Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:26 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Then what's the deal with Freeza's Golden form? He shouldn't be equal to Goku if his final form is close to SS tier.
Sure he can. In the manga, Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form is on another level compared to what it was in Resurrection 'F' because he completed it since then. On top of that, it's specifically implied in the anime that Freeza was holding back against base Goku during the same arc.
Yet he needed to use cheap tacticts to even hit base Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:29 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Then what's the deal with Freeza's Golden form? He shouldn't be equal to Goku if his final form is close to SS tier.
Sure he can. In the manga, Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form is on another level compared to what it was in Resurrection 'F' because he completed it since then. On top of that, it's specifically implied in the anime that Freeza was holding back against base Goku during the same arc.

He definitely isn't base tier and this month's chapter was pretty clear-cut about that.
It's also perfectly possible that SSB's power relative to Goku and Vegeta in their base forms has grown with training, thus closing the gap Golden Freeza's power gives to Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:59 pm

Just reread the chapter, Freeza outright states that he can defeat Kale if he takes her seriously, so he is stronger than her by that moment, but one second later she gets stronger again then freeza is speechless, so at the end of the chapter she must be stronger than him and goku.

By the way, did freeza´s kick cause goku to drop out of blue?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:59 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Then what's the deal with Freeza's Golden form? He shouldn't be equal to Goku if his final form is close to SS tier.
Sure he can. In the manga, Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form is on another level compared to what it was in Resurrection 'F' because he completed it since then. On top of that, it's specifically implied in the anime that Freeza was holding back against base Goku during the same arc.

He definitely isn't base tier and this month's chapter was pretty clear-cut about that.
It's also perfectly possible that SSB's power relative to Goku and Vegeta in their base forms has grown with training, thus closing the gap Golden Freeza's power gives to Freeza.
I guess this can be a possibility but it has never been implied though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:43 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
Sure he can. In the manga, Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form is on another level compared to what it was in Resurrection 'F' because he completed it since then. On top of that, it's specifically implied in the anime that Freeza was holding back against base Goku during the same arc.

He definitely isn't base tier and this month's chapter was pretty clear-cut about that.
It's also perfectly possible that SSB's power relative to Goku and Vegeta in their base forms has grown with training, thus closing the gap Golden Freeza's power gives to Freeza.
I guess this can be a possibility but it has never been implied though.
I'd agree that was the case, since Goku's been training for several years since then (counting the Room of Time during the Champa Arc) while Freeza was stuck in hell, but in the recruitment chapters they fight and both are equally tired-hurt, which implies they're equal-ish in strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:44 am

One thing I’ve found pretty interesting, only when tracking back to RoF (movie), is that SSJ Caulifla (manga) seems to only be around base Goku level. In fact I’d say she actually falls below that, as in RoF Goku was handling Freeza so easily it was actually pretty scary, where as in the manga SSJ Caulifla was having a decent skirmish with Freeza, even though in the end she had the upper hand, she was still beat up a little. I know Freeza used different tactics against her, but even so, base Goku was untouchable against Freeza in the movie version of RoF.

So basically I’m curious as to where she would actually stand in her SSJ form when using the RoF movie to fill in the missing arc in the manga.

We know that First form Freeza was well ahead of SSJ Gohan at that point, and we know that everybody was basically too scared to make a move against Freeza, so they resorted to being a beacon for Goku and Vegeta. I’d like to think Piccolo wouldn’t be a total pushover in RoF, even if he had gotten weaker I would still like to believe he wouldn’t be too much below his Cell games iteration. Which means Gohan would be around his Cell games self too.

Anyway now I’ve rambled on, I think my standing for the characters are as follows. Btw I’m just gonna go with Freeza and Goku increasing power at the same rate as each other, so the gap between their RoF selves is the same in the ToP. Once again these are the movie version mixed with the manga.

ToP Base Goku >= SSJ Caulifla > ToP Final form Freeza > RoF base Goku > RoF Final form Freeza > RoF First form Freeza > Cell games SSJ Gohan >= RoF SSJ Gohan > Cell games Piccolo > RoF Piccolo.

I think that basically covers what I was thinking, I do believe that Base Goku should be stronger than SSJ Caulifla, but then there’s the whole Vegeta vs Cabba issue, which would only put Goku above Caulifla in the same form. I guess the mangas version of RoF probably doesn’t follow the movie perfectly, the scale is just off, or Freeza gained more power in his base form than Goku did. I dunno.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:05 pm

I ran the numbers and base Kale > SS Caulifla just can't work in the anime. Especially since SS2 Goku ~ Controlled SSB Kale (The one she gains when defeating the 4 Pride Troopers). Unless that SS form is x2 times base but it seems unlikely as hell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote:I ran the numbers and base Kale > SS Caulifla just can't work in the anime. Especially since SS2 Goku ~ Controlled SSB Kale (The one she gains when defeating the 4 Pride Troopers). Unless that SS form is x2 times base but it seems unlikely as hell.
In the anime, Kale simply being on the same general level as the others in base form when fully confident and ready to fight seems simpler and easier to follow.

It's her SS forms that are a bit weird. For example, he controlled regular green-haired SS form (not the Berserk one, the one she fought in alongside Caulifla against SS2 Goku that's slightly buffer than her normal state but not overly so) looks to be around as strong as SS2, and her SS2 form (at least, that's supposedly the form's name according to supplementary info) is extremely tall and buff but not Broly-level and is strong enough to tangle with SSG Goku albeit at great disadvantage.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:42 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote:One thing I’ve found pretty interesting, only when tracking back to RoF (movie), is that SSJ Caulifla (manga) seems to only be around base Goku level. In fact I’d say she actually falls below that, as in RoF Goku was handling Freeza so easily it was actually pretty scary, where as in the manga SSJ Caulifla was having a decent skirmish with Freeza, even though in the end she had the upper hand, she was still beat up a little. I know Freeza used different tactics against her, but even so, base Goku was untouchable against Freeza in the movie version of RoF.

So basically I’m curious as to where she would actually stand in her SSJ form when using the RoF movie to fill in the missing arc in the manga.

We know that First form Freeza was well ahead of SSJ Gohan at that point, and we know that everybody was basically too scared to make a move against Freeza, so they resorted to being a beacon for Goku and Vegeta. I’d like to think Piccolo wouldn’t be a total pushover in RoF, even if he had gotten weaker I would still like to believe he wouldn’t be too much below his Cell games iteration. Which means Gohan would be around his Cell games self too.

Anyway now I’ve rambled on, I think my standing for the characters are as follows. Btw I’m just gonna go with Freeza and Goku increasing power at the same rate as each other, so the gap between their RoF selves is the same in the ToP. Once again these are the movie version mixed with the manga.

ToP Base Goku >= SSJ Caulifla > ToP Final form Freeza > RoF base Goku > RoF Final form Freeza > RoF First form Freeza > Cell games SSJ Gohan >= RoF SSJ Gohan > Cell games Piccolo > RoF Piccolo.

I think that basically covers what I was thinking, I do believe that Base Goku should be stronger than SSJ Caulifla, but then there’s the whole Vegeta vs Cabba issue, which would only put Goku above Caulifla in the same form. I guess the mangas version of RoF probably doesn’t follow the movie perfectly, the scale is just off, or Freeza gained more power in his base form than Goku did. I dunno.
I agree with this. Also I don't think there is a problem with base Goku being ssj Caulifla level or above considering base Kale is as well.
And with the Vegeta Cabba thing I feel that was more Vegeta trying to get Cabba to go all out rather than actually being equals.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:41 pm

dragon boss z wrote: I agree with this. Also I don't think there is a problem with base Goku being ssj Caulifla level or above considering base Kale is as well.
And with the Vegeta Cabba thing I feel that was more Vegeta trying to get Cabba to go all out rather than actually being equals.
Yeah, after giving the Cabba and Vegeta fight a quick reread in the manga it is very apparent that Vegeta has the advantage. Cabba hits Vegeta a few times, and does hardly any damage, in fact all of Vegetas scuffs are from his previous fight, but one attack from Vegeta does some notable damage to Cabba. Against SSJ Cabba he just blocks his attacks easily when he’s trying to attack, so in fact Vegeta looks to be comfortably above Cabba, and also Vegeta there would logically be a little bit below his best after the fight with Maggeta, sure he wouldn’t be a hell of a lot weaker, but he would still be a touch weaker than being totally fresh.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:38 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote: Yeah, after giving the Cabba and Vegeta fight a quick reread in the manga it is very apparent that Vegeta has the advantage.
The problem with your interpretation is that Vegeta outright told Cabba that they're more or less equal, just like in the anime. Vegeta is probably the stronger of the two but it couldn't be by that much, and their fight further corroborates this.

The reason that Kale is so far above her peers in base is most likely because she's part prodigy, part genetic anomaly. Goten and Trunks are also an exception since they're much weaker than their fathers. Otherwise, as per the dialogue itself, all the Saiyans are roughly in the same ballpark while in the same form.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:45 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: Yeah, after giving the Cabba and Vegeta fight a quick reread in the manga it is very apparent that Vegeta has the advantage.
The problem with your interpretation is that Vegeta outright told Cabba that they're more or less equal, just like in the anime. Vegeta is probably the stronger of the two but it couldn't be by that much, and their fight corroborates this.

The reason that Kale is so far above her peers in base is most likely because she's part prodigy, part genetic anomaly. Goten and Trunks are also an exception since they're much weaker than their fathers. Otherwise, as per the dialogue itself, all the Saiyans are roughly in the same ballpark while in the same form.
And once again, we run into the problem of determining where exactly that ballpark rests compared to the rest.

To think that "god-level" was the easier of the two camps to figure out, generally speaking.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:13 pm

Told yall. In both outlines Kale is clearly blue level.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:26 pm

Miracles wrote:Told yall. In both outlines Kale is clearly blue level.
She wasn't in the anime. I'd wait to see how the next chapter plays out as well before we say she is in the manga. For all we know Golden Frieza will get serious and then he'll beat her.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:40 pm

Time to make my once annual pilgrimage into this thread.

For what it's worth, I did not read the chapter thinking Freeza was substantially weaker than his 「F」 self. Mainly because it didn't occur to me to consider he'd be any different.

It still plays fine, if maybe slightly liberal with Caulifla getting in hits—but then, he says she's stronger than the Super Saitama of the past anyway. Final Form Freeza is still in control of their fight. The last thing he does in his normal form is take her gigantic blast head-on and come away only lightly scuffed up, still cocky.

He's been concerned about expending effort the whole time, so I just read his switch to Golden form afterward as realizing she might be non-trivial/take more work to beat, so he goes into the form that will allow him to do it with ease.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:44 pm

Bullza wrote:She wasn't in the anime. I'd wait to see how the next chapter plays out as well before we say she is in the manga. For all we know Golden Frieza will get serious and then he'll beat her.
The fact that Golden Freeza HAS to get serious PROVES Kale is blue tier in the manga. To add, she is even powering up some more too. :lol:
Kale is blue level in the anime too, that's why she was able to casually dismiss a blue kamehameha. Not to mention Goku couldn't even get out of her grip hence why Gohan and Piccolo were going to help.
Jiren's recoginzed Kale's power a second time while in meditation! Vegeta and Toppo stop to acknowledge her strength again! These are Blue level and higher beings and people wanna still be in denial about Kale's power?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:37 pm

Miracles wrote:Kale is blue level in the anime too, that's why she was able to casually dismiss a blue kamehameha. Not to mention Goku couldn't even get out of her grip hence why Gohan and Piccolo were going to help.
Yeah but remember that when Goku did that he did say he was only going to use a little bit more power from when he was a Super Saiyan 2. He might have been a Super Saiyan Blue but he was only putting out Super Saiyan 2 level power.

Actually the anime and manga are pretty similar. Kale becomes a Legendary Super Saiyan after Goku/Frieza starts to get an advantage on Caulifla, she then completely steam rolls Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Golden Frieza only for it to turn out they weren't being serious.

Super Saiyan God Goku had an advantage over Kale and that was when she was meant to be even more powerful than when she as in Broly mode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:39 pm

Tired SSG Goku was above Kale, way above? not that much above? almost on par? it doesn't matter, he still had the advantage even having to deal with another strong foe while being tired and almost dying against the strongest rival he ever fought, like 5 minutes ago.
A full rested SSG Goku fighting 1 vs 1, with all his attention on Kale and not also against SS2 Caulifla, would be enough. Actually tired SSB Goku held on pretty well against SS Kefla, I don't think Kale on her own could do better against a full power SSB Goku than SS Kefla. There is really no discussion about it, lame fanservice filler to evoke some old movie means nothing, also because it happened before the real fight when real power levels were displayed.

In the manga, yes, Kale is blue tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:53 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: Yeah, after giving the Cabba and Vegeta fight a quick reread in the manga it is very apparent that Vegeta has the advantage.
The problem with your interpretation is that Vegeta outright told Cabba that they're more or less equal, just like in the anime. Vegeta is probably the stronger of the two but it couldn't be by that much, and their fight further corroborates this.

The reason that Kale is so far above her peers in base is most likely because she's part prodigy, part genetic anomaly. Goten and Trunks are also an exception since they're much weaker than their fathers. Otherwise, as per the dialogue itself, all the Saiyans are roughly in the same ballpark while in the same form.
Looking at the fight Vegeta clearly had control the entire time. I don't think base Cabba is fodder to him, but I do think he is weaker. I think base Cabba and Caulifla are around android to cell tier while base Vegeta and Goku are around Cell to Buu tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:10 pm

Bullza wrote:Yeah but remember that when Goku did that he did say he was only going to use a little bit more power from when he was a Super Saiyan 2. He might have been a Super Saiyan Blue but he was only putting out Super Saiyan 2 level power.

Actually the anime and manga are pretty similar. Kale becomes a Legendary Super Saiyan after Goku/Frieza starts to get an advantage on Caulifla, she then completely steam rolls Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Golden Frieza only for it to turn out they weren't being serious.

Super Saiyan God Goku had an advantage over Kale and that was when she was meant to be even more powerful than when she as in Broly mode.
SSJG Goku was stronger against Kale after the Jiren fight. This is why Goku was able to fight a stronger Kale later. Who, earlier laughed at Goku's Blue power. It doesn't matter if Goku put out a little power, that is even more proof that Kale is Blue level. Cause Goku STILL needed more power than that from Blue to even scratch her! Same thing from the manga, the fact Freeza HAD to get serious against Kale proves she is Blue level. Cause if she wasn't Blue they wouldn't have to get serious in Blue level to take her. Especially when Kale wasn't even using all her power against Feeza and Goku either in the manga.
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