Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

This is fine, but it can also be implied that base black>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku if you read chapter 14.

What's the issue? I could see why you wouldn't like Trunks being that weak, but does it really effect the coherency of the power scale.

It's not that trunks is so weak, it's how ssj2 vegeta can be THAT MUCH stronger then ssj3 goku without any explanation or emphsis. That dosen't make sense, so having ssj2 vegeta = ssj black, but base black be FAR above ssj3 goku makes very little sense. Hence, why it's better to argue ssj black is stronger then ssj3 goku while being tied with ssj2 vegeta. Even though that's kinda bad power scailing, you can headcanon reason that the same power boost trunks used in his ssj2, vegeta did it in his ssj2. Or you can argue goku was holding back, because that can also been argued based on how the black arc went.

SS2 Vegeta surpassed SS3 Goku in the BoG arc.

[Bullza]

I just saw a comment in the manga where Trunks says that Goku Blacks Super Saiyan form is even stronger than before.

So does that mean that at some point prior the two fought and Goku Black required Super Saiyan in order to defeat Trunks and then since then he powered up so much that his Base form could never defeat Trunks?

[Jesus-is Lord]

What's the issue? I could see why you wouldn't like Trunks being that weak, but does it really effect the coherency of the power scale.

It's not that trunks is so weak, it's how ssj2 vegeta can be THAT MUCH stronger then ssj3 goku without any explanation or emphsis. That dosen't make sense, so having ssj2 vegeta = ssj black, but base black be FAR above ssj3 goku makes very little sense. Hence, why it's better to argue ssj black is stronger then ssj3 goku while being tied with ssj2 vegeta. Even though that's kinda bad power scailing, you can headcanon reason that the same power boost trunks used in his ssj2, vegeta did it in his ssj2. Or you can argue goku was holding back, because that can also been argued based on how the black arc went.

SS2 Vegeta surpassed SS3 Goku in the BoG arc.

First of all, his rage boost was stronger - it was never shown he retained that type of power in his ssj2. And from past dragon ball lore, we know rage boost tend to be temporary. Just look at Gohan through-out the sayain and freeza saga. That's first, and 2ND even IF vegeta retained that "boost". You really expect the fanbase at large to beleive he became 50x+ stronger then ssj3 goku? and you really think toyotaro would slip that type of surge in power without emphasizing it or explaining that? that's basically saying ssj2 is 100x+ stronger then his ssj form.

I re-read chapter 15. You can scale it two ways:
1.ssj2 vegeta and ssj black>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Base black>>>>ssj2 full power trunks and ssj3 goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks=ssj2 goku
OR
2. SSJ black = ssj2 vegeta>>>>>>ssj2 full power trunks and ssj3 goku > base black>>>>>>>>>>ssj2 trunks and ssj2 goku

Obviously I go with 2 for the better consitency, but toyotaro did mess up the power scailing or at least inserted some weird power scailing. Either way, it's still kinda lousy power scailing.

[Jesus-is Lord]

I just saw a comment in the manga where Trunks says that Goku Blacks Super Saiyan form is even stronger than before.

So does that mean that at some point prior the two fought and Goku Black required Super Saiyan in order to defeat Trunks and then since then he powered up so much that his Base form could never defeat Trunks?

Yes, at some point black did use ssj to defeat trunks. Though, he's powered up now to where even his base form can defeat normal ssj2 trunks though we don't know if black in base can defeat a full power ssj2 trunks - the same form trunks used against goku.

[Bullza]

In that case having now finished the volume then I'd say there is no super strong Base form in the manga. If you also consider Zamasu to be strong for a Supreme Kai but not ridiculously so then I think the order of things is meant to go

Super Saiyan Goku Black (After Zenkai boost)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku Black
Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Dabura
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Trunks
Zamasu
Shin
Base Goku | Vegeta | Trunks

When Goku fought Zamasu he powered down to a Super Saiyan which would mean Zamasu would be weaker than that but stronger than his base strength.

Zamasu could also freeze Super Saiyan Goku whereas Shin couldn't freeze Majin Buu. Obviously Zamasu is stronger than Shin but again if he's not overwhelming so then it would make sense.

[Black Hawk]

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

Ah, you're right; I'd forgotten about the illustrations in between the chapters. Indeed, Zamas kills Goku from the front, still leaving the exact nature of the assassination ambiguous. While I was offline, I'd remembered that Black used his ki blade to try to kill Gowas, so I changed my stance from a ki blast to a ki blade, which the illustration indeed supports. I'd expect that Zamas either appeared and immediately stabbed Goku before anything else happened or he briefly explained the situation in order to gloat before killing Goku. Knowing Zamas, it's most likely the latter, which leads me to believe that the nature of Black's power was different from the moment the body swap occurred, likely due to his "divine" spirit inhabiting a mortal body.

Since Trunks, who possessed the ability to use a SSJ2 upgrade equal to SSJ3, still couldn't defeat Black, I'd expect that either Black was immediately stronger than a SSJ3 or he waited until he was stronger than a SSJ3 to attack Trunks for the first time. Alternatively, he may have had to resort to SSJ1 to defeat Trunks initially before powering up to the extent that his base exceeded SSJ3. With regard to multipliers, I'd expect that, by the time Black fought evenly with Vegeta, his base was equal to SSJ Red and his SSJ1 was equal to SS Blue's normal power.

Re: The Power Scale

I think the whole thing makes sense if we assume Vegeta somehow retained his "ORE NO BURUMA!!!11ONE1" boost and could use it separately from his standard SSJ2 form at will and that the same applies to Trunks' upgraded SSJ2 equal to a SSJ3.

Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ3 Goku = Upgraded SSJ2 Trunks < Black < SSJ1 Black < Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta < Rejuvenated Black = SSJ Red Goku/Vegeta < Rejuvenated SSJ1 Black = SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta < SSJ Rosé Black < SSJ Red to Blue Vegeta ~ Completed SSJ Blue Goku = Merged Zamas < SSJ Blue Vegetto

Something to that effect, I suppose.

Perhaps Zamas, a "divine" being, inhabiting a mortal body changed the functionality of that body's power to be akin to the presumably retconned method by which SSJ Red powered base and SSJ Blue worked with regard to one another. Black's base became equal to a SSJ Red and his powering up into SSJ1 was equivalent to SSJ Blue before he reached a new level of power Goku's body didn't have yet with SSJ Rosé.

[RandomGuy96]

Zamasu could also freeze Super Saiyan Goku whereas Shin couldn't freeze Majin Buu. Obviously Zamasu is stronger than Shin but again if he's not overwhelming so then it would make sense.

He also beat on SS Goku after paralyzing him. He was able to damage him with repeated hits, but not either instantly kill him or fail to cause any harm, so he's probably moderately weaker than SS1 Goku. Around the Buu arc SS1s maybe. His paralysis seems weird though, as despite outright admitting inferiority to SS1 Goku in their first bout, in their second bout SSG Goku still bothers to dodge it and acts if it would work on him (though his power being drained by the Mafuba, by his own admission, surely played a part in that).

Knowing Zamas, it's most likely the latter, which leads me to believe that the nature of Black's power was different from the moment the body swap occurred, likely due to his "divine" spirit inhabiting a mortal body.

Since Trunks, who possessed the ability to use a SSJ2 upgrade equal to SSJ3, still couldn't defeat Black, I'd expect that either Black was immediately stronger than a SSJ3 or he waited until he was stronger than a SSJ3 to attack Trunks for the first time. Alternatively, he may have had to resort to SSJ1 to defeat Trunks initially before powering up to the extent that his base exceeded SSJ3. With regard to multipliers, I'd expect that, by the time Black fought evenly with Vegeta, his base was equal to SSJ Red and his SSJ1 was equal to SS Blue's normal power.

Re: The Power Scale

I think the whole thing makes sense if we assume Vegeta somehow retained his "ORE NO BURUMA!!!11ONE1" boost and could use it separately from his standard SSJ2 form at will and that the same applies to Trunks' upgraded SSJ2 equal to a SSJ3.

Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ3 Goku = Upgraded SSJ2 Trunks < Black < SSJ1 Black < Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta < Rejuvenated Black = SSJ Red Goku/Vegeta < Rejuvenated SSJ1 Black = SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta < SSJ Rosé Black < SSJ Red to Blue Vegeta ~ Completed SSJ Blue Goku = Merged Zamas < SSJ Blue Vegetto

Something to that effect, I suppose.

Something like that. Assuming Zamasu's soul caused power fluctuations in Goku's base form from the beginning also nicely solves the issue of Black's base power throwing the scale off (since his SS and SSB/R aren't necessarily the same boost as anyone else's relative to his base).

[dragon boss z]

Zamasu could also freeze Super Saiyan Goku whereas Shin couldn't freeze Majin Buu. Obviously Zamasu is stronger than Shin but again if he's not overwhelming so then it would make sense.

He also beat on SS Goku after paralyzing him. He was able to damage him with repeated hits, but not either instantly kill him or fail to cause any harm, so he's probably moderately weaker than SS1 Goku. Around the Buu arc SS1s maybe. His paralysis seems weird though, as despite outright admitting inferiority to SS1 Goku in their first bout, in their second bout SSG Goku still bothers to dodge it and acts if it would work on him (though his power being drained by the Mafuba, by his own admission, surely played a part in that).

I think it's worth noting Buu himself had magic power, so that could possibly counter supreme Kai magic.

[ZombieVito]

In that case having now finished the volume then I'd say there is no super strong Base form in the manga. If you also consider Zamasu to be strong for a Supreme Kai but not ridiculously so then I think the order of things is meant to go

Super Saiyan Goku Black (After Zenkai boost)
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku Black
Base Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Dabura
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta | Trunks
Zamasu
Shin
Base Goku | Vegeta | Trunks

When Goku fought Zamasu he powered down to a Super Saiyan which would mean Zamasu would be weaker than that but stronger than his base strength.

Zamasu could also freeze Super Saiyan Goku whereas Shin couldn't freeze Majin Buu. Obviously Zamasu is stronger than Shin but again if he's not overwhelming so then it would make sense.

Base Goku is stronger than Shin.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

Ah, you're right; I'd forgotten about the illustrations in between the chapters. Indeed, Zamas kills Goku from the front, still leaving the exact nature of the assassination ambiguous. While I was offline, I'd remembered that Black used his ki blade to try to kill Gowas, so I changed my stance from a ki blast to a ki blade, which the illustration indeed supports. I'd expect that Zamas either appeared and immediately stabbed Goku before anything else happened or he briefly explained the situation in order to gloat before killing Goku. Knowing Zamas, it's most likely the latter, which leads me to believe that the nature of Black's power was different from the moment the body swap occurred, likely due to his "divine" spirit inhabiting a mortal body.

Since Trunks, who possessed the ability to use a SSJ2 upgrade equal to SSJ3, still couldn't defeat Black, I'd expect that either Black was immediately stronger than a SSJ3 or he waited until he was stronger than a SSJ3 to attack Trunks for the first time. Alternatively, he may have had to resort to SSJ1 to defeat Trunks initially before powering up to the extent that his base exceeded SSJ3. With regard to multipliers, I'd expect that, by the time Black fought evenly with Vegeta, his base was equal to SSJ Red and his SSJ1 was equal to SS Blue's normal power.

Re: The Power Scale

I think the whole thing makes sense if we assume Vegeta somehow retained his "ORE NO BURUMA!!!11ONE1" boost and could use it separately from his standard SSJ2 form at will and that the same applies to Trunks' upgraded SSJ2 equal to a SSJ3.

Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ3 Goku = Upgraded SSJ2 Trunks < Black < SSJ1 Black < Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta < Rejuvenated Black = SSJ Red Goku/Vegeta < Rejuvenated SSJ1 Black = SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta < SSJ Rosé Black < SSJ Red to Blue Vegeta ~ Completed SSJ Blue Goku = Merged Zamas < SSJ Blue Vegetto

Something to that effect, I suppose.

Perhaps Zamas, a "divine" being, inhabiting a mortal body changed the functionality of that body's power to be akin to the presumably retconned method by which SSJ Red powered base and SSJ Blue worked with regard to one another. Black's base became equal to a SSJ Red and his powering up into SSJ1 was equivalent to SSJ Blue before he reached a new level of power Goku's body didn't have yet with SSJ Rosé.

Yeah, zombie dude on top is right. Base goku > shin, but you make a fabulous point. Of ssj black to ssj rose wasn't much of an upgrade, only like let's say a 5x multiplayer. Then why can't that same power nerf percentage effect base black to ssj black? Lol. So ssj black isn't the standard 50x stronger then base black, but only marginally stronger. Because, if that were so then it can make sense how ssj2 vegeta can be so strong. Though I don't know, vegeta did trash talk trunks by saying ssj black is far to powerful for trunks (who just rivaled goku strongest non god form). Hm....
This is why I stick my headcanon as ssj black is stronger then full power ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku but not base black. Base black is weaker then trunks in full power ssj2.

[dragon boss z]

Well, a small illustration in chapter 20 depicts the killing and Zamasu-Goku is pretty clearly not even trying to be stealthy his stabbing, so it probably went down similar to the anime. He also claims that he couldn't transform beyond base when he first arrived in Trunks' timeline, yet he was still thrashing Trunks. So, it would appear that Black Goku doesn't follow normal multiplier logic, for whatever reason.

Ah, you're right; I'd forgotten about the illustrations in between the chapters. Indeed, Zamas kills Goku from the front, still leaving the exact nature of the assassination ambiguous. While I was offline, I'd remembered that Black used his ki blade to try to kill Gowas, so I changed my stance from a ki blast to a ki blade, which the illustration indeed supports. I'd expect that Zamas either appeared and immediately stabbed Goku before anything else happened or he briefly explained the situation in order to gloat before killing Goku. Knowing Zamas, it's most likely the latter, which leads me to believe that the nature of Black's power was different from the moment the body swap occurred, likely due to his "divine" spirit inhabiting a mortal body.

Since Trunks, who possessed the ability to use a SSJ2 upgrade equal to SSJ3, still couldn't defeat Black, I'd expect that either Black was immediately stronger than a SSJ3 or he waited until he was stronger than a SSJ3 to attack Trunks for the first time. Alternatively, he may have had to resort to SSJ1 to defeat Trunks initially before powering up to the extent that his base exceeded SSJ3. With regard to multipliers, I'd expect that, by the time Black fought evenly with Vegeta, his base was equal to SSJ Red and his SSJ1 was equal to SS Blue's normal power.

Re: The Power Scale

I think the whole thing makes sense if we assume Vegeta somehow retained his "ORE NO BURUMA!!!11ONE1" boost and could use it separately from his standard SSJ2 form at will and that the same applies to Trunks' upgraded SSJ2 equal to a SSJ3.

Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks < SSJ3 Goku = Upgraded SSJ2 Trunks < Black < SSJ1 Black < Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta < Rejuvenated Black = SSJ Red Goku/Vegeta < Rejuvenated SSJ1 Black = SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta < SSJ Rosé Black < SSJ Red to Blue Vegeta ~ Completed SSJ Blue Goku = Merged Zamas < SSJ Blue Vegetto

Something to that effect, I suppose.

Perhaps Zamas, a "divine" being, inhabiting a mortal body changed the functionality of that body's power to be akin to the presumably retconned method by which SSJ Red powered base and SSJ Blue worked with regard to one another. Black's base became equal to a SSJ Red and his powering up into SSJ1 was equivalent to SSJ Blue before he reached a new level of power Goku's body didn't have yet with SSJ Rosé.

Yeah, zombie dude on top is right. Base goku > shin, but you make a fabulous point. Of ssj black to ssj rose wasn't much of an upgrade, only like let's say a 5x multiplayer. Then why can't that same power nerf percentage effect base black to ssj black? Lol. So ssj black isn't the standard 50x stronger then base black, but only marginally stronger. Because, if that were so then it can make sense how ssj2 vegeta can be so strong. Though I don't know, vegeta did trash talk trunks by saying ssj black is far to powerful for trunks (who just rivaled goku strongest non god form). Hm....
This is why I stick my headcanon as ssj black is stronger then full power ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku but not base black. Base black is weaker then trunks in full power ssj2.

Ya, I agree with you on both accounts. Ssj and SSR for black both are small multipliers imo, and base Black was probably only stronger than regular ssj2 Trunks.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, Broly's back.

That's certainly something. Possibly greater than a God of Destruction, eh? Neat.

[Bullza]

Base Goku is stronger than Shin.

Maybe but then also maybe not. Maybe Goku withstanding Rumsshi's attack whereas Shin didnt had something to do with Goku's inner strength. Could be why he wasn't affected too much worse than any of the Gods of Destruction.

The Frost fights in the Universe 6 Saga would lead you to believe that Base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo. Piccolo was also supposed to be weaker than Shin.

[dragon boss z]

Base Goku is stronger than Shin.

Maybe but then also maybe not. Maybe Goku withstanding Rumsshi's attack whereas Shin didnt had something to do with Goku's inner strength. Could be why he wasn't affected too much worse than any of the Gods of Destruction.

The Frost fights in the Universe 6 Saga would lead you to believe that Base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo. Piccolo was also supposed to be weaker than Shin.

I don't think there was anything indicating U6 saga Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo. Though I would agree they didn't seem much stronger, if any. Piccolo was also probably a bit stronger than before and ToP Goku is stronger than U6 Goku, so it's possible base Goku could be above Shin. Though I agree his inner strength could have been the reason as well, as it was stated even the GoD had trouble with the technique, and even if base Goku is above Shin, he shouldn't even be close to GoD level without SSG or Blue.

[Black Hawk]

Something like that. Assuming Zamasu's soul caused power fluctuations in Goku's base form from the beginning also nicely solves the issue of Black's base power throwing the scale off (since his SS and SSB/R aren't necessarily the same boost as anyone else's relative to his base).

Yeah, I think that, unless and until we get an official explanation, Zamas' spirit in Goku's body causing his power to function differently is the best explanation to go with, as it has the fewest holes and solves the most problems out of all the explanations I can think of at least. I hope Toyotaro or Toriyama eventually addresses the issue, but, if that never happens, I'm satisfied with the one we've come to accept.

Yeah, zombie dude on top is right. Base goku > shin, but you make a fabulous point. Of ssj black to ssj rose wasn't much of an upgrade, only like let's say a 5x multiplayer. Then why can't that same power nerf percentage effect base black to ssj black? Lol. So ssj black isn't the standard 50x stronger then base black, but only marginally stronger. Because, if that were so then it can make sense how ssj2 vegeta can be so strong. Though I don't know, vegeta did trash talk trunks by saying ssj black is far to powerful for trunks (who just rivaled goku strongest non god form). Hm....
This is why I stick my headcanon as ssj black is stronger then full power ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku but not base black. Base black is weaker then trunks in full power ssj2.

While I don't think Goku's normal state is stronger than Shin, I agree with most of your other points. I expect Black's boost from SSJ1 to SSJ Rosé is, at the very least, less than that of the boost from SSJ Blue to Completed SSJ Blue; likewise, Black's boost from base to SSJ1 definitely has to be significantly less than 50x in order for SSJ1 Black to fit between SSJ3 Goku/Upgraded SSJ2 Trunks and Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta. I also think Vegeta's statement about SSJ1 Black being too much for Trunks really demonstrates how much stronger Vegeta's "ORE NO BURUMA!!" boost made him; to beat around an opponent even SSJ3 can't handle is quite the impressive feat.

I can definitely see and understand where your headcanon comes from, and I like it; the only reason I personally don't subscribe to it is because Trunks was shown to have already had his Upgraded SSJ2 form by the time we see Trunks fight Black and he later stated that it had been a while since Black had transformed into a Super Saiyajin. Taking both matters into consideration, it seems to me that Black became strong enough in his normal state to deal with Upgraded SSJ2 Trunks without needing to transform. That's just me, though.

[Bullza]

I don't think there was anything indicating U6 saga Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo.

There wasn't anything directly but Piccolo put up a pretty good fight against Frost. He was clearly weaker as the Tournament of Power proved as well but they still fought fairly evenly.

Base Vegeta still needed to transform to fight him though and Frost was even more tired at that point.

Theres very little means of comparison for the Base Saiyans really though it's​ probably safe to say Base Gohan is weaker than Frost too.

[dragon boss z]

There wasn't anything directly but Piccolo put up a pretty good fight against Frost. He was clearly weaker as the Tournament of Power proved as well but they still fought fairly evenly.
Base Vegeta still needed to transform to fight him though and Frost was even more tired at that point.
Theres very little means of comparison for the Base Saiyans really though it's​ probably safe to say Base Gohan is weaker than Frost too.

Vegeta went ssj to kick Frost's butt, and he said he held back so Frost wouldn't die. I agree base Gohan seems weaker than Frost. However base Gohan seemed at least on par with Piccolo when fighting U9 and base Goku is most likely above base Gohan. My biggest question would be if in the manga continuity base Goku was still on par or even above final form Frieza, as that would mean Piccolo<final form Frieza(possibly suppressed)<=base Goku. As nothing has contradicted that happening I assume that is still the case.

[ZombieVito]

Maybe but then also maybe not. Maybe Goku withstanding Rumsshi's attack whereas Shin didnt had something to do with Goku's inner strength. Could be why he wasn't affected too much worse than any of the Gods of Destruction.

The Frost fights in the Universe 6 Saga would lead you to believe that Base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo. Piccolo was also supposed to be weaker than Shin.

I hate the manga never bothered to show Piccolo training Gohan. It would have been the perfect opportunity to show Piccolo's power increased since he never stops training.

The anime keeps winning in that regard.

[RandomGuy96]

Maybe but then also maybe not. Maybe Goku withstanding Rumsshi's attack whereas Shin didnt had something to do with Goku's inner strength. Could be why he wasn't affected too much worse than any of the Gods of Destruction.

The Frost fights in the Universe 6 Saga would lead you to believe that Base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo. Piccolo was also supposed to be weaker than Shin.

I hate the manga never bothered to show Piccolo training Gohan. It would have been the perfect opportunity to show Piccolo's power increased since he never stops training.

7 years of training between Cell and Buu seemed to have brought negligible results. If anything the gap between him and the saiyans got bigger (at the Cell Games his fight with the Cell Juniors implied he wasn't too far off from SS Vegeta, yet by the Buu arc he's far weaker than Shin who is himself weaker than the Super Saiyans). I don't think Piccolo's training is doing much at this point.

Anyway, upon re-reading the manga again more closely, I definitely think that my earlier theory about Vegeta's SSG/SSB switching technique being equal in power yet inferior in speed to Goku's CSSB is a valid, even likely, interpretation. They do
after all outright state that both techniques are just the user exerting the full power of SSB without it dropping (which apparently it does pretty much immediately after the first few seconds, given Beerus's reference to quickly fading "explosive power" in his and Vegeta's sparring match). The brief curb-stomp Fused Zamasu has against SSB Goku and Vegeta also places heavy emphasis on his speed (he knocks Goku and Vegeta to the ground before they even know he moved, and he says they're "not even moving" compared to him). Which would be the reason that CSSB was able to fight on par with Fused Zamasu while Vegeta himself admitted he wouldn't be able to do so: because his technique only utilizes SSB's power for attacks, rather than all movements, Fused Zamasu would still be untouchable to him and totally dominate Vegeta in a fight.

[Black Hawk]

7 years of training between Cell and Buu seemed to have brought negligible results. If anything the gap between him and the saiyans got bigger (at the Cell Games his fight with the Cell Juniors implied he wasn't too far off from SS Vegeta, yet by the Buu arc he's far weaker than Shin who is himself weaker than the Super Saiyans). I don't think Piccolo's training is doing much at this point.

Anyway, upon re-reading the manga again more closely, I definitely think that my earlier theory about Vegeta's SSG/SSB switching technique being equal in power yet inferior in speed to Goku's CSSB is a valid, even likely, interpretation. They do
after all outright state that both techniques are just the user exerting the full power of SSB without it dropping (which apparently it does pretty much immediately after the first few seconds, given Beerus's reference to quickly fading "explosive power" in his and Vegeta's sparring match). The brief curb-stomp Fused Zamasu has against SSB Goku and Vegeta also places heavy emphasis on his speed (he knocks Goku and Vegeta to the ground before they even know he moved, and he says they're "not even moving" compared to him). Which would be the reason that CSSB was able to fight on par with Fused Zamasu while Vegeta himself admitted he wouldn't be able to do so: because his technique only utilizes SSB's power for attacks, rather than all movements, Fused Zamasu would still be untouchable to him and totally dominate Vegeta in a fight.

I agree with much of this but with one small, almost negligible difference: I think Vegeta's SSJ Red to Blue swapping technique does technically drain his 100% SSJ Blue power but that it does so at such a slow rate that it might as well not be a factor. Something to the effect that, each time he uses it, it might drop by just 1%, nothing that would affect a battle as short as that one.