Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

You are making an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy.

Whatever you are trying to say here, there is nothing telling SS boosts SSGod at the same degree it boosts base. When the show itself or licensed material tell more than “this is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”, then I will give you that. The fact that the manga, which is a product Toriyama has some kind of involvement too, has SSGod being more powerful than 1/10th SSBlue makes the debate still open.

This is another false analogy, because "strength" was never stated to be the reason why Base Goku was doing well against SSJ2 Caulifla in the first place, while it explicitly was with Hit.

I said raw strength and pure energy were not the reason they performed well in those cases. Whis pretty much closed the case in both situations. When Goku and Vegeta assumed Hit powered-up after all, Whis told a straight “No.” Hit continued to “power-up” as he dealt more damage to Goku. “Power-up” in this context was explicitly explained to not be a literal power-up. Actually, Hit increased time-skip length at a degree Goku couldn’t keep up, so it was expected he could hit him like he hit Vegeta. When Hit doesn’t activate time-skip everyone can tell he didn’t increase his energy.

[Grand Marshal 1]

We can say the same about the fight between SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Kale and Caulifla. Champa said that it would be impossible for them to lose, as they had 2 Super Saiyans, however we can clearly see that this Goku is casually blocking the attacks from the duo, while the one of them rivaled him in the same form, and the other pushed back a supressed Blue Goku, while using a lesser transformation. Indeee, Whis stated that martial arts aren't just street brawling and that is the point.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, for example, only for letting his thoughts interfere with his fighting, performed very poorly in his attacks in comparison to Mastered Ultra Instinct. Yes, he did get stronger with the last form, however it was stated again and again that due to him not being concentrated and only, that huis attacks didn' have the proper impact, despite having the strength to deliver them succesfully.

Whatever you are trying to say here, there is nothing telling SS boosts SSGod at the same degree it boosts base. When the show itself or licensed material tell more than “this is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”, then I will give you that. The fact that the manga, which is a product Toriyama has some kind of involvement too, has SSGod being more powerful than 1/10th SSBlue makes the debate still open.

I had uploaded a response as to why I believe Blue equals 5× God (which unironically became the seed for the Hit conversation) so yeah, it is still an open debate. I have admitted that it was my opinion and only, so unless I am presented something solid, I will support it with the given facts that back it up, but I am clearly not Toriyama. Just saying, cause we value credibility the most in this forum and every single power scaling DB community.

[ruler9871]

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, for example, only for letting his thoughts interfere with his fighting, performed very poorly in his attacks in comparison to Mastered Ultra Instinct. Yes, he did get stronger with the last form, however it was stated again and again that due to him not being concentrated and only, that huis attacks didn' have the proper impact, despite having the strength to deliver them succesfully.

This is a weak example, because it was stated by Whis himself in the show and in Toei guides that Goku gets stronger after each time he uses Ultra Instinct. That's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.

[Ssb_goku20]

You are making an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy.

Whatever you are trying to say here, there is nothing telling SS boosts SSGod at the same degree it boosts base. When the show itself or licensed material tell more than “this is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”, then I will give you that. The fact that the manga, which is a product Toriyama has some kind of involvement too, has SSGod being more powerful than 1/10th SSBlue makes the debate still open.

It was stated that Vegeta wasn't capable of exerting 1/10 of his Blue form's power and because of it Goku as Ssg was stronger but note it said Vegeta wasn't at 1/10 of Blue's power and that wasn't in reference to Perfected Ssb which is stronger than the normal Ssb form in the Manga due to being the form's full power. Nothing except for Dbs Broly has debunked Ssb being 50 times Ssg but the only reason Ssb isn't 50 times Ssg is because Ssj wasn't even 50 times base. However in the Anime for the T.O.P we know that Goku improved Ssb to where he was able to match Frieza's far more powerful True Golden form so taking what the Anime has done for Ssb and it's multiplier, by the time of the T.O.P Ssb is way more than 50 times Ssg due to Goku's mastery of Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

it was stated by Whis himself in the show and in Toei guides that Goku gets stronger after each time he uses Ultra Instinct. That's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.

Maybe I’m missing something. But wasn’t the reason he got stronger because he got used to let his thoughts and feelings interfere less and less? That’s what I recall Whis explaining when Goku closed his eyes during the second match against Jiren.

taking what the Anime has done for Ssb and it's multiplier, by the time of the T.O.P Ssb is way more than 50 times Ssg due to Goku's mastery of Blue.

I don’t know how you people can think about which accomplishments are required to a powerlevel to be over 50-fold another ridiculously high powerlevel.

[Ssb_goku20]

it was stated by Whis himself in the show and in Toei guides that Goku gets stronger after each time he uses Ultra Instinct. That's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.

Maybe I’m missing something. But wasn’t the reason he got stronger because he got used to let his thoughts and feelings interfere less and less? That’s what I recall Whis explaining when Goku closed his eyes during the second match against Jiren.

taking what the Anime has done for Ssb and it's multiplier, by the time of the T.O.P Ssb is way more than 50 times Ssg due to Goku's mastery of Blue.

I don’t know how you people can think about which accomplishments are required to a powerlevel to be over 50-fold another ridiculously high powerlevel.

You take what has previously been established about Ssj which is stated in the guides to be 50 times base and even without using the guides it was clearly stronger than 20x Kaioken so even if you don't believe in the 50x multiplier then you can't deny it is at least 40x base but that's only a 1.25 difference from 50.

[Hugo Boss]

You take what has previously been established about Ssj which is stated in the guides to be 50 times base and even without using the guides it was clearly stronger than 20x Kaioken so even if you don't believe in the 50x multiplier then you can't deny it is at least 40x base but that's only a 1.25 difference from 50.

This explanation seems solid when Goku fought Freeza in Namek. I just don’t see the correlation with what Goku does as SSGod and SSBlue in Dragon Ball Super.

[Ssb_goku20]

You take what has previously been established about Ssj which is stated in the guides to be 50 times base and even without using the guides it was clearly stronger than 20x Kaioken so even if you don't believe in the 50x multiplier then you can't deny it is at least 40x base but that's only a 1.25 difference from 50.

This explanation seems solid when Goku fought Freeza in Namek. I just don’t see the correlation with what Goku does as SSGod and SSBlue in Dragon Ball Super.

It's cause they gave us the explanation simply it's Goku with Ssg power or God Ki in general ( however you decide to take it ) and he goes Ssj on top of that ( according to the guide of Rof ) but the way Dbs has done God Ki it seems what Goku does is he goes Ssj without letting his Ki leak which is the concept we know that allows to tap into God Ki in the first place however each explanation says it's Ssg going Ssj and doesn't say that God Ki lowers the multiplier in any regards.

[UchihaJogeta]

Forgive me for butting in! I would merely like to share my thoughts!

These numbers are purely fictional for the sake of explanation!
Goku base power: 100
Goku ss1 : 5000 (factual multiplier although technically it could have changed throughout the years?)
Goku ssG : 100000 (1000x as a random multiplier since we do not know what it actually is. As far as I know, it could be any number above 800x, it's up to interpretation.)

Here comes my personal theories! I think I read it somewhere some time ago, forgive me for not remembering so I could give credit .

-theory1: 1000x from ssG + 50x BASE for ss1. = 105000(fun fact. to some degree this would explain how they haven't surpassed Beerus' 70% statement, which I am not sure if is serious or not. Lot's of controversy with that one. Yes I understand that it would make ssB only 5% stronger than ssG, but does it need to be higher honestly?)

-theory2: Achieving god ki somehow boosted the base, BUT, lowered the ssG multiplier.
So an example would be that Goku's 100 base increased to.. Let's say... 1000. Using ssG still ends with him being 100000, but it's only a 100x multiplier now, THEN going super saiyan on top of it makes it a 150x of the 1000 new base = 1500000. That makes ssB 50% stronger than ssG which, to me at least, seems like a very realistic difference between the forms!

I am not ignorantly claiming to be right, take it with a grain of salt aye? I just want to maybe see if this could change the "no you're wrong" talk into something more like "we don't know but we can still discuss"! In reality, the numbers are whatever Toriyama wants them to be There is no need for it to promote negativity

Thanks for reading! Sorry if it was a bunch of uselessness!


Edit: Sorry I forgot! The fact that ss1 is 50x base does not NECCESARILY mean that it's 50x on top of god! It really doesn't! No one is right or wrong!

[ZombieVito]

Glad you guys can see Hit powered up his strength. However, Hit's attack strength growth was so significant that it was able to put Blue Goku on the floor. He couldn't do that before when he tried to power up the way Saiyans do.

He wasn't able to do that to Goku because the latter was predicting the former's attacks. It had nothing to do with power.

Hit was able to put Goku on the floor later because he improved his Time Skip so Goku couldn't put up a guard up. He didn't get stronger at all.

Why are you ignoring where Goku said Hit's attack got him good due to powering up. Just as he expected?

Why are you ignoring that an attack can be powered up without being stronger?

On the case of SSB multiplier in comparison to SSG: We do know that in the manga SSG is stronger than 1/10 of SSB so we can assume SSB is 5 times stronger than SSG but this is incomplete SSB. Completed SSB is much stronger since Goku went from being fodder to Merged Zamasu to being able to fight on par with him so an extra 10 times multiplier seems fitting making the total 50 times of SSG.

[Miracles]

He wasn't able to do that to Goku because the latter was predicting the former's attacks. It had nothing to do with power.

Hit was able to put Goku on the floor later because he improved his Time Skip so Goku couldn't put up a guard up. He didn't get stronger at all.

Why are you ignoring where Goku said Hit's attack got him good due to powering up. Just as he expected?

Why are you ignoring that an attack can be powered up without being stronger?

Please elaborate?

[Grand Marshal 1]

On the case of SSB multiplier in comparison to SSG: We do know that in the manga SSG is stronger than 1/10 of SSB so we can assume SSB is 5 times stronger than SSG but this is incomplete SSB. Completed SSB is much stronger since Goku went from being fodder to Merged Zamasu to being able to fight on par with him so an extra 10 times multiplier seems fitting making the total 50 times of SSG.

I strongly agree. Perfected Super Saiyan Blue should always have a limit, that being 100% of Blue's Full Potential. This is why, when conpared to the Anime, PSSJB should not even be compared with KK Blue, however the boost that it offers could be in the leagues of KK×10 according to the power that is needed in each timeline respectively.

Why are you ignoring where Goku said Hit's attack got him good due to powering up. Just as he expected?

Why are you ignoring that an attack can be powered up without being stronger?

Please elaborate?

I have already stated my opinion about Blue, so I will examine how natural attributes of fighting help you perform better, with the opponent having the illusion that you got stronger, but actually didn't.

1) In the first fight, between the Saiyans Goku and Caulifla, we are presented to Super Saiyan Caulifla, who by learning how to use her power rivals Goku in strength in the same form. Then Caulifla powers-up to Grade III SSJ. It has been universally accepted that the form offers great power for reduced speed. If we always take speed into account in fights, then why don't we do so with other fighting attributes? Reduced speed, thus, translates into poor performance.

Goku: "You have sacrificed speed for strength...also you shouldn't use that form for long fights"

2) Goku's quote will serve as the stepping stone for my next attribute. That being stamina. Time and tiee again have we seen characters losing to fights because of their depleted stamina. It is more evident in the manga, with the case of Vegeta Blue, who due to being extremely exhausted, didn't even exert 1/10th of his true power (but bear in mind that upon activation for the first time, SSJB has explosive power that pushes the form to 100% without the need for the perfection). A tired Goku from the ToP, who was nearly at the brink of death, was ableto push back a tired Jiren only with the help of a near-dead (as well) Freeza and 17 (who was considered dead ). For Jiren to fall so much in terms of power, it becomes clear that stamina is very important in a fight. Goku could hardly sustain his SSJ while previously, he could hardly do the same with SSJ3. Point is, reduced stamina, means poor performance too.

Caulifla (as a SSJ2 facing off against Base Goku): "Aren't you transforming?"
Goku: "I am tired just from fighting Jiren"

3) Pure skill. Dragon Ball is a franchise that is pretty much about martial arts and fighting. However, this isn't WWE RAW. No, Goku has been training ever since he was a Baby in different techniques that will give him the edge against even MORE powerful opponents. Being a very good martial artist comes with the fact that in most fights you will be the victor, as others cannot counter your fighting skills and even if they find a way to do so, you pretty much have them at hand. In reference to the media it has been stated that superior skill alone is enought to overpower opponents with greater power. Roshi proved that to us when fighting off against Ganos in his second form, who had the stamina, the speed and the power, but Roshi's skill nearly had him the victor.

Goku: "What is wrong? You can't beat me like that!" (In reference to Caulifla's low tier martial art skills)
Caulifla: "Why? Why can't I hit him?!" (This makes it evident that despite her having the speed and the stregth, Goku's skill is more than enough)
Whis: "Martial arts are not street brawling"

4) Abilities. Instant Transmission, special attacks, suprise techniques, anything even a Solar Flare can give you the edge in a fight, if used correctly. I mean, you do not have to resort to strength alone to defeat someone. Trick them, confuse them, overwhelm them with bizzare attacks (in the case of DB at least). For example Majin Buu, a being that was initially downplayed by the heroes. They later on found out that he was far deadlier than what they thought. His regeneration, his abilities overall made him stand in the top at the time. His absorbtion technique had to be faced by a Potara Fusion character. It was still Majin Buu that got an advantage of his abilities and pushed the heroes to go for Vegito. Lack of some basic abilities can sometimes take everything away from you. So yeah, poor performance in fights without having them.

There are still many things that I can adress, however this is just a general concept of why someone DOESN'T need to get stronger to defeat an enemy. Be open minded. Hit and his techniques are the peak of this. He never rivaled a Blue KK×10 let alone a Blue KK×20 in terms of power, so why would he even put Jiren in a worse position than Goku did (with the exception of the Spirit Bomb)?

Lastly, Ultra Instinct is the manifestation of someone getting advantage of everything but power in order to overpower someone. Goku got naturally stronger and the two forms of UI had some sort of a multiplier, BUT it was that Goku's fighting style merged with Ultra Instinct when he actually got "stronger" (in a metaphorical sense) as his attacks were in perfect synchronization, and so were his defense postures, ki blasts etc. What we learn is that the invincible fihter is not going to be someone with the absolute power (like Jiren) but the one who will be the total master, the undefiable god of martial arts.

Manga. Roshi immitated the principles of UI and standed against Jiren. End of dicussion. Power is not everything.

[Ssb_goku20]

On the case of SSB multiplier in comparison to SSG: We do know that in the manga SSG is stronger than 1/10 of SSB so we can assume SSB is 5 times stronger than SSG but this is incomplete SSB. Completed SSB is much stronger since Goku went from being fodder to Merged Zamasu to being able to fight on par with him so an extra 10 times multiplier seems fitting making the total 50 times of SSG.

I strongly agree. Perfected Super Saiyan Blue should always have a limit, that being 100% of Blue's Full Potential. This is why, when conpared to the Anime, PSSJB should not even be compared with KK Blue, however the boost that it offers could be in the leagues of KK×10 according to the power that is needed in each timeline respectively.

Except Perfected Ssb is stated to be Blue's full power which is something that Goku and Vegeta was trying to use for a longer duration for awhile ( lore wise ) unlike in the Anime where it's stated that they've used full power multiple times in the story : against Golden Frieza, Hit, Goku Black, Fused Zamasu and against Jiren multiple times even the summary for episode 123 states that Goku was back at full power or went full power Ssb and then he stacked 20x Kaioken on top of it, there may 2 different translations but they both confirm Goku was at full power during that episode and wasn't weakened at all.

[Grand Marshal 1]

On the case of SSB multiplier in comparison to SSG: We do know that in the manga SSG is stronger than 1/10 of SSB so we can assume SSB is 5 times stronger than SSG but this is incomplete SSB. Completed SSB is much stronger since Goku went from being fodder to Merged Zamasu to being able to fight on par with him so an extra 10 times multiplier seems fitting making the total 50 times of SSG.

I strongly agree. Perfected Super Saiyan Blue should always have a limit, that being 100% of Blue's Full Potential. This is why, when conpared to the Anime, PSSJB should not even be compared with KK Blue, however the boost that it offers could be in the leagues of KK×10 according to the power that is needed in each timeline respectively.

Except Perfected Ssb is stated to be Blue's full power which is something that Goku and Vegeta was trying to use for a longer duration for awhile ( lore wise ) unlike in the Anime where it's stated that they've used full power multiple times in the story : against Golden Frieza, Hit, Goku Black, Fused Zamasu and against Jiren multiple times even the summary for episode 123 states that Goku was back at full power or went full power Ssb and then he stacked 20x Kaioken on top of it, there may 2 different translations but they both confirm Goku was at full power during that episode and wasn't weakened at all.

Yeah. In the Anime they have used Full Potential Blue many times. I am aware of PSSJB being Full Potential SSJB. This is why as a form, it cannot go beyond Blue's 100% capacity. If we highball, we can say that Goku and Vegeta tend to use 50% of FP Blue most of the times, with PSSJB being a ×2 on top of that. The multiplier can change, but it will never exceed Blue's max performance. Which is why we were introduced to power-ups of the Perfected variant, such as the Power Stressed and the Evolved one. Forms that are drastically less powerful (in terms of multiplication) than their anime counterparts, which are different forms, nonetheless.

So it is always based on (at least in the manga) the current level of the character who is using Blue, to determine a multiplier for the perfected variant. This isn't the case in the Anime, however we do also get there the same problems from the form, so assuming that while using it the Saiyans always perform at their 100% is false. We still face the same problems. Or else there would be no need for the God-to-Blue technique to enter the anime or for Goku and Vegeta to power-up to very limit while using the form in multiple instances, saying that they are using their "full power". Full Potential Blue is still a thing in the anime.

And Goku can stack KK on top of a supressed Blue if he wishes to. He has learned a stable version of KK×20 (perhaps even more) so it shouldn't be a problem to apply lower multiplications whenever he wanted. It offers a much quicker boost. Still, he usually tends to do so after reaching his limit. However sayong he cannot do that is also false.

[Ssb_goku20]

I strongly agree. Perfected Super Saiyan Blue should always have a limit, that being 100% of Blue's Full Potential. This is why, when conpared to the Anime, PSSJB should not even be compared with KK Blue, however the boost that it offers could be in the leagues of KK×10 according to the power that is needed in each timeline respectively.

Except Perfected Ssb is stated to be Blue's full power which is something that Goku and Vegeta was trying to use for a longer duration for awhile ( lore wise ) unlike in the Anime where it's stated that they've used full power multiple times in the story : against Golden Frieza, Hit, Goku Black, Fused Zamasu and against Jiren multiple times even the summary for episode 123 states that Goku was back at full power or went full power Ssb and then he stacked 20x Kaioken on top of it, there may 2 different translations but they both confirm Goku was at full power during that episode and wasn't weakened at all.

Yeah. In the Anime they have used Full Potential Blue many times. I am aware of PSSJB being Full Potential SSJB. This is why as a form, it cannot go beyond Blue's 100% capacity. If we highball, we can say that Goku and Vegeta tend to use 50% of FP Blue most of the times, with PSSJB being a ×2 on top of that. The multiplier can change, but it will never exceed Blue's max performance. Which is why we were introduced to power-ups of the Perfected variant, such as the Power Stressed and the Evolved one. Forms that are drastically less powerful (in terms of multiplication) than their anime counterparts, which are different forms, nonetheless.

So it is always based on (at least in the manga) the current level of the character who is using Blue, to determine a multiplier for the perfected variant. This isn't the case in the Anime, however we do also get there the same problems from the form, so assuming that while using it the Saiyans always perform at their 100% is false. We still face the same problems. Or else there would be no need for the God-to-Blue technique to enter the anime or for Goku and Vegeta to power-up to very limit while using the form in multiple instances, saying that they are using their "full power". Full Potential Blue is still a thing in the anime.

And Goku can stack KK on top of a supressed Blue if he wishes to. He has learned a stable version of KK×20 (perhaps even more) so it shouldn't be a problem to apply lower multiplications whenever he wanted. It offers a much quicker boost. Still, he usually tends to do so after reaching his limit. However sayong he cannot do that is also false.

That God to Blue was only in 1 episode and that was the episode where Ssb is stated to drain heavily for plot purposes as they wanted to bring Ssg back and they just did what the Manga did but they also condricted themselves as much later on while trying to recover stamina Goku had used Ssb to fight Jiren and despite taking multiple strong hits ( plus panting ) he still fully recovered his stamina and for like 3 episodes straight used 20x Kaioken on top of it however according to those what 3 or 4 episodes Goku shouldn't have recovered stamina or use 20x Ssb Kaioken in fact he shouldn't have been able to use Kaioken with Blue period if Blue was so straining. So honestly i think they was trying to say Blue requires more energy to transform into than Ssg rather than Blue drains stamina heavily. The only differences between Perfected Ssb in the Manga and the basic Ssb in the Anime is that Perfected Ssb requires a certain amount of concentration to maintain which in that regards I'll place it equal to Ssb Kaioken in the Anime. The second thing that differs is that when using Blue's full power in the Manga requires them to seal Blue's overflowing power inside them which removes the Aura but the Anime depicts it as simply powering up which still has an Aura. Basically what I'm saying is if you were to have Manga Goku and Anime Goku at the same power level including having their forms give the same multiplier than Perfected Ssb = Ssb once the Anime Goku goes full power and Power Stressed Perfected Ssb = Ssb Kaioken ( first level ). I don't know where the place the evolved Perfected Blue form because there's not a lot to go on but we do know it's stronger than the Power Stressed Perfected Ssb form.

[Miracles]

Why are you ignoring that an attack can be powered up without being stronger?

Please elaborate?

I have already stated my opinion about Blue, so I will examine how natural attributes of fighting help you perform better, with the opponent having the illusion that you got stronger, but actually didn't.

1) In the first fight, between the Saiyans Goku and Caulifla, we are presented to Super Saiyan Caulifla, who by learning how to use her power rivals Goku in strength in the same form. Then Caulifla powers-up to Grade III SSJ. It has been universally accepted that the form offers great power for reduced speed. If we always take speed into account in fights, then why don't we do so with other fighting attributes? Reduced speed, thus, translates into poor performance.

Goku: "You have sacrificed speed for strength...also you shouldn't use that form for long fights"

2) Goku's quote will serve as the stepping stone for my next attribute. That being stamina. Time and tiee again have we seen characters losing to fights because of their depleted stamina. It is more evident in the manga, with the case of Vegeta Blue, who due to being extremely exhausted, didn't even exert 1/10th of his true power (but bear in mind that upon activation for the first time, SSJB has explosive power that pushes the form to 100% without the need for the perfection). A tired Goku from the ToP, who was nearly at the brink of death, was ableto push back a tired Jiren only with the help of a near-dead (as well) Freeza and 17 (who was considered dead ). For Jiren to fall so much in terms of power, it becomes clear that stamina is very important in a fight. Goku could hardly sustain his SSJ while previously, he could hardly do the same with SSJ3. Point is, reduced stamina, means poor performance too.

Caulifla (as a SSJ2 facing off against Base Goku): "Aren't you transforming?"
Goku: "I am tired just from fighting Jiren"

3) Pure skill. Dragon Ball is a franchise that is pretty much about martial arts and fighting. However, this isn't WWE RAW. No, Goku has been training ever since he was a Baby in different techniques that will give him the edge against even MORE powerful opponents. Being a very good martial artist comes with the fact that in most fights you will be the victor, as others cannot counter your fighting skills and even if they find a way to do so, you pretty much have them at hand. In reference to the media it has been stated that superior skill alone is enought to overpower opponents with greater power. Roshi proved that to us when fighting off against Ganos in his second form, who had the stamina, the speed and the power, but Roshi's skill nearly had him the victor.

Goku: "What is wrong? You can't beat me like that!" (In reference to Caulifla's low tier martial art skills)
Caulifla: "Why? Why can't I hit him?!" (This makes it evident that despite her having the speed and the stregth, Goku's skill is more than enough)
Whis: "Martial arts are not street brawling"

4) Abilities. Instant Transmission, special attacks, suprise techniques, anything even a Solar Flare can give you the edge in a fight, if used correctly. I mean, you do not have to resort to strength alone to defeat someone. Trick them, confuse them, overwhelm them with bizzare attacks (in the case of DB at least). For example Majin Buu, a being that was initially downplayed by the heroes. They later on found out that he was far deadlier than what they thought. His regeneration, his abilities overall made him stand in the top at the time. His absorbtion technique had to be faced by a Potara Fusion character. It was still Majin Buu that got an advantage of his abilities and pushed the heroes to go for Vegito. Lack of some basic abilities can sometimes take everything away from you. So yeah, poor performance in fights without having them.

There are still many things that I can adress, however this is just a general concept of why someone DOESN'T need to get stronger to defeat an enemy. Be open minded. Hit and his techniques are the peak of this. He never rivaled a Blue KK×10 let alone a Blue KK×20 in terms of power, so why would he even put Jiren in a worse position than Goku did (with the exception of the Spirit Bomb)?

Lastly, Ultra Instinct is the manifestation of someone getting advantage of everything but power in order to overpower someone. Goku got naturally stronger and the two forms of UI had some sort of a multiplier, BUT it was that Goku's fighting style merged with Ultra Instinct when he actually got "stronger" (in a metaphorical sense) as his attacks were in perfect synchronization, and so were his defense postures, ki blasts etc. What we learn is that the invincible fihter is not going to be someone with the absolute power (like Jiren) but the one who will be the total master, the undefiable god of martial arts.

Manga. Roshi immitated the principles of UI and standed against Jiren. End of dicussion. Power is not everything.

You have a warped view on Dragonball. UI was stated by Tien to give a power boost. Roshi used principles of UI against Jiren but still was stated to be no threat to Jiren and got one shotted, He also had to beat Ganos with raw power when Ganos got so far out of his strength class too in the anime, Caulifla pwned Goku when she "adapted" to his fighting/martial arts style and tricks. Therefore Goku had to transform to match her. Your Goku statement about Caulifla going SSJ grade three sacrificing speed for strength only helps the fact that DB is all about balance in strength speed etc. Ki size is the key to winning as stated by Toriyama and Hit was stated to have his strength improve along with time skip. These are stated facts.

[ZombieVito]

Why are you ignoring where Goku said Hit's attack got him good due to powering up. Just as he expected?

Why are you ignoring that an attack can be powered up without being stronger?

Please elaborate?

I already have.

Hits improved Time skip makes his attack "power up" since it's better and can actually hit Goku now. Doesn't mean he got stronger.

You are ignoring multiple characters stating he didnt get stronger at all and then their big power difference is pretty obvious in E40.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

In context, Goku's powering up comment refers to the Time-skip since multiple characters stated that Hit's actual strength didn't increase. Hit landed a critical hit on Goku after he improved his Time-skip.

[Miracles]

Why are you ignoring that an attack can be powered up without being stronger?

Please elaborate?

I already have.

Hits improved Time skip makes his attack "power up" since it's better and can actually hit Goku now. Doesn't mean he got stronger.

You are ignoring multiple characters stating he didnt get stronger at all and then their big power difference is pretty obvious in E40.

The "he didn't get stronger" statements were when Hit tried to power up JUST LIKE SAIYANS VIA TRANSFORMING. That screaming and yelling Hit did was trying to mimic them. However, Hit's attack strength did INDEED POWER UP WHEN HE IMPROVED HIMSELF AFTERWARDS.

This was confirmed by Goku when he said HIT's ATTACK got him real good [damaging him enough to bring him to the floor] AFTER powering up...AS EXPECTED.

[ZombieVito]

Please elaborate?

I already have.

Hits improved Time skip makes his attack "power up" since it's better and can actually hit Goku now. Doesn't mean he got stronger.

You are ignoring multiple characters stating he didnt get stronger at all and then their big power difference is pretty obvious in E40.

The "he didn't get stronger" statements were when Hit tried to power up JUST LIKE SAIYANS VIA TRANSFORMING. That screaming and yelling Hit did was trying to mimic them. However, Hit's attack strength did INDEED POWER UP WHEN HE IMPROVED HIMSELF AFTERWARDS.

This was confirmed by Goku when he said HIT's ATTACK got him real good [damaging him enough to bring him to the floor] AFTER powering up...AS EXPECTED.

No.

Goku means Hit's attack got him good because it got improved. It went from 0.1 seconds to 0.2, meaning Goku can't predict it now. It has nothing to do with strength. Even when Hit increased his Time Skip to 0.5 seconds and 1 second, not a mention of strength was made.

And you keep ignoring E40. Hit is shown to be way weaker than a exhausted KKx10 Blue Goku.