Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Sora Saiyan]

1) I know they are equal but that doesn't work with the manga. Vegetto couldn't even hold his fusion for any significant time when facing a much weaker opponent while Gogeta did so when facing someone on his level. Even if their powers are the same, this fact makes Vegetto inferior since he can't hold his fusion for long while Gogeta can.

This is not a problem with the anime since it makes sense for Vegetto to defuse there.

Gogeta started out in base, and when it came to using SSJB against Broly he was always comfortably ahead so didn't need to be going all out. We know Vegetto went in with the intention of killing somebody he believed to be immortal, but he did dick around. Also, there's the very likely option that CSSJB just effects fusion differently since the power isn't leaking out. Anyway, that doesn't matter either. Final KHH should definitely be stronger (pound for pound) than a regular KHH like Gogeta used so that would put more strain on the fusions current level. Fusion's weird. We know that different forms strain it in different ways. Like SSJ Vegetto lasted a full hour (apparently), and SSJ Gogeta lasts half an hour. The likes of Gotenks as a SSJ3 can last 5 minutes, and it cancels their fusion although being much weaker than either of the other two. So fusion doesn't just come undone because of power, but because of strains from different forms placed on the fusions current level. So SSJB Vegetto at a higher level not outputting as much energy would last longer than a weaker version in SSJB constantly using more energy. So there's always the option that he tried to power up to his maximum power, but then defused because it put too much strain on the fusion because the incomplete SSJB was draining him... I guess thats where a CSSJB would last longer.

Anywho, this parts the interesting bit.
The main evidence we have of how long Vegetto lasted comes from this. Gowasu states "If only Goku could last an hour" whilst fighting Zamasu immediately prior to Vegetto coming to be, then almost immediately after they defuse Trunks asks how long is left, and we're told theres about 20 minutes until Zamasu defuses. So yeah, I know the Vegetto fight was extended a little in the manga later but not to the stage where that makes sense. So looks like Toyo just did an extremely piss poor job there of portraying how long Vegetto was actually around. But yeah, he was around for plenty of time, just seems like he dicked around a lot more than we actually got to see. That final bit of info is an interesting one, and until Vegetto came to be Zamasu wasn't around for that long at all according to Gowasu, probably 10 minutes at best, and Vegetto was around for quite a while in the end.

[ZombieVito]

Most fans are clueless when it comes to power scaling.

Base Cabba was said to be equal to the same base Vegeta that the Commeson water copied and then owned SS3 Gotenks.

Cabba would finger flick Cell.

I could say the same about everyone lol.
Not just us fans, I don't think even Toei understands the power scale with how inconsistent everything seems.

Let's see, if we take everything at face value:
Assault Form Frost > Base Goku/Vegeta >= Base Cabba >> SS3 Gotenks >> Piccolo

But somehow Piccolo is able to keep up with Final Form Frost? Did Goku really beat the shit out of him so much that he was weaker than his first form?

Assault form Frost is not stronger than base Goku.

Piccolo was able to keep up thanks to skill and fighting defensively. Frost also could barely stand up the previous episode.

1) I know they are equal but that doesn't work with the manga. Vegetto couldn't even hold his fusion for any significant time when facing a much weaker opponent while Gogeta did so when facing someone on his level. Even if their powers are the same, this fact makes Vegetto inferior since he can't hold his fusion for long while Gogeta can.

This is not a problem with the anime since it makes sense for Vegetto to defuse there.

Gogeta started out in base, and when it came to using SSJB against Broly he was always comfortably ahead so didn't need to be going all out. We know Vegetto went in with the intention of killing somebody he believed to be immortal, but he did dick around. Also, there's the very likely option that CSSJB just effects fusion differently since the power isn't leaking out. Anyway, that doesn't matter either. Final KHH should definitely be stronger (pound for pound) than a regular KHH like Gogeta used so that would put more strain on the fusions current level. Fusion's weird. We know that different forms strain it in different ways. Like SSJ Vegetto lasted a full hour (apparently), and SSJ Gogeta lasts half an hour. The likes of Gotenks as a SSJ3 can last 5 minutes, and it cancels their fusion although being much weaker than either of the other two. So fusion doesn't just come undone because of power, but because of strains from different forms placed on the fusions current level. So SSJB Vegetto at a higher level not outputting as much energy would last longer than a weaker version in SSJB constantly using more energy. So there's always the option that he tried to power up to his maximum power, but then defused because it put too much strain on the fusion because the incomplete SSJB was draining him... I guess thats where a CSSJB would last longer.

Anywho, this parts the interesting bit.
The main evidence we have of how long Vegetto lasted comes from this. Gowasu states "If only Goku could last an hour" whilst fighting Zamasu immediately prior to Vegetto coming to be, then almost immediately after they defuse Trunks asks how long is left, and we're told theres about 20 minutes until Zamasu defuses. So yeah, I know the Vegetto fight was extended a little in the manga later but not to the stage where that makes sense. So looks like Toyo just did an extremely piss poor job there of portraying how long Vegetto was actually around. But yeah, he was around for plenty of time, just seems like he dicked around a lot more than we actually got to see. That final bit of info is an interesting one, and until Vegetto came to be Zamasu wasn't around for that long at all according to Gowasu, probably 10 minutes at best, and Vegetto was around for quite a while in the end.

Not bad. You convinced me.

Toyo did do a piss poor job to convey the time passed.

[Miracles]

The fact is Gowasu and Vegetto were referring to Zamas overall being. That's why Gowasu stated they needed more power to take advantage of his mortal body now. They just didn't have enough power to ever destroy him.

That's not a fact. In the following episode, Gowasu aknowledges that he had an immortal soul all along. Vegito was also telling Zamasu that he was no longer immortal because he had fused with Goku, which is true. His body was no longer immortal, because it was partly mortal. But his soul was still immortal, though that is a topic that Vegito never touched. They didn't have enough power to destroy his mortal body, that's something that Zamasu did to himself. He cast aside his mortal form and embraced his new immortal form to become the multiverse. Finally, if you're going to take every statement at face value, then we have Fused Zamasu mentioning several times how he is still immortal and everlasting.

What is a fact is that if Zamasu was not immortal like you claim, he would have:

A) Stopped talking and laughing right after his brain was split in half;

B) Went straight to Hell after his body was disintegrated.

That's factually wrong. Gogeta and Vegetto were officially stated to be equal. Time limit doesn't make one stronger than the other.
Vegetto stated merged Zamas isn't immortal anymore because of Black being part of Zamas body now. It's the same reason Gowasu gave to Goku and Vegeta on why his body wasn't healing. So yes, they both stated merged Zamas is no longer immortal. Proof of that is Zamas without Black was stated to be "invulnerable/invincible." Hence why he could take a Rose Black's Kamehameha without flinching.

1) I know they are equal ]but that doesn't work with the manga]. Vegetto couldn't even hold his fusion for any significant time when facing a much weaker opponent while Gogeta did so when facing someone on his level. Even if their powers are the same, this fact makes Vegetto inferior since he can't hold his fusion for long while Gogeta can.

This is not a problem with the anime since it makes sense for Vegetto to defuse there.

2) So tell me how Zamasu survived having his brain cut in half. Kaioshins still have the anatomy of humans so he should be very dead if he wasn't immortal. You are also ignoring that Zamasu himself said he was still immortal to both Vegetto and Trunks.

You guys are missing context. Gowasu stated since Zamas merged with a mortal "the balance between body and soul is becoming unstable." This was proven when he couldn't heal and was gradually but surely "falling apart." Therefore he was LOSING his immortality as time went on. Which makes him mortal.

As for Vegetto's time limit Zombie, you are assuming that as well. No time was given for the duration of Vegetto's battle with Zamas. All we know is that in the anime/manga their fusion was less than an hour.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you guys think Cabba and the other Universe 6 Saiyans are supposed to be?

I recently made a poll for my YouTube channel and it seems like the vocal minority subscribes to the "Base Vegeta = Base Cabba" notion while the non-vocal majority seems to believe that Cabba is weaker than Cell Arc characters.

I rewatched Cabba vs Vegeta and I found myself confused with the end result, mainly because I didn't notice it before and didn't read any discussions about it either: Cabba seems to be able to keep up with Base Vegeta, and later on SS Cabba pushes SS Veggie around for a bit, but the fight ends with Vegeta stopping Cabba's punch with nothing but his forehead(finally, some use for that thing).

So, I'm starting to believe Cabba was not even close to Vegeta, not as SS therefore neither in base, and that Vegeta was just teaching a lesson, I mean he didn't even block it, he didn't put up his hands, he just stood there with his massive forehead.

[ZombieVito]

How strong do you guys think Cabba and the other Universe 6 Saiyans are supposed to be?

I recently made a poll for my YouTube channel and it seems like the vocal minority subscribes to the "Base Vegeta = Base Cabba" notion while the non-vocal majority seems to believe that Cabba is weaker than Cell Arc characters.

I rewatched Cabba vs Vegeta and I found myself confused with the end result, mainly because I didn't notice it before and didn't read any discussions about it either: Cabba seems to be able to keep up with Base Vegeta, and later on SS Cabba pushes SS Veggie around for a bit, but the fight ends with Vegeta stopping Cabba's punch with nothing but his forehead(finally, some use for that thing).

So, I'm starting to believe Cabba was not even close to Vegeta, not as SS therefore neither in base, and that Vegeta was just teaching a lesson, I mean he didn't even block it, he didn't put up his hands, he just stood there with his massive forehead.

Cabba had his ass kicked by Vegeta before unlocking Super Saiyan. He shouldn't be on par after that.

[SupremeKai25]

You guys are missing context. Gowasu stated since Zamas merged with a mortal "the balance between body and soul is becoming unstable." This was proven when he couldn't heal and was gradually but surely "falling apart." Therefore he was LOSING his immortality as time went on. Which makes him mortal.

As for Vegetto's time limit Zombie, you are assuming that as well. No time was given for the duration of Vegetto's battle with Zamas. All we know is that in the anime/manga their fusion was less than an hour.

If anything, it's you are missing the context. He was losing the immortality OF HIS BODY. And the fact that he was losing it amounted to him no longer being able to regenerate after being cleaved in half. But very clearly his soul retained immortality, since not only did it remain in the living world after Zamasu shed his mortal form, but even merged with the fabric of the cosmos. And as Zombie already mentioned a few comments ago, if you are mortal, you die 99% of the time if your brain gets split in half (unless you're some nigh-immortal creature like Buu, but we know that Fused Zamasu was "just" a Kai-Saiyan hybrid). This wasn't the case with Zamasu, because even after that happened he kept talking and laughing.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Let me imply that no way would potara fusion of a mortal and an immortal would drastically reduce the effectiveness of a wish granted by Super Shenron.

It's like you are telling me that someone negated a wish from the Super Dragon Balls, which is stupid as these wishes are supreme and pretty much Multiversal in consequences. Zamasu never list his immortality. If he was to be destroyed in atomic scale, he would just lose his vessel. That's the point of being immortal.


If anything we can say that it was his body that took advantage of the situation and exploited the immortality of his soul. Not the other way around.

[SupremeKai25]

Let me imply that no way would potara fusion of a mortal and an immortal would drastically reduce the effectiveness of a wish granted by Super Shenron.

It's like you are telling me that someone negated a wish from the Super Dragon Balls, which is stupid as these wishes are supreme and pretty much Multiversal in consequences. Zamasu never list his immortality. If he was to be destroyed in atomic scale, he would just lose his vessel. That's the point of being immortal.


If anything we can say that it was his body that took advantage of the situation and exploited the immortality of his soul. Not the other way around.

The concept itself is stupid, because as you said Zamasu's body was made immortal by the Super Dragon Balls, the most powerful set of artifacts in the entire cosmos, so Goku Black's body shouldn't have reduced that immortality. Fused Zamasu should have been 100% immortal. This is one of the few things that the manga did much better than the anime. When Goku and Vegeta fused, it's not like Vegito was in some sort of limbo between life and death. He was very much alive, despite one of the fusées being dead. It should have been the same thing with Fused Zamasu. Since Future Zamasu was the dominant personality and he was infused with the power of the Super Dragon Balls, it's him who should have had an influence on Black's mortal body, not the opposite.

Either way, Fused Zamasu had a semi-immortal body and an immortal soul. The mortal part of his body clashed with the immortal part of his body, hindering his regeneration. His soul however remained immortal. At the end of the day, Fused Zamasu IS Zamasu. He has the mind and soul of Zamasu, so much so that he doesn't have two different voices overlapped, but simply an echoed version of Zamasu's voice. It only makes sense that he's something like 90% Future Zamasu and only 10% Goku Black.

Then again, I can't really blame Toei for making this decision. Fused Zamasu was also everlasting, he didn't have a time limit (as it should be), so he needed some kind of weakness or he'd be unstoppable.

[Miracles]

You guys are missing context. Gowasu stated since Zamas merged with a mortal "the balance between body and soul is becoming unstable." This was proven when he couldn't heal and was gradually but surely "falling apart." Therefore he was LOSING his immortality as time went on. Which makes him mortal.

As for Vegetto's time limit Zombie, you are assuming that as well. No time was given for the duration of Vegetto's battle with Zamas. All we know is that in the anime/manga their fusion was less than an hour.

If anything, it's you are missing the context. He was losing the immortality OF HIS BODY. And the fact that he was losing it amounted to him no longer being able to regenerate after being cleaved in half. But very clearly his soul retained immortality, since not only did it remain in the living world after Zamasu shed his mortal form, but even merged with the fabric of the cosmos. And as Zombie already mentioned a few comments ago, if you are mortal, you die 99% of the time if your brain gets split in half (unless you're some nigh-immortal creature like Buu, but we know that Fused Zamasu was "just" a Kai-Saiyan hybrid). This wasn't the case with Zamasu, because even after that happened he kept talking and laughing.

This outright contradicts Gowasu; stating both body and soul was becoming unstable. Zamas shedding off his mortal body and becoming one with the universe does not make him immortal. That was never stated. But you guys are missing the point of the original argument. The writing was horrendous, to have Zamas get injured by Goku and then be able to fight Vegetto. It was inconsistent writing as usual by TOEI.

[SupremeKai25]

This outright contradicts Gowasu; stating both body and soul was becoming unstable. But you guys are missing the point of the original argument. The writing was horrendous, to have Zamas get injured by Goku and then be able to fight Vegetto. It was inconsistent writing as usual by TOEI.

The balance between his body and soul was becoming unstable. Why should his soul become unstable? Black didn't have Goku's soul, so Fused Zamasu's soul wouldn't be affected by any mortal. And indeed Infinite Zamasu has the appearance of normal Zamasu.

It's not that we missed the point of the original argument, it's that we already explained it ages ago.

[ssj3kakarot]

Let me imply that no way would potara fusion of a mortal and an immortal would drastically reduce the effectiveness of a wish granted by Super Shenron.

It's like you are telling me that someone negated a wish from the Super Dragon Balls, which is stupid as these wishes are supreme and pretty much Multiversal in consequences. Zamasu never list his immortality. If he was to be destroyed in atomic scale, he would just lose his vessel. That's the point of being immortal.


If anything we can say that it was his body that took advantage of the situation and exploited the immortality of his soul. Not the other way around.

The concept itself is stupid, because as you said Zamasu's body was made immortal by the Super Dragon Balls, the most powerful set of artifacts in the entire cosmos, so Goku Black's body shouldn't have reduced that immortality. Fused Zamasu should have been 100% immortal. This is one of the few things that the manga did much better than the anime. When Goku and Vegeta fused, it's not like Vegito was in some sort of limbo between life and death. He was very much alive, despite one of the fusées being dead. It should have been the same thing with Fused Zamasu. Since Future Zamasu was the dominant personality and he was infused with the power of the Super Dragon Balls, it's him who should have had an influence on Black's mortal body, not the opposite.

Either way, Fused Zamasu had a semi-immortal body and an immortal soul. The mortal part of his body clashed with the immortal part of his body, hindering his regeneration. His soul however remained immortal. At the end of the day, Fused Zamasu IS Zamasu. He has the mind and soul of Zamasu, so much so that he doesn't have two different voices overlapped, but simply an echoed version of Zamasu's voice. It only makes sense that he's something like 90% Future Zamasu and only 10% Goku Black.

Then again, I can't really blame Toei for making this decision. Fused Zamasu was also everlasting, he didn't have a time limit (as it should be), so he needed some kind of weakness or he'd be unstoppable.

**Insert Zeno Button** hehe

He had no weakness, other than a being who is stronger and can negate the effects of the Ancalagon of Dragon ball, aka the Super Dragon.....Zeno.

[Miracles]

This outright contradicts Gowasu; stating both body and soul was becoming unstable. But you guys are missing the point of the original argument. The writing was horrendous, to have Zamas get injured by Goku and then be able to fight Vegetto. It was inconsistent writing as usual by TOEI.

The balance between his body and soul was becoming unstable. Why should his soul become unstable? Black didn't have Goku's soul, so Fused Zamasu's soul wouldn't be affected by any mortal. And indeed Infinite Zamasu has the appearance of normal Zamasu.

It's not that we missed the point of the original argument, it's that we already explained it ages ago.

Your explanations don't line up with the story. Claiming light of justice powered Zamas up in order to fight Vegetto. When it was only stated to try and heal him. Still it makes no sense for a fusion to get overpowered by a fatigue Goku like that, ever. Remember, the Zamas who had Goku Black's body, his soul wasn't immortal. Only the other Zamas wished for immortality.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you guys think Cabba and the other Universe 6 Saiyans are supposed to be?

I recently made a poll for my YouTube channel and it seems like the vocal minority subscribes to the "Base Vegeta = Base Cabba" notion while the non-vocal majority seems to believe that Cabba is weaker than Cell Arc characters.

I rewatched Cabba vs Vegeta and I found myself confused with the end result, mainly because I didn't notice it before and didn't read any discussions about it either: Cabba seems to be able to keep up with Base Vegeta, and later on SS Cabba pushes SS Veggie around for a bit, but the fight ends with Vegeta stopping Cabba's punch with nothing but his forehead(finally, some use for that thing).

So, I'm starting to believe Cabba was not even close to Vegeta, not as SS therefore neither in base, and that Vegeta was just teaching a lesson, I mean he didn't even block it, he didn't put up his hands, he just stood there with his massive forehead.

Cabba had his ass kicked by Vegeta before unlocking Super Saiyan. He shouldn't be on par after that.

Ok, so we can definitely put to rest the theory of Cabba soloing Z, based on those events. In your list you had them on par, I know it's outdated, how do you rank Champa Arc Cabba now?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This outright contradicts Gowasu; stating both body and soul was becoming unstable. But you guys are missing the point of the original argument. The writing was horrendous, to have Zamas get injured by Goku and then be able to fight Vegetto. It was inconsistent writing as usual by TOEI.

The balance between his body and soul was becoming unstable. Why should his soul become unstable? Black didn't have Goku's soul, so Fused Zamasu's soul wouldn't be affected by any mortal. And indeed Infinite Zamasu has the appearance of normal Zamasu.

It's not that we missed the point of the original argument, it's that we already explained it ages ago.

Your explanations don't line up with the story. Claiming light of justice powered Zamas up in order to fight Vegetto. When it was only stated to try and heal him. Still it makes no sense for a fusion to get overpowered by a fatigue Goku like that, ever. Remember, the Zamas who had Goku Black's body, his soul wasn't immortal. Only the other Zamas wished for immortality.

First instance, wrong. Merged Zamasu states that a weak god can't accomplish anything or something to that affect after being bodied by SSB-KK Goku. Then he calls upon the Light of Justice to strike him, and his other arm grows grotesquely huge, lining up with its increased power that even Vegito had to be wary of.

Second instance, that's just your personal grievance with the scene. As shown in it, Goku has to put quite literally almost everything he has into the attack just to be able to punch through Merged Zamasu's attack, a very clearly limit-breaking attack since it makes his arms completely useless and he's breathing heavily. We see that Merged Zamasu's power can be matched by 2 SSB-level fighters with Future Trunks and Vegeta earlier, so Goku going all-out and putting in everything he's got can likely match that kind of power given the strain it put on him. Merged Zamasu didn't start out as strong as Vegito in the anime and ended up lining up with the manga and Toriyama's outline pretty well.

With regards to the immortality, you might have a point, but the whole thing is weird to begin with. Could be that souls don't quite work the same way as the body when it comes to immortality and Fusion with non-immortals.

[Miracles]

The balance between his body and soul was becoming unstable. Why should his soul become unstable? Black didn't have Goku's soul, so Fused Zamasu's soul wouldn't be affected by any mortal. And indeed Infinite Zamasu has the appearance of normal Zamasu.

It's not that we missed the point of the original argument, it's that we already explained it ages ago.

Your explanations don't line up with the story. Claiming light of justice powered Zamas up in order to fight Vegetto. When it was only stated to try and heal him. Still it makes no sense for a fusion to get overpowered by a fatigue Goku like that, ever. Remember, the Zamas who had Goku Black's body, his soul wasn't immortal. Only the other Zamas wished for immortality.

First instance, wrong. Merged Zamasu states that a weak god can't accomplish anything or something to that affect after being bodied by SSB-KK Goku. Then he calls upon the Light of Justice to strike him, and his other arm grows grotesquely huge, lining up with its increased power that even Vegito had to be wary of.

Second instance, that's just your personal grievance with the scene. As shown in it, Goku has to put quite literally almost everything he has into the attack just to be able to punch through Merged Zamasu's attack, a very clearly limit-breaking attack since it makes his arms completely useless and he's breathing heavily. We see that Merged Zamasu's power can be matched by 2 SSB-level fighters with Future Trunks and Vegeta earlier, so Goku going all-out and putting in everything he's got can likely match that kind of power given the strain it put on him. Merged Zamasu didn't start out as strong as Vegito in the anime and ended up lining up with the manga and Toriyama's outline pretty well.

With regards to the immortality, you might have a point, but the whole thing is weird to begin with. Could be that souls don't quite work the same way as the body when it comes to immortality and Fusion with non-immortals.

Goku used his full power against merged Zamas and he was overcome and injured. There is nothing more to it in the story. Then Zamas tries to heal himself with light of justice. He fails, more proof that light of justice only regenerates Zamas, trying to use it a second time against Vegetto. Then Shin stated he is not healing but falling apart. We have two confirmations that Zamas failed to heal himself with light of justice. Therefore, no where was it stated that tech powers him up. Even if it did, still comes down to bad writing by TOEI. Who failed to mention that for consistency sake.

[SupremeKai25]

This outright contradicts Gowasu; stating both body and soul was becoming unstable. But you guys are missing the point of the original argument. The writing was horrendous, to have Zamas get injured by Goku and then be able to fight Vegetto. It was inconsistent writing as usual by TOEI.

The balance between his body and soul was becoming unstable. Why should his soul become unstable? Black didn't have Goku's soul, so Fused Zamasu's soul wouldn't be affected by any mortal. And indeed Infinite Zamasu has the appearance of normal Zamasu.

It's not that we missed the point of the original argument, it's that we already explained it ages ago.

Your explanations don't line up with the story. Claiming light of justice powered Zamas up in order to fight Vegetto. When it was only stated to try and heal him. Still it makes no sense for a fusion to get overpowered by a fatigue Goku like that, ever. Remember, the Zamas who had Goku Black's body, his soul wasn't immortal. Only the other Zamas wished for immortality.

What? It wasn't stated anywhere that it was trying to heal him. And again, you don't need an explanation because the mechanic of such a strategy was already explained two episodes earlier.

Yes, only one Zamasu had his soul immortal, and the soul of that Zamasu "overwrote" the soul of the other Zamasu, because one Zamasu was empowered by the Super Dragon Balls, while the other wasn't. Notice how there's so little of Goku Black in that fusion.

Then Zamas tries to heal himself with light of justice.

Again, No, that isn't implied anywhere. Zamasu literally says "STRIKE AT ME NOW", and that attack is literally a lightning, my dude. Lightnings don't heal people. If you want to get your wounds fixed, you don't want to get electrocuted by a lightning.

We have two confirmations that Zamas failed to heal himself with light of justice.

No. No one mentions the Light of Justice but Zamasu. Shin says he's falling apart because he's not regenerating his other side, which Zamasu purposefully damaged to become stronger, just like Goku Black did by stabbing his hand two episodes earlier. They don't need to restate anything if you've paid attention to the storyline, and by that I mean "if you watched what happens in two episodes earlier".

And again, if you are going to take everything at face value, then Zamasu beats them because we... what? 7 statements of Fused Zamasu being an "invincible, everlasting God"?

Therefore, no where was it stated that tech powers him up.

Except they didn't. Heck, it's a pretty huge point conveyed throughout the arc that Black grows much stronger through pain, that's literally what he does in his first confrontation ever (and Zamasu was, you guessed it, in pain after using the lightning on himself). I don't see why Toei owes you an explanation just because you weren't paying attention.

As for Goku overpowering him, it's already explained how that happen. You don't have to like it, but there is an explanation for it.

[ZombieVito]

I rewatched Cabba vs Vegeta and I found myself confused with the end result, mainly because I didn't notice it before and didn't read any discussions about it either: Cabba seems to be able to keep up with Base Vegeta, and later on SS Cabba pushes SS Veggie around for a bit, but the fight ends with Vegeta stopping Cabba's punch with nothing but his forehead(finally, some use for that thing).

So, I'm starting to believe Cabba was not even close to Vegeta, not as SS therefore neither in base, and that Vegeta was just teaching a lesson, I mean he didn't even block it, he didn't put up his hands, he just stood there with his massive forehead.

Cabba had his ass kicked by Vegeta before unlocking Super Saiyan. He shouldn't be on par after that.

Ok, so we can definitely put to rest the theory of Cabba soloing Z, based on those events. In your list you had them on par, I know it's outdated, how do you rank Champa Arc Cabba now?

But Cabba can solo Z with Super Saiyan. Well, maybe not Vegetto.

I haven't updated my list because I'm waiting to see if the anime does the Broly arc but I have Cabba pretty much the same as the list on my signature.

[Hugo Boss]

Cabba can solo Z with Super Saiyan.

What makes you think that he can beat SS2+ level people?

[Miracles]

The balance between his body and soul was becoming unstable. Why should his soul become unstable? Black didn't have Goku's soul, so Fused Zamasu's soul wouldn't be affected by any mortal. And indeed Infinite Zamasu has the appearance of normal Zamasu.

It's not that we missed the point of the original argument, it's that we already explained it ages ago.

Your explanations don't line up with the story. Claiming light of justice powered Zamas up in order to fight Vegetto. When it was only stated to try and heal him. Still it makes no sense for a fusion to get overpowered by a fatigue Goku like that, ever. Remember, the Zamas who had Goku Black's body, his soul wasn't immortal. Only the other Zamas wished for immortality.

What? It wasn't stated anywhere that it was trying to heal him. And again, you don't need an explanation because the mechanic of such a strategy was already explained two episodes earlier.

Yes, only one Zamasu had his soul immortal, and the soul of that Zamasu "overwrote" the soul of the other Zamasu, because one Zamasu was empowered by the Super Dragon Balls, while the other wasn't. Notice how there's so little of Goku Black in that fusion.

Then Zamas tries to heal himself with light of justice.

Again, No, that isn't implied anywhere. Zamasu literally says "STRIKE AT ME NOW", and that attack is literally a lightning, my dude. Lightnings don't heal people. If you want to get your wounds fixed, you don't want to get electrocuted by a lightning.

We have two confirmations that Zamas failed to heal himself with light of justice.

No. No one mentions the Light of Justice but Zamasu. Shin says he's falling apart because he's not regenerating his other side, which Zamasu purposefully damaged to become stronger, just like Goku Black did by stabbing his hand two episodes earlier. They don't need to restate anything if you've paid attention to the storyline, and by that I mean "if you watched what happens in two episodes earlier".

And again, if you are going to take everything at face value, then Zamasu beats them because we... what? 7 statements of Fused Zamasu being an "invincible, everlasting God"?

Therefore, no where was it stated that tech powers him up.

Except they didn't. Heck, it's a pretty huge point conveyed throughout the arc that Black grows much stronger through pain, that's literally what he does in his first confrontation ever (and Zamasu was, you guessed it, in pain after using the lightning on himself). I don't see why Toei owes you an explanation just because you weren't paying attention.

As for Goku overpowering him, it's already explained how that happen. You don't have to like it, but there is an explanation for it.

The moment Zamas uses light of justice, the narration states it didn't heal him TWICE [Vegeta/Gowasu and Shin] but is not regenerating. You keep stating the opposite that it powered him up with no text to prove your point. You may be right, however, TOEI's bad writing didn't state it. Therefore it is inconsistent and doesn't substantiate you. BTW, nothing mentioned about immortal Zamasu "overwriting" mortal Zamas soul when fused either.

[p-hyvo]

Cabba can solo Z with Super Saiyan.

What makes you think that he can beat SS2+ level people?

He's from super. Base Goku dbs anime> z verse cause he absorbed God in his base