Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

Kefla's Super Saiyan 2 is the same thing that Kale used after mastering her Berserk power.

That begs the question of “What’s Kafla’s lime green SSJ supposed to be then?”

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It's supposed to be Kale's normal Berserk form except controlled. The one Kale was in before powering up after Caulifla's speech.

[Miracles]

Similar to what? Either way, this just proves there's no objective confirmation that Goku surpass Beerus. At best you can say they near or rival each other, considering Beerus questions whether or not Goku surpass him.

Exactly.

This also blows the fandom assumptions about Jiren surpassing all godS instead of what the anime and manga stated about Jiren just surpassing his god.

[Helios518]

It's supposed to be Kale's normal Berserk form except controlled. The one Kale was in before powering up after Caulifla's speech.

You're talking about the weaker one that debuted in 101? If so, that one is not lime-green like Kafla's SSJ.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Except that's not what I'm talking about. The second before Kale powers up after Caulifla's speech when they fight SSJ2 Goku, she's just shown in her regular Berserker state, except she isn't berserk. Then she powers up.

[Helios518]

Except that's not what I'm talking about. The second before Kale powers up after Caulifla's speech when they fight SSJ2 Goku, she's just shown in her regular Berserker state, except she isn't berserk. Then she powers up.

This one?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Yes, that's the one. She becomes SSJ2 right after that.

[Helios518]

Yes, that's the one. She becomes SSJ2 right after that.

Not going to lie, that seems like hair-splitting territory to think Kale's been in the form for one second, and Toei expected anybody to understand that it. I'm pretty sure, that bit of her transformed but not powered up was just for stylistic effect considering the shot right after, still has her looking like Broli.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Kenneth La Torre]

Wonder what new villian will surpass jiren, who is above hakaishin level? Or maybe the new opponent doesn’t have to be that strong, just strong enought to give a powered up ssb a lot of trouble. Lets see where toriyama leads with this

[SayianBeyondGod]

Right or wrong, this person you know that you keep referencing isn't a trusted translator until they've had their translations vetted.

Are you telling me the fact he goes into more deeper context than herms did with the kanjis used in the scan, is negligible to credibility. Unless you've got objective reason to dispute the translations I provided then you really don't have any bias to dismiss it. It's like you're committing the genetic fallacy here, in which you attack the source or origin of information, rather than the information itself. No one that speaks Japanese in a high degree has challenged some of Herms translator yet, people are buying it. Despite some of his translations been contradicted by Ken Xyro for example whom turned out to be more correct with spoilers.

Did you miss the part where I said "right or wrong"? The first part? You can't call an unknown entity a "trusted" translator. I said nothing more, and nothing less. They're not trusted by anybody but you; the only one who even knows this person is you. Calling them trusted is a misleading and false attempt to give them credibility they don't have. Right or wrong.

By the way, despite your claim(which had nothing to do with what I said), Herms has been vetted and backed up by other people who speak Japanese; including KenXyro, who you're erroneously implying is better.

But you claimed my translator can't be trusted unless his translations are vetted like if you think reputation only matters. So in other words you find the context of information provided negligible, but attack the source itself hence you'll be committing the genetic fallacy. As I said the fact he goes into context with the kanji used rather than simply claiming this means that, mean he's credible as he know what he's talking about. So he's trusted on that alone, regardless of whom he is.

You don't really know who the translator is so there's no point of disputing the fact he's a trusted source. He has a good reputation on translations on SpaceBattles so this is not a mislead attempt.

My latter claim was indeed relevant to the discussion as I'm pointing out why your logic can go wrong at times. Not all of Herms translations are 100% correct hence why it's important to attack the information rather than source. There's literally times where ken xyro translations ended up being more right than Herms, not to show that either are more credible btw. I never implied that ken xyro is more credible but rather at times he's more correct. Which just shows you can't judge information from source alone.

[Bullza]

Wonder what new villian will surpass jiren, who is above hakaishin level? Or maybe the new opponent doesn’t have to be that strong, just strong enought to give a powered up ssb a lot of trouble. Lets see where toriyama leads with this

It's gotta be that guy who killed Jiren's family. At the time I found it odd they'd go out of their way to obscure what he looks like.

It's probably gonna be him.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Wonder what new villian will surpass jiren, who is above hakaishin level? Or maybe the new opponent doesn’t have to be that strong, just strong enought to give a powered up ssb a lot of trouble. Lets see where toriyama leads with this

It's gotta be that guy who killed Jiren's family. At the time I found it odd they'd go out of their way to obscure what he looks like.

It's probably gonna be him.

I doubt it. He seemed to be only relevant before jiren aquired hakaishin+ power. But who knows.

[brett wheeler]

apparently toriyama did say at one point that merged zamasu is about as strong as 2 ssb's so him being GoD tier is doubtful, you could say he meant initial but I doubt corrupt gave him that big a boost considering ssb vegito toyed around and only tried as much as jiren has recently, plus spirit bomb sword trunks beat merged zamasu and I doubt he was GoD tier, so more than likely merged zamasu is probably not GoD tier.

Vegetto didn't toy with him at all.

Based on what I remember from "Z", the manga, and people's comments, it seems as though SSB Vegito actually had more trouble with Corrupted Merged Zamasu than SS Vegito did with Buuhan because of the immortality and massive strength that Merged Zamasu possessed.

It was mostly the immortality, like I said vegito more or less tried as much as jiren has in the tournament up until this point witch isn't much, and on a lower lvl, vegito blue once using his full power defused, and to top it off once he used his full power he was positive he would win he even yelled it was over before defusing, so in terms of power vegito had a lot more than merged zamasu, and to top it off it seems jiren suppressed was stronger than merged zamasu so even if MZ and vegito blue where equals jiren suppressed is stronger, and since fp jiren and MUI goku are only slightly above beerus maby than MZ and vegito blue are not GOD tier just really really strong.

[brett wheeler]

Wonder what new villian will surpass jiren, who is above hakaishin level? Or maybe the new opponent doesn’t have to be that strong, just strong enought to give a powered up ssb a lot of trouble. Lets see where toriyama leads with this

It's gotta be that guy who killed Jiren's family. At the time I found it odd they'd go out of their way to obscure what he looks like.

It's probably gonna be him.

I doubt it. He seemed to be only relevant before jiren aquired hakaishin+ power. But who knows.

I agree it's really unlikely, possible, but unlikely.

[Simere]

But you claimed my translator can't be trusted unless his translations are vetted like if you think reputation only matters.

That's right. Reputation is trust.

So in other words you find the context of information provided negligible, but attack the source itself hence you'll be committing the genetic fallacy.

I'm not "attacking" anything but the idea that this unknown person is trusted. You can tell I'm not attacking his translation because I've said "Right or wrong" four times now. Should I say it again? Right or wrong, he's not trusted.

As I said the fact he goes into context with the kanji used rather than simply claiming this means that, mean he's credible as he know what he's talking about. So he's trusted on that alone, regardless of whom he is.

Anyone can pose themselves as an expert to an ignorant audience; becoming trusted requires either repeated verification of your claims, or the endorsement of your peers.

You don't really know who the translator is so there's no point of disputing the fact he's a trusted source. He has a good reputation on translations on SpaceBattles so this is not a mislead attempt.

It's not that I don't know the translator, no one does but you. Not knowing the translator is entirely the point of disputing that he's trusted. Who is he on SpaceBattles? Atreidestrooper?

[SayianBeyondGod]

That's right. Reputation is trust.

If while neglecting information or argument, then it's wrong. As I explain if you're going to only attack the source rather than information then it falls under the genetic fallacy. Reputation isn't the only thing that matter or takes a higher presence than the information presented.

I'm not "attacking" anything but the idea that this unknown person is trusted. You can tell I'm not attacking his translation because I've said "Right or wrong" four times now. Should I say it again? Right or wrong, he's not trusted.

Again what the information should is were the credibility remains not the person itself, cause again you'll be committing the genetic fallacy. I'm responding to the fact that you think reputation of a translator only matters and not the information, rather than whether he's right or wrong objectively. Again, you have no evidence to dismiss the translator credibility, as I said he's has a credible reputation on SpaceBattles and went as far as putting a lot of context into his argument. By your logic I can dismiss any evidence or information from any expert because I subjectively never heard of his reputation.

Anyone can pose themselves as an expert to an ignorant audience; becoming trusted requires either repeated verification of your claims, or the endorsement of your peers.

This doesn't explain how he was able to go into context such as breaking apart the kanjis or know what he's talking about. It's not like he's trying to sound smart. As I said, trust is mostly on the information presented.

It's not that I don't know the translator, no one does but you. Not knowing the translator is entirely the point of disputing that he's trusted. Who is he on SpaceBattles? Atreidestrooper?

Then you shouldn't presumbly try to objectively claim the translator is untrusted, to begin with. Again you don't know the translator, hence you have no basis to dimiss any credibility or straight up claim he's untrusted. It's a logical fallacy to dimiss any expert base of the fact you never heard his reputataion. It's Featherine on SpaceBattles.

[Simere]

That's right. Reputation is trust.

If while neglecting information or argument, then it's wrong. As I explain if you're going to only attack the source rather than information then it falls under the genetic fallacy. Reputation isn't the only thing that matter or takes a higher presence than the information presented.

I'm not addressing his translation at all. I've not said one word about it but you won't stop accusing me of attacking him. You. I'm attacking you. Your understanding of English, not his understanding of Japanese.

This doesn't explain how he was able to go into context such as breaking apart the kanjis or know what he's talking about.

Your friend appears to know what he's talking about. Do you trust everyone who appears to know what they're talking about?

Again, you have no evidence to dismiss the translator credibility. [...] By your logic I can dismiss any evidence or information from any expert because I subjectively never heard of his reputation.

As I said, it's not that I'm some ignorant schmuck who's never heard of a reputable expert; you've refused to tell us who this person is. Withholding the identity of someone is perfectly solid grounds for disputing that they're trusted.

"I got this from a trusted translator."
"Who?"
"I"m not going to tell you. But he's trusted."
"You can't trust an unknown person."
"So you're saying he's wrong?"
"No. Wrong or right has nothing to do with it."
"Genetic fallacy."

It's Featherine on SpaceBattles.

Well, thank you for this at least. I'm curious about him now. Right away I see that he disputed what our trusted translators said in regards to the scene explaining Zeno's destructive powers. I recall this argument. It was argued that "sekai" in the context Whis said it could only mean all of existence. It would've been nice if he came over here and argued this directly; I would've liked to see the discussion that would have sprung from it.

By the way, your friend seemed to be under the impression Herms translated what was in the Fact Checker thread. Though the entry is under his name, EmmaWinters did that particular writeup and used the translation provided by DragonTeam.

[SayianBeyondGod]

I'm not addressing his translation at all. I've not said one word about it but you won't stop accusing me of attacking him. You. I'm attacking you. Your understanding of English, not his understanding of Japanese.

I'm aware of that, I'm arguing the fact you think reputations has more credibility than one's information.

Your friend appears to know what he's talking about. Do you trust everyone who appears to know what they're talking about?

If they can if they can elaborate in great context then they tend to be credible. Especially they prove what they're arguing, like these kanjis in the passage mean this or this can be interpreted as this since it cuts off making it a separate statement.

As I said, it's not that I'm some ignorant schmuck who's never heard of a reputable expert; you've refused to tell us who this person is. Withholding the identity of someone is perfectly solid grounds for disputing that they're trusted.

I don't believe you are, it's your agenda that credibility only solely depend on the person rather than information presented, hence why there's a logical fallacy about it. I never exposed whom the person is considering no one asked and not everyone here visits SpaceBattles. I don't think this shows a lack of credibility if I hold the identity since it`ll be a fallacy in logical to commit.

Well, thank you for this at least. I'm curious about him now. Right away I see that he disputed what our trusted translators said in regards to the scene explaining Zeno's destructive powers. I recall this argument. It was argued that "sekai" in the context Whis said it could only mean all of existence. It would've been nice if he came over here and argued this directly; I would've liked to see the discussion that would have sprung from it.

Well, that's him. I have family that can speak Japanese but I find him more willing to translate for me and he goes in more context. He's a very strictly objective person if you ask me which is why I trust him. We met from a Jiren vs Superman thread but in which he dismissed most arguments of mine about Beerus or Goku being FTL(I don't think he thinks they're not FTL but rather what i presented), he also disagreed about Jiren being 3D to 4D since he shook the world of void. He was passive agressive towards me at the start, so i doubt his translations are going to be intentional to support my beliefs.

I don't think he's willing to come here, if I ask him nicely. He hasn't kept up to date with super so far anyway he's a dozen episode back in the tournament of power.

[Sora Saiyan]

I'm not addressing his translation at all. I've not said one word about it but you won't stop accusing me of attacking him. You. I'm attacking you. Your understanding of English, not his understanding of Japanese.

I'm aware of that, I'm arguing the fact you think reputations has more credibility than one's information.

I don’t know what your friends view on “perfect” Japanese is, but when he was asked if he knows Japanese.

I do, not perfect, but I do.

When somebody jokingly poked fun in response.

I take no offense to that, it's the truth, I'm far from perfect.
But it's not like you need perfect japanese to understand what's going on in Dragon Ball of all things. And again, anyone with a tiny bit of knowledge would know that what Vegeta said was extremely badly translated, it kind of feels like the guy didn't know what Vegeta said and filled up the gap with whatever he felt was good.

Again, no idea what his view on perfect Japanese is, and if you want to truly make a comparison between him and Herms? But if so it’s worth noting that Herms passed the highest level of the Japanese language proficiency test. From what I’ve read read about this before, passing JLPT N1 (highest level) means that the person is considered fluent in Japanese in Japan.

[AvatarReiko]

How strong are the aforementioned characters in relation to one another? Grey Buu, Good Buu, SSJ3 Goku(alive) and SSJ Gotenks(Pre)