that quite clear, Beyond Blue Vegeta straight out defeated a God of Destruction in hand to hand combat, and even managed to overpower, nullify, and even DESTROY the DESTRUCTION Energy from Toppo. Vegeta’s own concentrated energy straight up overpowered the Hakai! And later again, with Vegeta’s Final Explosion attack, he overpowered Toppo’s FULL POWER Hakai Blast. It was quite clearly Toei’s way of telling the audience that Gods of Destruction are obsolete now and have been surpassed. And this was just BeyondBlue Vegeta! We aren’t even talking about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku yet, who is CLEARLY wayyyyy above SSJ Blue 2 Vegeta! Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing! And that’s why it’s so far above anything else includings Gods of Destruction. The magazine cover that came out last week that Herms translated clearly said that “UI is a power SURPASSING the Gods of Destruction!” They even stated that it was a realm GoDs cannot reach. They didn’t say “easily reach” No. They flat out stated that Gods of Destruction CANNOT achieve full mastery over Ultra Instinct. So i hope that throws that stupid theory out of the window that fans had concering some of the top tier Gods to possess Ultra Instinct. They don’t. End of story. Period.

Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing afterall. And Goku is now Angel level. He may not be on the level of Whis or the others, but he is definitely up there. Low Tier Angel level is an understatement. It’s clear as day. He even has Silver/White hair. Now why do you think they gave him that? You tell me.

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

Mastered UI Goku has already surpassed the gods. Its a fact, explicitly stated so by recent episode summaries.

When you pass the gods, who's next? The angles. Hence mastered UI Goku is now approaching the lower tier of angels now. It doesn't mean he is on their level...but he has passed one plateau and is covering ground on the next

[Green]

I don't really know where people got the impression that Toppo is on the same level as the other Hakaishin, just because he uses destruction energy? Goku does that in the manga too and he's miles behind Beerus.

Rather, I don't think Toppo could top even the weakest Hakaishin considering how Vegeta manhandled him. Maybe the latter is on said level because of his "mah promise" powerup, but I have my doubts.

[GodVegetto91]

I agree. Gods of Destruction are obsolete and irrelevant now. Episode 126 made that quite clear, Beyond Blue Vegeta straight out defeated a God of Destruction in hand to hand combat, and even managed to overpower, nullify, and even DESTROY the DESTRUCTION Energy from Toppo. Vegeta’s own concentrated energy straight up overpowered the Hakai! And later again, with Vegeta’s Final Explosion attack, he overpowered Toppo’s FULL POWER Hakai Blast. It was quite clearly Toei’s way of telling the audience that Gods of Destruction are obsolete now and have been surpassed. And this was just BeyondBlue Vegeta! We aren’t even talking about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku yet, who is CLEARLY wayyyyy above SSJ Blue 2 Vegeta! Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing! And that’s why it’s so far above anything else includings Gods of Destruction. The magazine cover that came out last week that Herms translated clearly said that “UI is a power SURPASSING the Gods of Destruction!” They even stated that it was a realm GoDs cannot reach. They didn’t say “easily reach” No. They flat out stated that Gods of Destruction CANNOT achieve full mastery over Ultra Instinct. So i hope that throws that stupid theory out of the window that fans had concering some of the top tier Gods to possess Ultra Instinct. They don’t. End of story. Period.

Ultra Instinct is an Angel thing afterall. And Goku is now Angel level. He may not be on the level of Whis or the others, but he is definitely up there. Low Tier Angel level is an understatement. It’s clear as day. He even has Silver/White hair. Now why do you think they gave him that? You tell me.

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

Mastered UI Goku has already surpassed the gods. Its a fact, explicitly stated so by recent episode summaries.

When you pass the gods, who's next? The angles. Hence mastered UI Goku is now approaching the lower tier of angels now. It doesn't mean he is on their level...but he has passed one plateau and is covering ground on the next

Now this is an accurate description indeed. And it’s 100% True. If one has surpassed God of Destruction tier, than one is aproaching Angel Tier by definition. I can’t see how that could possibly be wrong indeed.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Respectfully disagree here.

By that logic, Freeza is GoD tier as well as he man handled Sidra's destruction energy. As Toppo showed when Freeza got roflstomed by his energy, all GoD's are not created equal in terms of power.

To say Goku and Jiren are angel level is a reach. There is nothing concrete yet as far as the power scaling goes right now.

Mastered UI Goku has already surpassed the gods. Its a fact, explicitly stated so by recent episode summaries.

When you pass the gods, who's next? The angles. Hence mastered UI Goku is now approaching the lower tier of angels now. It doesn't mean he is on their level...but he has passed one plateau and is covering ground on the next

Now this is an accurate description indeed. And it’s 100% True. If one has surpassed God of Destruction tier, than one is aproaching Angel Tier by definition. I can’t see how that could possibly be wrong indeed.

And that's me wording it conservatively lol.

If I'm being truly honest, I think MUI Goku will be somewhat closer to the lower tier of angles then people realize.

Summaries state that MUI Goku has far surpassed the gods. If hes far surpassed them that means hes covering more ground on the lower tier of angels.

I'm really wondering what reaction Beerus will have to MUI Goku? Is he going to be salty that Goku far surpassed him lol?

In the one minute extended preview of 129, Whis gives a smile of acknowledgement to Goku. Its an awesome moment and that really says it all IMO.

It would be awesome if Whis gives some kind of flashback or monolog of how far Son Goku has come - from the beginning when he 1st started training him, to now witnessing him accomplish mastered UI, and Whis being proud of Son Goku

[GodVegetto91]

Mastered UI Goku has already surpassed the gods. Its a fact, explicitly stated so by recent episode summaries.

When you pass the gods, who's next? The angles. Hence mastered UI Goku is now approaching the lower tier of angels now. It doesn't mean he is on their level...but he has passed one plateau and is covering ground on the next

Now this is an accurate description indeed. And it’s 100% True. If one has surpassed God of Destruction tier, than one is aproaching Angel Tier by definition. I can’t see how that could possibly be wrong indeed.

And that's me wording it conservatively lol.

If I'm being truly honest, I think MUI Goku will be somewhat closer to the lower tier of angles then people realize.

Summaries state that MUI Goku has far surpassed the gods. If hes far surpassed them that means hes covering more ground on the lower tier of angels.

I'm really wondering what reaction Beerus will have to MUI Goku? Is he going to be salty that Goku far surpassed him lol?

In the one minute extended preview of 129, Whis gives a smile of acknowledgement to Goku. Its an awesome moment and that really says it all IMO.

It would be awesome if Whis gives some kind of flashback or monolog of how far Son Goku has come - from the beginning when he 1st started training him, to now witnessing him accomplish mastered UI, and Whis being proud of Son Goku

Yes i would love that! I can’t wait to see all of the Gods’ reactions and especially the Grand Priest. Seeing Whis be proud of his first student to have ever mastered UI is quite awesome. I too believe Goku is very close to the Angels now. But we need to wait for evidence first.

[Rally 07]

I'm saying that I feel Goku is now "approaching" the LOWER tier of angels with MUI.

Okay, but like I said earlier, maybe you should at least provide some reasoning why Gokou would even come close to that level dude. You're pretty much saying Gokou is reaching that level without giving any reasons why. You're just assuming he is based off headcanon.

129 or 130 summaries state that both Jiren and Goku (especially MUI Goku) are above the gods now

How about you provide a screenshot of the summaries. Because as far as I've known, we've only received some provisional titles for the upcoming episodes 130 and 131. Plus the summary for Super episode 129 absolutely does not claim Gokou has surpassed the Hakaishins or all of the Gods.

Here's the link to YonkouProduction's tweet displaying the summary/spoilers for Super episode https://twitter.com/yonkouprod/status/9 ... 8143541248

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I'm saying that I feel Goku is now "approaching" the LOWER tier of angels with MUI.

Okay, but like I said earlier, maybe you should at least provide some reasoning why Gokou would even come close to that level dude. You're pretty much saying Gokou is reaching that level without giving any reasons why. You're just assuming he is based off headcanon.

129 or 130 summaries state that both Jiren and Goku (especially MUI Goku) are above the gods now

How about you provide a screenshot of the summaries. Because as far as I've known, we've only received some provisional titles for the upcoming episodes 130 and 131. Plus the summary for Super episode 129 absolutely does not claim Gokou has surpassed the Hakaishins or all of the Gods.

Here's the link to YonkouProduction's tweet displaying the summary/spoilers for Super episode https://twitter.com/yonkouprod/status/9 ... 8143541248

So you haven't been paying attention then?



That isn't my headcanon. That's a fact ^

Mastered UI Goku has surpassed the gods. Its out right stated

[HeroR]

I don't really know where people got the impression that Toppo is on the same level as the other Hakaishin, just because he uses destruction energy? Goku does that in the manga too and he's miles behind Beerus.

Rather, I don't think Toppo could top even the weakest Hakaishin considering how Vegeta manhandled him. Maybe the latter is on said level because of his "mah promise" powerup, but I have my doubts.

The manga and the anime are not the same universe here. So far in the anime, no non-god has used Haki.