Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

Vegeta didn't get significantly stronger until near the end of episode 122.

Hell the first time I felt like Goku had gotten significantly stronger in his blue form from the end of FT arc was in episode 123 when he pushed jiren to use more power.

[Nevaeh]

With the rumours of Gogeta appearing in the movie, he likely shouldn't be as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue Vegito right?

So how strong should an Ultra Instinct Gogeta be?

He'll be way stronger. Blue Gogeta will be GoD level since he'll be fighting a GoD level Broly. Vegetto at least in the anime was never hyped up to be on that level

[ZombieVito]

With the rumours of Gogeta appearing in the movie, he likely shouldn't be as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue Vegito right?

So how strong should an Ultra Instinct Gogeta be?

Blue Vegetto is on Beerus level so Blue Gogeta being in that level means that Goku and Vegeta have grown much stronger in between the ToP arc and the movie.

I have no idea where a UI Gogeta would stand.

[PFM18]

With the rumours of Gogeta appearing in the movie, he likely shouldn't be as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue Vegito right?

So how strong should an Ultra Instinct Gogeta be?

Blue Vegetto is on Beerus level so Blue Gogeta being in that level means that Goku and Vegeta have grown much stronger in between the ToP arc and the movie.

I have no idea where a UI Gogeta would stand.

Well a common stance is that Goku and Vegeta had grown much stronger during the tournament, and a huge increase after the ToP wouldn't be necessary for this to work.

[HeroR]

With the rumours of Gogeta appearing in the movie, he likely shouldn't be as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue Vegito right?

So how strong should an Ultra Instinct Gogeta be?

Blue Vegetto is on Beerus level so Blue Gogeta being in that level means that Goku and Vegeta have grown much stronger in between the ToP arc and the movie.

I have no idea where a UI Gogeta would stand.

We have no clue where Vegito Blue stands outside the manga, and even Toyo said Shin could have been wrong.

[ZombieVito]

With the rumours of Gogeta appearing in the movie, he likely shouldn't be as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue Vegito right?

So how strong should an Ultra Instinct Gogeta be?

Blue Vegetto is on Beerus level so Blue Gogeta being in that level means that Goku and Vegeta have grown much stronger in between the ToP arc and the movie.

I have no idea where a UI Gogeta would stand.

Well a common stance is that Goku and Vegeta had grown much stronger during the tournament, and a huge increase after the ToP wouldn't be necessary for this to work.

That's never said in the ToP.

[PFM18]

Blue Vegetto is on Beerus level so Blue Gogeta being in that level means that Goku and Vegeta have grown much stronger in between the ToP arc and the movie.

I have no idea where a UI Gogeta would stand.

Well a common stance is that Goku and Vegeta had grown much stronger during the tournament, and a huge increase after the ToP wouldn't be necessary for this to work.

That's never said in the ToP.

I never said it was. It doesn't need to be

I didn't think before that there was any reason to believe that Goku/Vegeta had gained power-ups during the tournament, but when I watch some episodes over it is pretty clear that's the case.

[PFM18]

Vegeta didn't get significantly stronger until near the end of episode 122.

I didn't realize it in the first time but over the course of ep 122 even Vegeta had gained a lot of power between his little pride speech and what not.

[Bullza]

I don't know where I stand on that, a few people here seem to think that Goku really powered up in the same form I suppose throughout the Tournament.

I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. I can sorta see it maybe because there was that moment when Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue Infront of Jiren the second time and Jiren has a shocked expression...dunno why he would have such an expression considered he'd already seen it and fought the Kaio-ken and everything.

Unless he had actually grown stronger but I don't know.

[PFM18]

I don't know where I stand on that, a few people here seem to think that Goku really powered up in the same form I suppose throughout the Tournament.

I'm not entirely sure where this comes from. I can sorta see it maybe because there was that moment when Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue Infront of Jiren the second time and Jiren has a shocked expression...dunno why he would have such an expression considered he'd already seen it and fought the Kaio-ken and everything.

Unless he had actually grown stronger but I don't know.

See I've always been kind of mixed on it but now I lean more towards the increases during the tournament. It appears to be the case with Goku, but in Vegeta's case it is more clear. At first, Vegeta is in SSB and is punching Jiren and Jiren just tanks it and doesn't even budge, later Vegeta punches Jiren in the stomach making him flinch and then Jiren is forced to block his punches and starts sweating a bit, and then there's how Vegeta's Final Flash knocked over Jiren in 122 where the Genki Dama didn't, albeit this is a Jiren that was more suppressed(by an unknown amount.)

In Goku's case, in their rematch Goku powers up into SSB and Jiren looks surprised(indicating a possible increase) and he seemed to perform better in normal SSB than the last bout. So it appears Goku also attained an increase.

This has provoked people to come to conclusions like ep 123 SSB Goku/Vegeta>2nd UI Omen which I don't really agree with but I think at this point it is hard to logically deny there was an increase to some extent over the course of the tournament.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've never really bought into the idea that Goku got "significantly" stronger during the Tournament of Power.

Sure, he got a bit stronger, but never to any amazing degree; the difference between the Future Trunks Arc and the Universal Survival Arc never seemed to be all that much, maybe enough to equal the power that Merged Zamasu initially had and that's about it.

Like, Vegeta and Goku's power-ups seemed more focused on managing to utilize their full-power without much issue and unlocking new levels as separate power-ups than anything noteworthy in their ordinary forms; SSB is still equal to Golden Freeza, SSB is still 20x weaker than KaiokenX20 or SSBE, etc.

[PFM18]

I've never really bought into the idea that Goku got "significantly" stronger during the Tournament of Power.

Sure, he got a bit stronger, but never to any amazing degree; the difference between the Future Trunks Arc and the Universal Survival Arc never seemed to be all that much, maybe enough to equal the power that Merged Zamasu initially had and that's about it.

Like, Vegeta and Goku's power-ups seemed more focused on managing to utilize their full-power without much issue and unlocking new levels as separate power-ups than anything noteworthy in their ordinary forms; SSB is still equal to Golden Freeza, SSB is still 20x weaker than KaiokenX20 or SSBE, etc.

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't blame you for thinking that way. When I rewatched 122/123 though, to me I thought that Goku/Vegeta had become stronger. Between Vegeta earlier in the episode doing 0 damage and Jiren tanking all his attacks, to later doing some damage with a punch to the gut and a kick to the gut, there would have to be an increase there. Then there's Jiren being surprised when Goku powered up to SSB this time. The overall awe of Goku powering up into SSB signified a significant increase, even if it is one of ambiguous size.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've never really bought into the idea that Goku got "significantly" stronger during the Tournament of Power.

Sure, he got a bit stronger, but never to any amazing degree; the difference between the Future Trunks Arc and the Universal Survival Arc never seemed to be all that much, maybe enough to equal the power that Merged Zamasu initially had and that's about it.

Like, Vegeta and Goku's power-ups seemed more focused on managing to utilize their full-power without much issue and unlocking new levels as separate power-ups than anything noteworthy in their ordinary forms; SSB is still equal to Golden Freeza, SSB is still 20x weaker than KaiokenX20 or SSBE, etc.

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't blame you for thinking that way. When I rewatched 122/123 though, to me I thought that Goku/Vegeta had become stronger. Between Vegeta earlier in the episode doing 0 damage and Jiren tanking all his attacks, to later doing some damage with a punch to the gut and a kick to the gut, there would have to be an increase there. Then there's Jiren being surprised when Goku powered up to SSB this time. The overall awe of Goku powering up into SSB signified a significant increase, even if it is one of ambiguous size.

Well, with Vegeta, there wasn't actually an increase. Vegeta just learned how to see through Jiren's movements briefly, allowing him to strike with solid blows that Jiren couldn't defend against easily and thus had to actually block and dodge; Shin even states that Vegeta's learned how to break through Jiren's massive Ki after witnessing him dodging Jiren's punches and landing that gut-punch.

That's how I see a lot of it, actually. Goku and Vegeta haven't been constantly getting stronger throughout, more just adapting and learning how to hit higher above their ordinary paygrade; a solid hit when your opponent can't properly brace or defend against it is extremely effective.

[ZombieVito]

Well, with Vegeta, there wasn't actually an increase. Vegeta just learned how to see through Jiren's movements briefly, allowing him to strike with solid blows that Jiren couldn't defend against easily and thus had to actually block and dodge; Shin even states that Vegeta's learned how to break through Jiren's massive Ki after witnessing him dodging Jiren's punches and landing that gut-punch.

That's how I see a lot of it, actually. Goku and Vegeta haven't been constantly getting stronger throughout, more just adapting and learning how to hit higher above their ordinary paygrade; a solid hit when your opponent can't properly brace or defend against it is extremely effective.

Yeah this. Vegeta didn't get stronger in E122. He just learned to read Jiren's moves.

When a character gets an actual power up in the ToP it gets commented on.

Both Caulifla and Kale did while Goku and Vegeta (SSBE aside) never did.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Vegeta's ki spiked at the end of 122

Goku : "Holy crap Vegeta, I can't believe your ki is rising so much"

Even Belmod and Khai freaked out about it


You don't need explicit confirmation to say characters got stronger as the tournament went on. Goku in regular ssb did better against a powered up jiren than his kkx20 self did vs a less powered up jiren in the special. That happened.

To say they didn't get stronger during the tournament is flat out wrong, you can debate the amount of increase but they definitely got stronger. Otherwise explain jiren having to go FP vs 3rd UIO Goku while barely trying against the 1st Omen? Goku had to have gotten massively stronger before and during the fight

[ZombieVito]

Well of course Vegeta's ki will rise. He was charging up an attack...

Goku is not going to get over 20 times stronger out of the blue without someone commenting about it. Not a chance.

[PFM18]

Goku : "Holy crap Vegeta, I can't believe your ki is rising so much"

Even Belmod and Khai freaked out about it

I mean somebody could argue that that was just the Final Flash in which there was an increase.

Goku in regular ssb did better against a powered up jiren than his kkx20 self did vs a less powered up jiren in the special. That happened.

The Jiren Goku fought in 122 was weaker than in the special as stated by Vegeta. Jiren powered up further in 123 to be the strongest they had seen him in the ToP up to that point, but Goku only really contended with him in SSB for like 5-10 seconds and I don't think there can really be that much drawn from it.

I do agree there was increase, but I don't think it is indisputable. "Flat out wrong" is a bit of hyberbole.

Well, with Vegeta, there wasn't actually an increase. Vegeta just learned how to see through Jiren's movements briefly, allowing him to strike with solid blows that Jiren couldn't defend against easily and thus had to actually block and dodge; Shin even states that Vegeta's learned how to break through Jiren's massive Ki after witnessing him dodging Jiren's punches and landing that gut-punch.

That's how I see a lot of it, actually. Goku and Vegeta haven't been constantly getting stronger throughout, more just adapting and learning how to hit higher above their ordinary paygrade; a solid hit when your opponent can't properly brace or defend against it is extremely effective.

Yeah this. Vegeta didn't get stronger in E122. He just learned to read Jiren's moves.

When a character gets an actual power up in the ToP it gets commented on.

Both Caulifla and Kale did while Goku and Vegeta (SSBE aside) never did.

I mean at the end of the day Vegeta punched Jiren to Jiren not flinching in any capacity similar to when Krillin was punching Cell. Then, later, the first hit, albeit being in part because of a prediction, was still able to damage Jiren where it was completely tanked before. Then, without it having anything to do with prediction, Vegeta gets a big kick to the stomach that Jiren grimaced in response to. Then, Goku and Vegeta seem to perform on par with 110 UI Goku, against a significantly stronger iteration of Jiren. I agree it isn't a 20 fold increase, but I think it appears there is a fairly large increase in there.

Then there's Jiren being shockeed when Goku powers up into SSB in 122 and Jiren feeling the need to power up against two normall SSBs in the first place.

Well of course Vegeta's ki will rise. He was charging up an attack...

Goku is not going to get over 20 times stronger out of the blue without someone commenting about it. Not a chance.

In Goku's case it isn't really out of the blue as much as it is over the course of the time in between the rematch. (Again, not a 20 fold increase either. An increase, yes, but not 20 fold.)

[Miracles]

Remember, One powering up their final attack only increases their battle power for that attack. They do not grow in overall strength permanently.

[Bergamo]

I've been rereading the Android Saga and the power scaling is downright bad. The androids start out as equal to Vegeta, and then they are said to be much stronger, and then they are said to be equal to cell, and then they are said to be weaker Cell, and finally they are both equal to and weaker than piccolo.

The power scaling would look a little something like this.

Trunks <<18 = Vegeta< 18 =< Cell < Piccolo = 17

This obviously makes no sense.

It really makes you realize how late Z and DBS aren't that different in terms of quality.

[Bullza]

I've been rereading the Android Saga and the power scaling is downright bad. The androids start out as equal to Vegeta, and then they are said to be much stronger, and then they are said to be equal to cell, and then they are said to be weaker Cell, and finally they are both equal to and weaker than piccolo.

From what I recall Android 18 was always stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta once she got serious. Her power is meant to be suppressed in comparison to Android 17.

Piccolo was meant to be as strong as Android 17 which was shown when they fought and was also said by Android 16 when he fought Cell.

Cell was weaker than Android 17 and Piccolo but he was stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta.