Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Can we use Goku not fainting after Rummshi's battle roar as a way to gauge his Base power? From Daizenshuu 7 we know that Shin is supposed to be quite a bit stronger than Piccolo but inferior to SS1s of the Boo arc. Of course, some messy Boo arc stuff like Shin not budging an inch over SS2 Gohan but then fawning in awe of Base Vegeta within the span of a few chapters does make this less concrete. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that Shin really is above Piccolo but inferior to SS1 and above tier warriors.

Here's how the numbers would look by my estimate:
Base Goku - 100 million (pre-God)
Piccolo - 1.2 billion (Boo arc)
Shin - 1.8 billion
Base Goku ToP = Cell Games SS1 Goku - 2.5 billion

This also gives us where Vegeta and Future Trunks (ugh) stand. Does this make sense?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Can we use Goku not fainting after Rummshi's battle roar as a way to gauge his Base power? From Daizenshuu 7 we know that Shin is supposed to be quite a bit stronger than Piccolo but inferior to SS1s of the Boo arc. Of course, some messy Boo arc stuff like Shin not budging an inch over SS2 Gohan but then fawning in awe of Base Vegeta within the span of a few chapters does make this less concrete. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that Shin really is above Piccolo but inferior to SS1 and above tier warriors.

Here's how the numbers would look by my estimate:
Base Goku - 100 million (pre-God)
Piccolo - 1.2 billion (Boo arc)
Shin - 1.8 billion
Base Goku ToP = Cell Games SS1 Goku - 2.5 billion

This also gives us where Vegeta and Future Trunks (ugh) stand. Does this make sense?

I remember having this discussion many pages back when that chapter first came out.

It's hard to gauge, though it is worth noting that Shin was a pretty weak Kaioshin, and even then the mortals only surpassed him when SS2 Gohan and Perfect Cell emerged. Most average Kaioshin being as strong as Cell or possibly even Majin Buu's lower forms is a pretty safe assumption.

[HeroR]

Here's some context of the translations from the V-Jump magazine about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku:



(copying and pasting a response a Japanese translator made when I asked him whether or not MUI Goku surpasses every hakaishin)

It seems to be more of a general thing, as in that new power of Goku surpasses that of a God of Destruction, implied an average one I guess.

- それは破壊神をも超越する力！
- Sore wa hakaishin wo mo chouetsu suru chikara !

I would translate it as "This is the power that surpasses even that of a God of Destruction's !".

If they had really wanted to say that he had surpassed all of them they could've added something like 破壊神達 (Hakaishin-tachi / Gods of Destruction) or 全員の破壊神 (Zenin no Hakaishin / All the Gods of Destruction), but there's no plural indicator or anything there.

Anyway, it all depends on whether the author believes all the Gods of Destruction are at roughly the same level or not. If he does then you could understand that sentence as "He surpassed all of them" but if I had to base my opinion solely on what's written, nothing indicates he's talking about all of them.

For what it's worth, on the side you have this:
- それはウイスとの修業中に仄めかされた、神すら辿り着けぬ境地
- Sore ha Whis to no shuugyouchuu ni honomekasareta, kami sura tadoritsukenu kyouchi
- This is what Whis hinted at during his lessons, a state that even Gods struggle to reach

So it could also be that it's talking about the technique, rather than Goku himself. As in, "This is the power/technique that is beyond even most Gods of Destruction" if you get what I mean.

It’s all the gods. That’s the reason they say surpass a god of destruction, instead of a specific one. They mean the level in general. It would be weird as hell to be a specific god.

That and Japanese with plurers. Before 118 got its official title, there was debate if it was 'Vanishing Universe' or "Vanishing Universes'.

[MagmonKai]

Since Goku is now in the realm of the hakaishins do you think Whis would let Beerus and Goku fight? I mean Vados and Whis wouldn't let Beerus and Champa fight, maybe now that Goku is so strong we might not ever see them fight in a serious 100% battle. In fact, the only reason Goku and Jiren are able to fight is because they are in the World of the Void, if they fought in the universe it could explode from their punches.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Since Goku is now in the realm of the hakaishins do you think Whis would let Beerus and Goku fight? I mean Vados and Whis wouldn't let Beerus and Champa fight, maybe now that Goku is so strong we might not ever see them fight in a serious 100% battle. In fact, the only reason Goku and Jiren are able to fight is because they are in the World of the Void, if they fought in the universe it could explode from their punches.

I guess it depends on if Ultra Instinct Goku's fighting would trigger Beerus's natural Hakai Energy to cause havoc or not.

We have to remember that it seems to be the specific properties of a Hakaishin's Hakai Energy that causes wanton destruction and erasure, rather than how powerful this God Ki makes them.

It's possible that, because the Ultra Instinct doesn't put out massive Ki that would clash with Hakai Energy, Goku could feasibly fight with Beerus without the latter causing too much destruction.

Of course, it's unlikely we'll see this happen either way because of the show ending.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The fact that we never got to see someone punch a universe out of existence saddens me.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Here's some context of the translations from the V-Jump magazine about Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku:



(copying and pasting a response a Japanese translator made when I asked him whether or not MUI Goku surpasses every hakaishin)

It seems to be more of a general thing, as in that new power of Goku surpasses that of a God of Destruction, implied an average one I guess.

- それは破壊神をも超越する力！
- Sore wa hakaishin wo mo chouetsu suru chikara !

I would translate it as "This is the power that surpasses even that of a God of Destruction's !".

If they had really wanted to say that he had surpassed all of them they could've added something like 破壊神達 (Hakaishin-tachi / Gods of Destruction) or 全員の破壊神 (Zenin no Hakaishin / All the Gods of Destruction), but there's no plural indicator or anything there.

Anyway, it all depends on whether the author believes all the Gods of Destruction are at roughly the same level or not. If he does then you could understand that sentence as "He surpassed all of them" but if I had to base my opinion solely on what's written, nothing indicates he's talking about all of them.

For what it's worth, on the side you have this:
- それはウイスとの修業中に仄めかされた、神すら辿り着けぬ境地
- Sore ha Whis to no shuugyouchuu ni honomekasareta, kami sura tadoritsukenu kyouchi
- This is what Whis hinted at during his lessons, a state that even Gods struggle to reach

So it could also be that it's talking about the technique, rather than Goku himself. As in, "This is the power/technique that is beyond even most Gods of Destruction" if you get what I mean.

It’s all the gods. That’s the reason they say surpass a god of destruction, instead of a specific one. They mean the level in general. It would be weird as hell to be a specific god.

That and Japanese with plurers. Before 118 got its official title, there was debate if it was 'Vanishing Universe' or "Vanishing Universes'.

Oh yeah I forgot about Japanese with plurals. Herms did say something about that. So we won’t see “gods of destruction” even if that is what they meant.

[buutenks]

Pretty sure it means surpassing the level of GoD. We will see in the episode tho, either 129 or 130.

The fact that we never got to see someone punch a universe out of existence saddens me.

Toppo would have hakaied an entire universe or more had they not been in the world of the void, so it isnt so bad.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Pretty sure it means surpassing the level of GoD. We will see in the episode tho, either 129 or 130.

The fact that we never got to see someone punch a universe out of existence saddens me.

Toppo would have hakaied an entire universe or more had they not been in the world of the void, so it isnt so bad.

That is true, the world of void is infinite in size and toppo casually Remodeled it with a simple hakai.

[SayianBeyondGod]

It’s all the gods. That’s the reason they say surpass a god of destruction, instead of a specific one. They mean the level in general. It would be weird as hell to be a specific god.

It's like you negelected the entire context of the translations and went back with your headcanon. It's translated and I quote " This is the power that surpasses even that of a god of destruction's" if the author really intended for it to be all of them then it would've been easily translated to Gods of Destruction or all of the Gods of Destructions. Even in Dragon ball super manga 28, many times similar wording with plurals was used when it came to naming multiple hakaishins, so it's clear that that statement does not suggest every Hakaishin. Even my translator whom understands Japanese context agrees on me with this. The key word is "a" which is pointing out to a singular kind of God of Destruction not all. Hakaishins aren't even consistent wth power nor they're on pair with eacthother doesn't make sense to say level anyways, so I don't see how it's weirder than your idea. I presume this Hakaishin is at least average, even you conconded hakaishins aren't consistent with power a couple pages ago. Further context show that it's also talking about the technique rather than Goku as it was claimed that it was a state Gods struggle to reach. Jiren for example in the official Toei site has been described to be in the domain of a God of Destruction, even though he's stated surpass at least Belmod. It the same time it just shows how surpassing a single God of Destruction doesn't put anyone outside their domain or level.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Just to clarify shaking or altering the world of void is only a infinite 3D or maybe infinite 4D feat due to only affects a certain amount of dimensions on a scale depending if the World of Void has infinite time or just space(I'm not talking about the arena alone). This does not make Toppo, Jiren or UI Goku omnipotent in anyway or limitless. These kinds of feats aren't really too special or impressive compared to what some of the time breakers can do btw so it's not like these feats are new expect appearing in mainstream canon.

[Bullza]

Shouldn't he have already surpassed a God of Destruction though?

[wolflonnie]

I feel like these statements are vague because Toriyama still hasn't decided how to go with Beerus. So they say "this power surpasses a GoD!" so the fans are still in the dark about a possible comparison between Goku and him.
I personally like the idea of Jiren (and now Goku) having finally surpassed the GoD realm, and staying in-between that tier and the angel tier. It's about DAMN time, and it would feel climatic for this final battle, if that was the case.
I already had an hard time accepting ridicoulous stuff like Beerus being on SSB Vegetto's level, being STILL miles above KKx10 SSB Goku, etc. So I don't want to think that Toriyama STILL considers him stronger than complete UI Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It’s all the gods. That’s the reason they say surpass a god of destruction, instead of a specific one. They mean the level in general. It would be weird as hell to be a specific god.

It's like you negelected the entire context of the translations and went back with your headcanon. It's translated and I quote " This is the power that surpasses even that of a god of destruction's" if the author really intended for it to be all of them then it would've been easily translated to Gods of Destruction or all of the Gods of Destructions. Even in Dragon ball super manga 28, many times similar wording with plurals was used when it came to naming multiple hakaishins, so it's clear that that statement does not suggest every Hakaishin. Even my translator whom understands Japanese context agrees on me with this. The key word is "a" which is pointing out to a singular kind of God of Destruction not all. Hakaishins aren't even consistent wth power nor they're on pair with eacthother doesn't make sense to say level anyways, so I don't see how it's weirder than your idea. I presume this Hakaishin is at least average, even you conconded hakaishins aren't consistent with power a couple pages ago. Further context show that it's also talking about the technique rather than Goku as it was claimed that it was a state Gods struggle to reach. Jiren for example in the official Toei site has been described to be in the domain of a God of Destruction, even though he's stated surpass at least Belmod. It the same time it just shows how surpassing a single God of Destruction doesn't put anyone outside their domain or level.

And I think you don’t know how Japanese works here. You will never see plurals when translating the spoilers. It has been the case for many things, the most recently, when both universe 6 and 2 got erased it was only translated as “vanishing universe”. Maybe herms can clarify this for you.

[Hugo Boss]

Can we use Goku not fainting after Rummshi's battle roar as a way to gauge his Base power?

I take that as a way to tell Goku is not that far behind the Gods of Destruction in the manga, so it’s a way to gauge his overall power.

Shouldn't he have already surpassed a God of Destruction though?

Since Vegeta defeated one and Goku will use a even stronger form, I would say that much is expected. This is Dragon Ball being Dragon Ball.

[Legion]

This is where they got their impression from. How could you possibly deny these statements?

And there is NO evidence to the contrary! None, nope, zero. There are only fans assuming that because he’s a newbie and needed time charging up his hakai energy at first. That is all. Nothing to do with power and doesn’t prove anything.

You are assuming all the Gods are at the same level. Never confirmed or implied, especially in the anime. It's like to say that the super saiyans are at the same level because they are super saiyans. Nonsense. If Beerus said that Vegeta can be a candidate God in another universe it's mean that some Gods are stronger than other Gods. And no, in that battle royal in the manga, the Gods weren't equal at all (also, a simple 1vs1 fight is far better and more clear than a battle royal).

Toppo is no different from an Hakaishin as in he is useing the same kind of power which is destruction energy not that he is necessarily in the same ball park as the Gods. You are really stretching that statement. Toppo never acted like if is strong as Belmod in both anime and manga.

So far you guys have no valid argument, so peace.

[Marlowe89]

Shouldn't he have already surpassed a God of Destruction though?

He was probably within that general domain, which means he could have already surpassed the weaker Gods of Destruction. I think what the scans mean though - at least in context - is that Goku will be surpassing that realm altogether with mastered Ultra Instinct.

Whether that means he'll be surpassing Beerus depends entirely on how strong the latter is compared to the other Gods of Destruction in the first place, but I would assume Beerus isn't that much stronger than most of the others.

[SayianBeyondGod]

It’s all the gods. That’s the reason they say surpass a god of destruction, instead of a specific one. They mean the level in general. It would be weird as hell to be a specific god.

It's like you negelected the entire context of the translations and went back with your headcanon. It's translated and I quote " This is the power that surpasses even that of a god of destruction's" if the author really intended for it to be all of them then it would've been easily translated to Gods of Destruction or all of the Gods of Destructions. Even in Dragon ball super manga 28, many times similar wording with plurals was used when it came to naming multiple hakaishins, so it's clear that that statement does not suggest every Hakaishin. Even my translator whom understands Japanese context agrees on me with this. The key word is "a" which is pointing out to a singular kind of God of Destruction not all. Hakaishins aren't even consistent wth power nor they're on pair with eacthother doesn't make sense to say level anyways, so I don't see how it's weirder than your idea. I presume this Hakaishin is at least average, even you conconded hakaishins aren't consistent with power a couple pages ago. Further context show that it's also talking about the technique rather than Goku as it was claimed that it was a state Gods struggle to reach. Jiren for example in the official Toei site has been described to be in the domain of a God of Destruction, even though he's stated surpass at least Belmod. It the same time it just shows how surpassing a single God of Destruction doesn't put anyone outside their domain or level.

And I think you don’t know how Japanese works here. You will never see plurals when translating the spoilers. It has been the case for many things, the most recently, when both universe 6 and 2 got erased it was only translated as “vanishing universe”. Maybe herms can clarify this for you.

Nor do you, If they had really wanted to say that he had surpassed all of them they could've added something like 破壊神達 (Hakaishin-tachi / Gods of Destruction) or 全員の破壊神 (Zenin no Hakaishin / All the Gods of Destruction). This is what a person that speaks Japanese specifically told me, so Japanese language do use plurals. Again in Dragon ball super manga 28 they literally use plurals to refer to hakaishins, so why can't they in a V-Jump magazine. You're making me repeat arguments that are already represented.

[TheUltimateNinja]

At this point it's starting to look like people will keep denying Goku is far beyond Beerus even if he one shots him at the end of the series.

[Bullza]

At this point it's starting to look like people will keep denying Goku is far beyond Beerus even if he one shots him at the end of the series.

Well Beerus was pretty good. He has some limited version of Ultra Instinct as well and was doing just fine against multiple Gods of Destruction at once.