Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ruler9871]

It was explained that Vegeta perfected Goku's red and blue switch technique where he could exert the full power of blue in bursts and not waste any power against Rose. Your dislike for the manga isn't going to change the facts of it's story coherency on this.

Your still ignoring the plot. Trunks beat Future Zamas twice by stabbing and shooting him with a blast. Only his regeneration saved him. Then later he couldn't overpower a fatigue SSj2 Trunks. Trading blows with blue Goku before/after does not change that fact at all. It's just TOEI'S bad writing. However, TOEI'S narration constantly referred to Zamas immortality/invincibility as being the threat, not his power. IF ZAMAS WAS BLUE LEVEL HE WOULDN'T NEED TO REGENERATE FROM BASIC ATTACKS FROM BOTH BLUE GOKU OR SSJ2 TRUNKS.

1. You are still missing the point. The Red-Blue switching thing still can't explain where Vegeta got an over 5,000x power boost to surpass Black's Rose form, since he was previously weaker than his SSJ1 form.

2. A) Trunks lost to F.Zamasu in that episode. The fight wasn't over when Trunks stabbed him (which Zamasu took on purpose, at fact you keep ignoring).

B) "he couldn't overpower a fatigue SSj2 Trunks", he wasn't trying to. He simply chased him around.

C) "Trading blows with blue Goku before/after does not change that fact at all"

If F.Zamasu wasn't SSB level in the anime then he wouldn't have been able to trade blows with a serious SSB Goku at all. Its that simple.

D) "It's just TOEI'S bad writing", no that's just your bias assumptions, since you still haven't given any proof that F.Zamasu was mean't to be only SSJ2 in the anime (and anime =/= manga in power levels, so don't even bother with that BS "Toriyama's outline" argument).

"However, TOEI'S narration constantly referred to Zamas immortality/invincibility as being the threat, not his power"

This is clearly false, because Goku did mention F.Zamasu's power in the anime. You are just being in denial.

E) "IF ZAMAS WAS BLUE LEVEL HE WOULDN'T NEED TO REGENERATE FROM BASIC ATTACKS FROM BOTH BLUE GOKU OR SSJ2 TRUNKS."

This is a fallacy, because RoF Golden Freeza could also be killed from basic attacks by Black arc SSB Goku, so that doesn't prove a thing. And F.Zamasu took on Trunks sword on purpose, because as Trunks himself says in the anime, F.Zamasu often drops his guard and tanks hits on purpose so he can gloat about is immortality. So that debunks your downplay.

Do you know what a fallacy is?

An unsound argument.

[ruler9871]

SSJ Rose is the equivalent of the SSBLUE. How much stronger SSBLUE is compared to base ? X 100 000 ? X 1 Million ? And SSJ Rose Goku Black has several power up before the last fight with Vegeta. So with your statement, Vegeta need to become millions times stronger to beat him after the training...

For Trunks, he was able to block a ki blade from Black using his sword, trade some blow and ultimately kick his ass against the Wall. And for Black's Kamehameha, an attack able to beat to death Goku SSJB, should absolutely desintegrate Trunks... Unless you think the 5 minutes training with SSBLUEGETA give Trunks an 1billion power-up.....

1. SSJ Rose is only equal to SSB in the manga. In the anime (according to a guide from Toei) SSJ Rose is only equal to SSJ1 (on top of Black's strong base).

2. SSJ2 Trunks in the Black arc is not equal to the SSJ2s of Z. He's way above that, since his SSJ2 was able to match Goku's (who as well as Vegeta had surpassed BoG SSG in his base).

[ruler9871]

1. Goku initially did try to kill Freeza. He was also blood-lusted against King Piccolo, Raditz, Saiyan arc Vegeta, Perfect Cell & Kid Buu. And the Z movies have the same characterization as the main story, so its a valid argument.

2. F.Zamasu smiled and bragged when Trunks stabbed him, and he had SSB Goku on the run in their fight. That debunks your argument there.

Ever since the 23rd TB Goku has never tried to kill someone out of the bat like that. He only kills when it's absolutely necessary. If he was trying to kill Zamasu here it's out of character.

This is not the reaction someone makes when they wanted to get stabbed.



Then this happens after he regenerates. He can't be SSB tier if he can't even hit a SS2 tier guy.

1. False. Goku was aiming to Kill Vegeta when they 1st fought but changed his mind later since he couldn't beat Vegeta alone. He was also aiming to kill A19 & Gero, Perfect Cell, Super Buu (with fusion) & Kid Buu. He also aimed to kill Black after he told him how he killed Future Chichi. So no its not out-of-character. Goku does sometimes go for the kill from the start. He didn't effort mercy to any of those guys I listed.

2. F.Zamasu was hitting SSB Goku in that same episode & later ones (a fact you keep ignoring) and he was beating up Trunks in later episodes. You are just being in denial as usual.

anime =/= manga in power levels.

[ruler9871]

Stop with the fanfic numbers. The manga stated that Vegeta being able to switch to blue when attacking allows Blue's FULL POWER to be maximized in short bursts. That's why Vegeta could get the better of Rose Black. You can keep ignoring it if you want, won't change the facts.

You still don't get it smh. So you're saying that Vegeta merely using the red-blue switch trick would allow him to use over 5000x more power than he in their 1st fight? That's still retarded.

Zamas is invulnerable. He doesn't feel pain. He took a full kamehameha from Rose. His invincibility/regenration is the ONLY reason why he was able to physically block/trade with people stronger than him. You are just trying to put your headcanon over the story.

"Immortality" can't explain F.Zamasu being able to hurt an all-out, on-guard, SSB Goku/vegeta & Rage Trunks multiple times. Having Immortality has nothing to do with your offense, your argument fails.

Where did the story praise future Zamas power as the threat to Goku and Vegeta instead of his invincible body? TOEI's plot constantly claimed Zamas was invulnerable. The fact that TOEI had Zamas lose to Trunks SSJ2 when before he pushes Blue Goku is proof of bad writing. The action contradicting the narration at times is inconsistency.

In Goku's 1st fight with F.Zamasu he commented on his power after he casually parried (not tanked) a punch from SSB Goku. And for the last time, he didn't lose to Trunks at all in ep.57. Stop making BS up. And F.Zamasu fought SSb Goku 1st (not after fighting Trunks) and there is no line in the anime that's says he was mean't to be only SSJ2 level there (you still haven't given any proof from the show itself nor any guide from Toei).

Zamas drops his guard AFTER getting hit just to gloat, he doesn't get hit on purpose like your headcanon assumes. Also, RoF Freeza wouldn't be Black arc Blue Goku level. So your example for Zamas needing to be healed from basic attacks from blue is more headcanon.

That is the most illogical argument ever. Why would he drop his after hit when there's nothing hitting him then? That makes no sense. And in that scene, Trunks clearly states that F.Zamasu tanks attacks on purpose.

"RoF Freeza wouldn't be Black arc Blue Goku level" "So your example for Zamas needing to be healed from basic attacks from blue is more headcanon."

Thanks for proving my point. You finally admitted that "SSB-level" isn't the same exact power in every saga. So being weaker than Black arc SSB =/= not being SSB level.

[ruler9871]

1. Base Black was stated to have become much stronger at that point than he was when he fought SSJ2 Goku. Not an inconsistency.

It's still not consistent with Vegeta being able to catch SSJ Rose Black's punch in the same episode. If Base Black>SSB Vegeta were true, then he should have been instantly disintegrated by SSJ Rose, but he even put up a fight.

I never said Base Black > SSB Vegeta (Base Black likely became just strong enough to tank early SSB-level attacks without much damage.) And SSJ Rose Black did causally stomp SSB Vegeta in their 1st fight.

[ruler9871]

1. Forcing Goku into a Super Saiyan Blue only shows that he's stronger than the below forms. He was shown clearly to be inferior to Goku during the Black Hole incident. Android 17 never matched Toppo, losing ground is not matching and tanking hits from Jiren means what? He already admitted inferiority to Toppo.

I never actually said that Android 17 was of that level. You've kind of misunderstood the point. Android 17 traded blows with Ribrianne even though the former is actually vastly more powerful.

Goku trading blows with Zamasu is meaningless in itself.

2. Zamasu was stabbed through, had his attack stopped, his attacks dodged, got pummeled and was hit by a Final Flash that should have killed him. He was completely overpowered.

3. No that's still an assumption. A character pretending to be a being a bad guy doesn't mean he then proceeds to fight at a minute fraction of his power. Attitude doesn't affect power level.

4. That doesn't actually make any sense. Where Zamasu was able to land a grand total of one attack on a drained Super Saiyan Trunks. Trunks was able to hit Zamasu plenty of times and would have killed him had he not been immortal.

5. No you're doing the very same thing I mentioned. Assuming that every time Zamasu is hit he does so on purpose. What Trunks actually says is that after he is hit, he loses focus because he revels in his immortality. This has little to do with Trunks being able to hit him at all.

Which is why when the two first clashed, Zamasu couldn't lay a hand on Trunks whereas Trunks pummeled Zamasu.

6. He was different in an unexplained way. You don't know that it wasn't about his immortality because they never said what was different in the first place.

7. That video there is just proving my point lol. In that entire video he hits Goku one time. That accounts for one out of his four hits. I know it's only four hits because in the entire time you've been denying it you haven't even bothered to point out one other occasion.

Your other comment also doesn't work because Trunks was Super Saiyan 2 level and Goku Black never flicked him and wouldn't have got kicked upside a building.

1. Again you are repeating the same nonsense.

A) Getting forced to use a level of power by your opponent does mean that character is that level of power. Its simple logic.

B) And if A17 is stronger than SSG as your argument says, then that still means he's way above Base Goku, and it would still make the Black Hole scene a massive outlier/inconsistency. You would still be wrong either way.

C) Weaker than Base Toppo =/= not being SSB level. You're still using the "forms are tiers" fallacy.

2. F.Zamasu was largely dicking around (for reasons I've already hammed down), since he had no problem fighting off SSB Goku in that same episode and afterward.

3. Attitude in DB reflects effort. There's not a single line in the show, nor is there any sign that A17 was using his full power against Ribrianne. If a character is not taking a fight seriously (A17 had the same disinterested expression that Suppressed Jiren had fighting SSB Goku in the hour special), then they are clearly not going all out. You just desperately wanna downplay 17, which neither the anime nor manga supports.

4. Again you repeat the same falsehood using the same fallacies, and no, Trunks (without Rage) wouldn't have been beaten F.Zamasu even if he wasn't immortal. That's just a baseless assumption you made.

5. This is just complete nonsense (and more denialism). He wouldn't be reveling in his immortality if he wasn't letting Trunks and others hit him (logic 101).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co
There's another example of F.Zamasu clearly tanking an attack on purpose (he even has a smile on his face as Goku charges at him).

6. He was obviously talking about his power (since he parried a SSB punch, while Present Zamasu could only match up to SSJ2-level attacks), more so since he clearly didn't know about his immortality until he fought Trunks after Goku. Any non-biased viewer can see that.

Also in DB, when someone says "there's something different about this fighter", they're nearly always talking about their power.

7. A) "he only hit him 4 times", pure bullshit.

B) And in that new video I posted above we see F.Zamasu casually block a punch from an angry SSB Goku. That wouldn't be possible if he wasn't SSB level.

C) "Your other comment also doesn't work because Trunks was Super Saiyan 2 level and Goku Black never flicked him and wouldn't have got kicked upside a building."

This actually completely debunks all your attempts to downplay F.Zamasu in the anime. Because if you think SSJ2 Trunks kicking Rose Black through a building (and Black not just flicking him) doesn't prove that Black isn't just SSJ2, then you logically can't use SSJ2 Trunks fighting F.Zamasu as proof that he's just SSJ2 level either. You'd be making a double-standard if you did.

[Miracles]

You still don't get it smh. So you're saying that Vegeta merely using the red-blue switch trick would allow him to use over 5000x more power than he in their 1st fight? That's still retarded.

It's you who doesn't get it really cause if you did you wouldn't be giving out headcanon numbers like 5000X. We don't know the numerical gains. However that doesn't change the fact that Vegeta trained and got stronger. COUPLED with the red and blue switch allowing him to utilize FULL POWER BLUE with each attack, using more power due to none of it being wasted.

"Immortality" can't explain F.Zamasu being able to hurt an all-out, on-guard, SSB Goku/vegeta & Rage Trunks multiple times. Having Immortality has nothing to do with your offense, your argument fails.

lol

Pushing Goku away into the streets isn't damage. Just more bad writing from TOEI. Especially when Zamas couldn't overpower SSJ Trunks later. You just keep showing how Zamas was all over the place.

In Goku's 1st fight with F.Zamasu he commented on his power after he casually parried (not tanked) a punch from SSB Goku. And for the last time, he didn't lose to Trunks at all in ep.57. Stop making BS up. And F.Zamasu fought SSb Goku 1st (not after fighting Trunks) and there is no line in the anime that's says he was mean't to be only SSJ2 level there (you still haven't given any proof from the show itself nor any guide from Toei).

The story repeatedly said Zamas immortality was a threat and they only commented on Black's power. Zamas lost to SSJ Trunks. He only survived cause of his immortality. After Trunks cut him the first time and later blasted him. He lost the actual fight. Also, lololol, Goku never stated anything about Zamas power in their first fight. You are going to have to do better if you want to try and rewrite TOEI's story that Zamas was only a threat other than his invincibility.

That is the most illogical argument ever. Why would he drop his after hit when there's nothing hitting him then? That makes no sense. And in that scene, Trunks clearly states that F.Zamasu tanks attacks on purpose.

"RoF Freeza wouldn't be Black arc Blue Goku level" "So your example for Zamas needing to be healed from basic attacks from blue is more headcanon."

Thanks for proving my point. You finally admitted that "SSB-level" isn't the same exact power in every saga. So being weaker than Black arc SSB =/= not being SSB level.

Pay attention, if RoF Godlen Freeza will get one shotted by U6 Blue Goku then HE ISN'T BLUE LEVEL. The levels change by getting higher every arc. Zamas wasn't Blue level for the fact that he had to regenerate MULTIPLE times from normal attacks from Blue Goku and Vegeta.

Read the screenshots again, Zamas drops his guard AFTER getting hit to boast, NOT BEFORE. That's exactly what Zamas did right after that statement after Trunks hit him too. While boasting Trunks went after Black. So that means Zamas doesn't purposely get hit but he gets tagged because of lack of ability.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So I've been thinking........ how much stronger is SSB than SSG?

Right now, all media agree that it's a lot stronger, and the difference between the two forms currently looks to be somewhat the same between mediums.

So far, 10 times seems to be the most reasonable estimate in my own personal opinion, but I've seen people suggest it being as low as 2 times or even as high as 50. What about you guys? How much stronger do you guys think SSB is than SSG?

[ruler9871]

It's you who doesn't get it really cause if you did you wouldn't be giving out headcanon numbers like 5000X. We don't know the numerical gains. However that doesn't change the fact that Vegeta trained and got stronger. COUPLED with the red and blue switch allowing him to utilize FULL POWER BLUE with each attack, using more power due to none of it being wasted.

That's still stupid for all the reasons I've said lol.

Pushing them away isn't hurting. BTW this is just more bad writing from TOEI. Like base Black handling Blue Vegeta.

1. You still haven't proven to that was mean't to be SSJ2 level in the anime.

2. If F.Zamasu wasn't SSB level he wouldn't be abled to trade, block and attack serious SSB level characters at all. Simple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

3. Base Black when he fought SSB Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Base Black in his debut (this was even stated so). You're assuming that his base power remained the same throughout the saga, which is explicitly false.

The story repeatedly said Zamas immortality was a threat and they only commented on Black's power. Zamas lost to SSJ Trunks. He only survived cause of his immortality. After Trunks cut him the first time and later blasted him. He lost the actual fight. Also, lololol, Goku never stated anything about Zamas power in their first fight. You are going to have to do better if you want to try and rewrite TOEI's story that Zamas was only a threat other than his invincibility.

You keep repeating the same falsehoods over-and-over again.

1) No, F.Zamasu never lost to SSJ Trunks at any point.

2) SSB Goku clearly commented on F.Zamasu's power in their 1st clash (since he didn't even know about his immortality at that point).

Pay attention, if RoF Godlen Freeza will get one shotted by U6 Blue Goku then HE ISN'T BLUE LEVEL. The levels change by getting higher every arc. Zamas wasn't Blue level for the fact that he had to regenerate MULTIPLE times from normal attacks from Blue Goku and Vegeta.

Read the screenshots again, Zamas drops his guard AFTER getting hit to boast, NOT BEFORE. That's exactly what Zamas did right after that statement after Trunks hit him too. While boasting Trunks went after Black. So that means Zamas doesn't purposely get hit but he gets tagged because of lack of ability.

1. You are assuming that there's little-to-no power increase between RoF and the start of the Black arc, which is clearly false. Why know for a fact that RoF Golden Freeza is SSB-level because he matched RoF SSB Goku (who is way weaker than Black arc SSB Goku even at the start of the saga).

2. You are still assuming that forms are tiers, which is clearly false. And you're still making the "weaker than X =/= not SSB level" fallacy.

3. You still aren't making any sense. Why would he drop his guard when there's nothing to guard? Now it sound's like you are just desperate to downplay.

And he's a another blatant example of F.Zamasu tanking an attack on purpose before it happens, and then casually blocking a SSB Goku punch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Its clear you're just being in denial.

[ruler9871]

So I've been thinking........ how much stronger is SSB than SSG?

Right now, all media agree that it's a lot stronger, and the difference between the two forms currently looks to be somewhat the same between mediums.

So far, 10 times seems to be the most reasonable estimate in my own personal opinion, but I've seen people suggest it being as low as 2 times or even as high as 50. What about you guys? How much stronger do you guys think SSB is than SSG?

Well according to the DBS manga, normal SSB is 5x SSG (its unknown how stronger Complete SSB is).

Meanwhile both the RoF movie and DBS anime suggest that normal SSB is at least 50x SSG, because:

1. Goku in RoF says that SSB is when you combine SSG with SSJ1. SSJ1 is a 50x multiplier of base, so logically SSB would have to be 50x SSG.

2. The Goku vs Kefla fight in the anime, When SSG Goku fought Base Kefla he got fodderized, but when SSB Goku fought SSJ1 Kefla he did somewhat better. So that means SSB's multiplier in the anime might be even higher.

[Miracles]

That's still stupid for all the reasons I've said lol.

Just cause you don't like the reason doesn't mean it's nonsensical. You are just being stubborn.

1. You still haven't proven to that was mean't to be SSJ2 level in the anime.

2. If F.Zamasu wasn't SSB level he wouldn't be abled to trade, block and attack serious SSB level characters at all. Simple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

3. Base Black when he fought SSB Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Base Black in his debut (this was even stated so). You're assuming that his base power remained the same throughout the saga, which is explicitly false.

lol Wrong, Base Black surprised Vegeta when he sped to him unknowingly and touched his chin, blocked his blue punches in base, took a bunch of punches and SMILED and oh boy, roll out the red carpet, base Black dropped kicked Blue Vegeta and made him hurt!! Then pwned him in rose calling him an appetizer, lol. More proof of TOEI's bad writing.

Zamas only can trade blows with them because of his immortality/invincibility. Please stop ignoring this fact.

The fact that Zamas got overpowered by SSJ Trunks twice and the manga states Trunks is more powerful than him is PROOF that Zamas is weaker than SSJ2 Trunks. Neither TOEI or the manga stated/showed he is stronger.

You keep repeating the same falsehoods over-and-over again.

1) No, F.Zamasu never lost to SSJ Trunks at any point.

2) SSB Goku clearly commented on F.Zamasu's power in their 1st clash (since he didn't even know about his immortality at that point).

Goku didn't comment on Zamas power in the Japanese sub. You keep posting headcanon. Zamas got ran through by Trunks sword and blasted. His immortality only saved him.

1. You are assuming that there's little-to-no power increase between RoF and the start of the Black arc, which is clearly false. Why know for a fact that RoF Golden Freeza is SSB-level because he matched RoF SSB Goku (who is way weaker than Black arc SSB Goku even at the start of the saga).

2. You are still assuming that forms are tiers, which is clearly false. And you're still making the "weaker than X =/= not SSB level" fallacy.

3. You still aren't making any sense. Why would he drop his guard when there's nothing to guard? Now it sound's like you are just desperate to downplay.

And he's a another blatant example of F.Zamasu tanking an attack on purpose before it happens, and then casually blocking a SSB Goku punch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Its clear you're just being in denial.

Wow, you are reaching teribly, now you are trying to take one instance where Zamas allowed himself to be hit and pretending he does this ALL THE TIME when in fact he does not. There is no in story explanation that says he does, only your fanfic. Trunks stated he drops his guard after he is hit just to boast. That's a canoncial fact. This is EXACTLY what Zamas does against Ikari Trunks too. Again that is just more proof of TOEI's inconsistency and your headcanon trying to make out like Zamas does that all the time is false.

I used the RoF Freeza as an example ONLY not a factual concept. However, it is a fact that if Freeza gets one shotted by U6 Blue Goku he is NOT blue level. You trying to make up some nonsense about being blue level back when still means you are blue level later is headcanon and contradictory to DB's plot progression of power.

[ruler9871]

Just cause you don't like the reason doesn't mean it's nonsensical. You are just being stubborn.

The reasoning is still bad because it doesn't cover that big of a power boost at all.

lol Wrong, Base Black surprised Vegeta when he sped to him unknowingly and touched his chin, blocked his blue punches in base, took a bunch of punches and SMILED and oh boy, roll out the red carpet, base Black dropped kicked Blue Vegeta and made him hurt!! Then pwned him in rose calling him an appetizer, lol. More proof of TOEI's bad writing.

Zamas only can trade blows with them because of his immortality/invincibility. Please stop ignoring this fact.

The fact that Zamas got overpowered by SSJ Trunks twice and the manga states Trunks is more powerful than him is PROOF that Zamas is weaker than SSJ2 Trunks. Neither TOEI or the manga stated/showed he is stronger.

1. You are still assuming that Base Black in that episode was only just as strong as he was in his debut, which is false and stupid.

2. Blocking & parrying attack's has nothing to do with immorality. Regardless of his immorality, F.Zamasu would still have to be SSB-level on other to trade with SSB Goku at all, a simple fact you keep denying.

3. A) Anime =/= manga, another fact you keep denying.

B) SSJ2 Trunks was never stated to be stronger than F.Zamasu in the anime, and you keep repeating the same false nonsense about SSJ Trunks overpowering him which never happened.

Goku didn't comment on Zamas power in the Japanese sub. You keep posting headcanon. Zamas got ran through by Trunks sword and blasted. His immortality only saved him.

Pure BS which I've debunked numerous times already. The context made it clear that he was talking about F.Zamasu's power in the Japanese sub. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ9cWbGF1g

Wow, you are reaching teribly, now you are trying to take one instance where Zamas allowed himself to be hit and pretending he does this ALL THE TIME when in fact he does not. There is no in story explanation that says he does only your fanfic. Trunks stated he drops his guard after he is hit to boast. This is EXACTLY what Zamas does against Ikari Trunks too. Again that is just more proof of TOEI's inconsistency and your headcanon trying to make out like Zamas does that all the time.

I used the RoF Freezaas an example ONLY not a factual thing. However it is a fact that if Freeza gets one shotted by U6 Blue Goku he is NOT blue level. You trying to make up some nonsense about being blue level back when still means you are blue level later is headcanon and contradictory to DB's plot progression of power.

YOU are the one that's reaching. YOU are the one making BS headcanon.

1. Trunks made it clear that's what F.Zamasu does in general terms. Not just in specific times. And you still haven't explained away the video I've posted.

2. "You trying to make up some nonsense about being blue level back when still means you are blue level later"

This is illogical nonsense, because if you're at least equal to RoF SSB level but weaker than Black arc SSB leve (which is higher), then you're still logically SSB level. You can't keep your arguments straight smh.

3. You still haven't given any proof that F.Zamasu was mean't to be SSJ2 level in the anime. The only inconsistencies here are your own headcanon and arguments.

[Miracles]

The reasoning is still bad because it doesn't cover that big of a power boost at all.

You mean it doesn't satisfy your headcanon about the amount of boost you want it to be.

1. You are still assuming that Base Black in that episode was only just as strong as he was in his debut, which is false and stupid.

2. Blocking & parrying attack's has nothing to do with immorality. Regardless of his immorality, F.Zamasu would still have to be SSB-level on other to trade with SSB Goku at all, a simple fact you keep denying.

3. A) Anime =/= manga, another fact you keep denying.

B) SSJ2 Trunks was never stated to be stronger than F.Zamasu in the anime, and you keep repeating the same false nonsense about SSJ Trunks overpowering him which never happened.

Then how did Trunks dodge block and pierce Zamas then? overpower him? lololol I can't wait for more of your headcanon. Anime and manga BOTH have Trunks beat Zamas, that is a fact. No one said anime and manga were the same. Future Zamas can not be blue level when he gets overpowered by SSJ Trunks. And I didn't say or assume that Black was just as strong as he was in his debut. That again is you misreading things just to fit your narrative. Base Black had no business laughing off SSB Vegeta's punches, lol. Bad writing.

Pure BS which I've debunked numerous times already. The context made it clear that he was talking about F.Zamasu's power in the Japanese sub. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ9cWbGF1g

Where is the comment?

YOU are the one that's reaching. YOU are the one making BS headcanon.

1. Trunks made it clear that's what F.Zamasu does in general terms. Not just in specific times. And you still haven't explained away the video I've posted.

2. "You trying to make up some nonsense about being blue level back when still means you are blue level later"

This is illogical nonsense, because if you're at least equal to RoF SSB level but weaker than Black arc SSB leve (which is higher), then you're still logically SSB level. You can't keep your arguments straight smh.

3. You still haven't given any proof that F.Zamasu was mean't to be SSJ2 level in the anime. The only inconsistencies here are your own headcanon and arguments.

The proof is Zamas got beat up by SSJ Trunks in the anime so he is weaker than SSJ2. lol
Wrong, Being Blue level then does not mean you are Blue level now. It's called plot strength escalation. it does not allow what you are proposing. The video you posted does not disprove Trunks statement and Zamas acting out that claim about Zamas dropping his guard AFTER he gets hit. You posted one instance where he lets himself get hit. Doesn't prove he did that EVERY TIME like you claim. Again all it proves is what I've been saying all along...TOEI'S bad writing/inconsistency.

[ZombieVito]

So I've been thinking........ how much stronger is SSB than SSG?

Right now, all media agree that it's a lot stronger, and the difference between the two forms currently looks to be somewhat the same between mediums.

So far, 10 times seems to be the most reasonable estimate in my own personal opinion, but I've seen people suggest it being as low as 2 times or even as high as 50. What about you guys? How much stronger do you guys think SSB is than SSG?

50 times.

It's a Saiyan with the power of God, turning Super Saiyan.

Rose being Black's Super Saiyan form also points to it being 50 times.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Literally nothing implies that Future and Present Zamasu are any different. Goku's statement isn't an indicator. He didn't know what was different about Future Zamasu. If that difference was power then it would've been stated. It's clearly just hinting at his immortality which was revealed later on.

The scaling in the series is Goku Black>Goku/Vegeta>Trunks>Zamasu. It is the same in both mediums.

[ZombieVito]

So I have two questions.

How strong was Future Trunks compared to Goku during their sparring match? When Goku turns SS3, Trunks says he will use his full power and then was shocked Goku blocked his attack. Was Trunks stronger than Goku in equal forms there?

What are your multipliers for Super Saiyan Rage?

[ankokudaishogun]

How strong was Future Trunks compared to Goku during their sparring match? When Goku turns SS3, Trunks says he will use his full power and then was shocked Goku blocked his attack. Was Trunks stronger than Goku in equal forms there?

Possibly. Vegeta's Enraged SS2 against Beerus was stronger than Goku's SS3 as well.

Trunk's SSRage is probably about SSGod-level

[Bullza]

Post

1. It happened, don't blame me, blame the show. You also miss the point of what I mean when I bring up the Black Hole scene anyway. Just because character A forces character B into a particular form doesn't mean they are as strong. All that means is that they are stronger than the earlier forms.

2. No again that's your assumption. There was nothing to suggest that Zamasu was dicking around when he got overpowered by Trunks, that's merely your excuse to explain away why Zamasu was so weak. You're applying this idea of letting his guard down and enjoying getting hit to everything even though that's not the case.

He was just overpowered because he's weaker than Trunks like they made clear in the manga. It's no more complicated than that.

3. Likewise at the same time there's no comment of Android 17 holding back his power against Ribrianne nor would there be any reason to. But no I'm not downplaying Android 17, again you're not really getting the point here.

4. Sorry but the opposite of what say was already shown, Trunks ran Zamasu through the chest with his sword. Had he not been immortal he would have died right there. You can assume the Final Flash wouldn't have killed him I suppose but even then Goku who had just fought Zamasu wondered himself if Trunks had actually killed him which wouldn't really make much sense if Zamasu was leagues above Trunks.

5. Except the key word that was mentioned was "after". It is after he gets hit that he revels in his immortality. What you're doing is assuming that he's letting himself get pummelled so he can revel in it which is wrong. The Zamasu who was overpowered by Trunks wasn't losing on purpose, he was losing because he was weaker.

6. No that's another assumption. If he were stronger than he'd just say he was stronger like they do with everyone else. Goku can sense energy he would he known straight off before they even began fighting that he would be stronger. He said there was something "different", not that he was stronger.

7. Pure bullshit and yet you've still after several posts done nothing to prove this wrong. The only thing you've done is provide "proof" by showing me Zamasu hit Goku one time which was one of the four that I already acknowledged. You keep complaining about this while doing nothing to prove me otherwise and you haven't because you're unable to find these other hits.

There's no double standard. We know what Super Saiyan 2 Trunks' level is from his fights with Base Goku Black, Super Saiyan 2/3 Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. We know for sure how strong Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is because he overpowered everyone, at one point at the same time. Trunks kicking Goku Black into a building we know is a one off, the same thing happened in the manga.

Likewise because we know how strong Trunks is, that he was shown to overpower Zamasu and even hold his own when he was drained at another point and that Zamasu only ever hit a Super Saiyan Blue level character one time properly throughout the entire arc and that the manga also said he was weaker than Trunks makes it pretty clear too.

Goku Black is stronger than Goku and Vegeta and then way down from that you have Trunks who is stronger than Zamasu.

If you think Zamasu is Blue level because he hit Goku one time then you have to say that Trunks is Rose level for hitting Goku Black one time.

[Bullza]

So I have two questions.

How strong was Future Trunks compared to Goku during their sparring match? When Goku turns SS3, Trunks says he will use his full power and then was shocked Goku blocked his attack. Was Trunks stronger than Goku in equal forms there?

I can't answer the second question but this one is probably a yes. In the manga there was a similar scene where Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Trunks were fighting evenly and then Goku went Super Saiyan 3 and in response Trunks took out his sword and powered up big time.

That pretty much happened in the anime though the comparison to Super Saiyan 3 was different. So just based on that scene I'd have said yes.

That said Super Saiyan 2 Goku did far better against Goku Black than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks did though Goku Black was meant to be holding back but then I don't think it was meant to be by a lot anyway but yeah I'd say Trunks was stronger especially by the time he returned to the future as well.

[Thani]

So I've been thinking........ how much stronger is SSB than SSG?

Right now, all media agree that it's a lot stronger, and the difference between the two forms currently looks to be somewhat the same between mediums.

So far, 10 times seems to be the most reasonable estimate in my own personal opinion, but I've seen people suggest it being as low as 2 times or even as high as 50. What about you guys? How much stronger do you guys think SSB is than SSG?

50 times.

It's a Saiyan with the power of God, turning Super Saiyan.

Rose being Black's Super Saiyan form also points to it being 50 times.

I don't necessarily agree with both statements (the explanation is on point tho), but they do work anyway.

To me, the difference between God and Blue is big alright, but don't require big numbers. No need to translate into the big multiplier, but if I were to, then at least 10 to 50x. It matched SSJ Kefla, whose base was seemingly stronger than God, after all.

About Black, I can't agree with Rose being just SSj. The aura was nothing like it, it was actually identical to Blue's, only colored pink. To me it was his SSGSS, which fits into the story.

Trunks is iffy tho. In the manga he's at least as strong as SSj3 Goku, since his raw power made him get giddy enough to use God for a split second. In the anime, he was definitely on par with Goku on equivalent forms, but was overwhelmed by 3. I believe Black was holding back a lot, since in the anime he only had his Base power and Trunks believed that SSj3 wasn't enough against him, yet both Gokus were evenly matched.

His Rage thing tho, definitely up there. It could match, but not defeat, Rosé Black, who was on par or stronger than the SSB's. So to me, between God and Blue. Would compare him to Base Kefla, actually.