Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Glen300]

How can Base Gogeta be weaker than his fusees though? Him being weaker would be illogical and does not make any sense. Gogeta is literally Goku and Vegeta combined, so could not possibly be weaker than either one on their own. Am I missing something here?

Depends on how you are measuring Gogeta's strength.

if Base Gogeta = (Base Goku + Base Vegeta) than the argument from some is SSB Goku or Vegeta > (Base Goku + Base Vegeta).

However, its been established that Gogeta isn't simply Goku + Vegeta, but Goku + Vegeta and an unknown qualifier.

[shadd21]

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

[Miracles]

The narrative is the evidence that Beerus is the man.

[shadd21]

The narrative is the evidence that Beerus is the man.

is it? AFAIH from others, Beerus was never implied to be above them i haven't seen the new movie or the final few eps of Super so idk.

[RandomGuy96]

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

Literally none.

[ssj3kakarot]

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

Yes actually. The movie strongly suggest that Beerus is still top dog, or at least stronger than Broly.

Personally I think Beerus is > Broly and Jiren, and will stay so until shown or directly stated otherwise.

[Miracles]

The narrative is the evidence that Beerus is the man.

is it? AFAIH from others, Beerus was never implied to be above them i haven't seen the new movie or the final few eps of Super so idk.

Beerus is the goal for Goku. That alone tells you Beerus is the strongest. To add, the latest opponent in Broly was just compared to him. Anyone saying Beerus is not the man is just using headcannon to downplay Beerus and promote their favorite characters to his relevancy.

[Hulk10]

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

Yes actually. The movie strongly suggest that Beerus is still top dog, or at least stronger than Broly.

Personally I think Beerus is > Broly and Jiren, and will stay so until shown or directly stated otherwise.

I dunno about that. The movie didn't suggest that to me.

[shadd21]

The narrative is the evidence that Beerus is the man.

is it? AFAIH from others, Beerus was never implied to be above them i haven't seen the new movie or the final few eps of Super so idk.

Beerus is the goal for Goku. That alone tells you Beerus is the strongest. To add, the latest opponent in Broly was just compared to him. Anyone saying Beerus is not the man is just using headcannon to downplay Beerus and promote their favorite characters to his relevancy.

Aren't you doing the same? Seeing how Goku statement holds says nothing to imply Beerus is the strongest of the two.

[Jack Bz]

In my mind, Jiren, Beerus and Broly are all roughly comparable in strength, with no clear winner. I get the feeling that Beerus is the best martial artist though, especially considering he has elements of UI in the manga.

That's sorta head canon though. They definitely haven't made it clear in any way, and I don't get the feeling that Toriyama and co have even decided on this.

[PFM18]

How can Base Gogeta be weaker than his fusees though? Him being weaker would be illogical and does not make any sense. Gogeta is literally Goku and Vegeta combined, so could not possibly be weaker than either one on their own. Am I missing something here?

I think you are missing something here. Base Gogeta could be inferior to SSB Goku/Vegeta, hypothetically, without defeating the purpose of the fusion and still having Gogeta exponentially more powerful than Goku and Vegeta individually. Gogeta can be superior to them without being stronger than his fusees in their best form in his normal form. Like, just because Base Gogeta<SSB Goku/Vegeta, doesnt mean he isnt immensely stronger than them. No matter which way you look at it, SSJ Gogeta is immensely stronger than his fusees in an inferior form to their SSB.

Maybe you're thinking that the point of contention was whether Base Gogeta>Base Goku/Vegeta?

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

Yes actually. The movie strongly suggest that Beerus is still top dog, or at least stronger than Broly.

Personally I think Beerus is > Broly and Jiren, and will stay so until shown or directly stated otherwise.

What are you talking about? Goku literally states Broly's superiority over Beerus.

[Miracles]

is it? AFAIH from others, Beerus was never implied to be above them i haven't seen the new movie or the final few eps of Super so idk.

Beerus is the goal for Goku. That alone tells you Beerus is the strongest. To add, the latest opponent in Broly was just compared to him. Anyone saying Beerus is not the man is just using headcannon to downplay Beerus and promote their favorite characters to his relevancy.

Aren't you doing the same? Seeing how Goku statement holds says nothing to imply Beerus is the strongest of the two.

The fact that a stronger Goku currently compares Broly to Beerus with doubts means that Beerus was and still is the guy all along. The fandom drummed up their own news articles about Beerus being surpassed in the TOP. Yet here is the irrelevant guy, supposedly yesterdays news, in the limelight today. Now we are in a new arc and Beerus throne is still untouched. No, I'm not pumping anybody up, I don't have a favorite character but I always thought truth [following the story and not adding or taking away from it] always mattered. Especially in a huge DB fandom that has agendas, bias, and you tube videos that can outright cause confusion with their platforms. Amongst the disarray, I always think just sticking with the script can blow out all the smoke. Like this statement for example...

What are you talking about? Goku literally states Broly's superiority over Beerus.

The same thing was claimed with Jiren and now that a current enemy pops up, the same misconception is being touted. Goku made a statement of uncertainty with the Broly and Beerus comparison. Again, nowhere was it outright; clearly stated that Beerus was surpassed, by anyone. Haven't we learned from the last mistakes?

Happy New Year everyone!

[shadd21]

Beerus is the goal for Goku. That alone tells you Beerus is the strongest. To add, the latest opponent in Broly was just compared to him. Anyone saying Beerus is not the man is just using headcannon to downplay Beerus and promote their favorite characters to his relevancy.

Aren't you doing the same? Seeing how Goku statement holds says nothing to imply Beerus is the strongest of the two.

The fact that a stronger Goku currently compares Broly to Beerus with doubts means that Beerus was and still is the guy all along. The fandom drummed up their own news articles about Beerus being surpassed in the TOP. Yet here is the irrelevant guy, supposedly yesterdays news, in the limelight today. Now we are in a new arc and Beerus throne is still untouched. No, I'm not pumping anybody up, I don't have a favorite character but I always thought truth [following the story and not adding or taking away from it] always mattered. Especially in a huge DB fandom that has agendas, bias, and you tube videos that can outright cause confusion with their platforms. Amongst the disarray, I always think just sticking with the script can blow out all the smoke. Like this statement for example...

But there isn't anything proving that Beerus' "throne" hasn't been touched, not saying that weaker than Jir/Brly, but nothing has indicated the opposite.

[Miracles]

Aren't you doing the same? Seeing how Goku statement holds says nothing to imply Beerus is the strongest of the two.

The fact that a stronger Goku currently compares Broly to Beerus with doubts means that Beerus was and still is the guy all along. The fandom drummed up their own news articles about Beerus being surpassed in the TOP. Yet here is the irrelevant guy, supposedly yesterdays news, in the limelight today. Now we are in a new arc and Beerus throne is still untouched. No, I'm not pumping anybody up, I don't have a favorite character but I always thought truth [following the story and not adding or taking away from it] always mattered. Especially in a huge DB fandom that has agendas, bias, and you tube videos that can outright cause confusion with their platforms. Amongst the disarray, I always think just sticking with the script can blow out all the smoke. Like this statement for example...

But there isn't anything proving that Beerus' "throne" hasn't been touched, not saying that weaker than Jir/Brly, but nothing has indicated the opposite.

Yes it has. It was established that Beerus is Goku's benchmark. Every opponent Goku has faced was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. Nothing usurps Beerus awaiting Goku at the top of the mountain.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The fact that a stronger Goku currently compares Broly to Beerus with doubts means that Beerus was and still is the guy all along. The fandom drummed up their own news articles about Beerus being surpassed in the TOP. Yet here is the irrelevant guy, supposedly yesterdays news, in the limelight today. Now we are in a new arc and Beerus throne is still untouched. No, I'm not pumping anybody up, I don't have a favorite character but I always thought truth [following the story and not adding or taking away from it] always mattered. Especially in a huge DB fandom that has agendas, bias, and you tube videos that can outright cause confusion with their platforms. Amongst the disarray, I always think just sticking with the script can blow out all the smoke. Like this statement for example...

But there isn't anything proving that Beerus' "throne" hasn't been touched, not saying that weaker than Jir/Brly, but nothing has indicated the opposite.

Yes it has. It was established that Beerus is Goku's benchmark. Every opponent Goku has faced was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. Nothing usurps Beerus awaiting Goku at the top of the mountain.

Well, according to Whis, no.

Spoiler:

[shadd21]

The fact that a stronger Goku currently compares Broly to Beerus with doubts means that Beerus was and still is the guy all along. The fandom drummed up their own news articles about Beerus being surpassed in the TOP. Yet here is the irrelevant guy, supposedly yesterdays news, in the limelight today. Now we are in a new arc and Beerus throne is still untouched. No, I'm not pumping anybody up, I don't have a favorite character but I always thought truth [following the story and not adding or taking away from it] always mattered. Especially in a huge DB fandom that has agendas, bias, and you tube videos that can outright cause confusion with their platforms. Amongst the disarray, I always think just sticking with the script can blow out all the smoke. Like this statement for example...

But there isn't anything proving that Beerus' "throne" hasn't been touched, not saying that weaker than Jir/Brly, but nothing has indicated the opposite.

Yes it has. It was established that Beerus is Goku's benchmark. Every opponent Goku has faced was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. Nothing usurps Beerus awaiting Goku at the top of the mountain.

Beerus hasn't been the sole Benchmark since the U6 tournament, Goku literally stated in Broly that his goal is the fighters from other universes, and than the ToP has "Open his eyes" to that, add that to the comparisons between Jiren/Broly and Beerus that were intentionally made ambiguous by the writers/Toriyama, it appears that the Goku's goal has shifted from Beerus to GoD level fighters in general, which even then doesn't men that Beerus is the strongest.

[GodVegetto91]

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

It’s actually the other way around. Is there any hard evidence that Jiren and Broly are stronger than Universe 7’s God of Destruction, Lord Beerus??!

So far, i don’t see any. We only get a couple of very vague statements. Far too vague to determine any real answer. For now, it seems Beerus is still on top. He needs to be, until the inevitable rematch between Beerus and a fully mastered UI Goku. That’s (presumably) why his strength continuously gets retconned in order to stay ahead of Goku. The manga also hinted at their legendary rematch. Saying Goku would eventually become the mighty rival Beerus had dreamed of. Everything seems to be leading up to that historic moment. Whenever that happens. It might take a couple of Arcs though,

[Miracles]

But there isn't anything proving that Beerus' "throne" hasn't been touched, not saying that weaker than Jir/Brly, but nothing has indicated the opposite.

Yes it has. It was established that Beerus is Goku's benchmark. Every opponent Goku has faced was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. Nothing usurps Beerus awaiting Goku at the top of the mountain.

Well, according to Whis, no.

Spoiler:

That has nothing to do with Beerus. That is outright talking Jiren being above Belmond.

But there isn't anything proving that Beerus' "throne" hasn't been touched, not saying that weaker than Jir/Brly, but nothing has indicated the opposite.

Yes it has. It was established that Beerus is Goku's benchmark. Every opponent Goku has faced was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. Nothing usurps Beerus awaiting Goku at the top of the mountain.

Beerus hasn't been the sole Benchmark since the U6 tournament, Goku literally stated in Broly that his goal is the fighters from other universes, and than the ToP has "Open his eyes" to that, add that to the comparisons between Jiren/Broly and Beerus that were intentionally made ambiguous by the writers/Toriyama, it appears that the Goku's goal has shifted from Beerus to GoD level fighters in general, which even then doesn't men that Beerus is the strongest.

Saying Beerus hasn't been the goal since U6 is a non truther because Goku stated in that very arc that he is going to fight Beerus again "Someday." That means currently making him still the man. To add to that, Beerus status, Goku wouldn't have compared the current opponent in Broly to Beerus with doubts if he wasn't the goal since U6. We know opponents grow in strength every arc. Yet Beerus is still relevant and here we are in the Moro arc, Beerus throne is unshaken. Beerus is still the strongest because Goku has yet to fulfill the prophecy of the oracle fish and give Beerus a great battle. You too need to reread the story.

[AvatarReiko]

How can Base Gogeta be weaker than his fusees though? Him being weaker would be illogical and does not make any sense. Gogeta is literally Goku and Vegeta combined, so could not possibly be weaker than either one on their own. Am I missing something here?

I think you are missing something here. Base Gogeta could be inferior to SSB Goku/Vegeta, hypothetically, without defeating the purpose of the fusion and still having Gogeta exponentially more powerful than Goku and Vegeta individually. Gogeta can be superior to them without being stronger than his fusees in their best form in his normal form. Like, just because Base Gogeta<SSB Goku/Vegeta, doesnt mean he isnt immensely stronger than them. No matter which way you look at it, SSJ Gogeta is immensely stronger than his fusees in an inferior form to their SSB.

Maybe you're thinking that the point of contention was whether Base Gogeta>Base Goku/Vegeta?

is there any evidence pointing towards Beerus being stronger than Jiren/Broly?

Yes actually. The movie strongly suggest that Beerus is still top dog, or at least stronger than Broly.

Personally I think Beerus is > Broly and Jiren, and will stay so until shown or directly stated otherwise.

What are you talking about? Goku literally states Broly's superiority over Beerus.

But why are their transformations being separated though? Gogeta should be > Goku and Vegeta period

[Hugo Boss]

When Goku says “Broly is probably stronger than Beerus” there is a sense of “likeliness” in Goku’s sentence. Not a “definetely”, but at least there is a strong indication that Broly surpassed the God of Destruction level. I suspect Beerus might surprise though.