Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

I just would like to know how you interpret this piece of dialogue:

Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights” ... “You will make for my finest meal yet”.

Hmm

All in all Vegeta is still GoD level. Anyone from that realm of power is worth more than any planet Moro has ever eaten.

But I question whether he can refer to his energy's "quality". As in, a Vegeta with the spirit control has a "better" energy to give than a worn out Omen Goku (even if power Stressed seemed to deal way more damage than Vegeta could on Prime Moro).

Again, he should be comparable to regular Omen Goku, but it may have to do with his spirit training.

What is regular Omen Goku?

This is standard, Ultra Instinct Omen or Sign, Goku


Slick form, clear Aura.

This is an apparent power Stressed version of Omen which boosts all stats (speed and power) but is not how you achieve mastery of the form (completed ultra instinct, the silver hair).



Flame-like additions to the Aura, more muscular look

[HeroR]

All in all Vegeta is still GoD level. Anyone from that realm of power is worth more than any planet Moro has ever eaten.

But I question whether he can refer to his energy's "quality". As in, a Vegeta with the spirit control has a "better" energy to give than a worn out Omen Goku (even if power Stressed seemed to deal way more damage than Vegeta could on Prime Moro).

Again, he should be comparable to regular Omen Goku, but it may have to do with his spirit training.

What is regular Omen Goku?

This is standard, Ultra Instinct Omen or Sign, Goku


Slick form, clear Aura.

This is an apparent power Stressed version of Omen which boosts all stats (speed and power) but is not how you achieve mastery of the form (completed ultra instinct, the silver hair).



Flame-like additions to the Aura, more muscular look

That's an ugly picture of Omen and I see why I blanked that out. Seeing Omen go from making Goku quiet, calm to the point of looking indifferent at times, and detached to Super Saiyan aura and Goku making a classic rage face is....disheartening. But this is manga Omen which appeared with a face, so can't say I'm shocked this happened.

Also, isn't UI support to make Goku skinner in the manga? He looks like his normal bulk here even in normal Omen.

[Grand Marshal 1]

What is regular Omen Goku?

This is standard, Ultra Instinct Omen or Sign, Goku


Slick form, clear Aura.

This is an apparent power Stressed version of Omen which boosts all stats (speed and power) but is not how you achieve mastery of the form (completed ultra instinct, the silver hair).



Flame-like additions to the Aura, more muscular look

That's an ugly picture of Omen and I see why I blanked that out. Seeing Omen go from making Goku quiet, calm to the point of looking indifferent at times, and detached to Super Saiyan aura and Goku making a classic rage face is....disheartening. But this is manga Omen which appeared with a face, so can't say I'm shocked this happened.

Also, isn't UI support to make Goku skinner in the manga? He looks like his normal bulk here even in normal Omen.

I think? Kinda? First appearance Omen vs Jiren did resemble SSG in stature. But it kinda changed. Started to look more like the anime ig. Base-form looking (although the anime did show powered up Omen Goku, it never truly left that idea, unlike MUI which buffed him quite a bit). Then again, MUI in the Manga is also not supposed to look super buff.

So I belive this variant was introduced just to show us Prime Moro's stats? As in, Goku has Omen tier abilities, but MUI tier of strength (which relates to Merus and Whis talking about how he is doing it wrong).

Ultimately, I doubt that Vegeta with his Spirit Mastery in Perfected Blue Evolution can match that weird looking Omen.

I do agree on this being disheartening though. The form is being misused. And although that's the case even in-universe it makes you question the whole principle behind the form even being a thing, if it doesn't stand up to its own requirements.

The Manga has been a little vague with forms imo. Perfected Blue needed a better explanation, setting the foundation for future forms.

[HeroR]

This is standard, Ultra Instinct Omen or Sign, Goku


Slick form, clear Aura.

This is an apparent power Stressed version of Omen which boosts all stats (speed and power) but is not how you achieve mastery of the form (completed ultra instinct, the silver hair).



Flame-like additions to the Aura, more muscular look

That's an ugly picture of Omen and I see why I blanked that out. Seeing Omen go from making Goku quiet, calm to the point of looking indifferent at times, and detached to Super Saiyan aura and Goku making a classic rage face is....disheartening. But this is manga Omen which appeared with a face, so can't say I'm shocked this happened.

Also, isn't UI support to make Goku skinner in the manga? He looks like his normal bulk here even in normal Omen.

I think? Kinda? First appearance Omen vs Jiren did resemble SSG in stature. But it kinda changed. Started to look more like the anime ig. Base-form looking (although the anime did show powered up Omen Goku, it never truly left that idea, unlike MUI which buffed him quite a bit). Then again, MUI in the Manga is also not supposed to look super buff.

So I belive this variant was introduced just to show us Prime Moro's stats? As in, Goku has Omen tier abilities, but MUI tier of strength (which relates to Merus and Whis talking about how he is doing it wrong).

Ultimately, I doubt that Vegeta with his Spirit Mastery in Perfected Blue Evolution can match that weird looking Omen.

I do agree on this being disheartening though. The form is being misused. And although that's the case even in-universe it makes you question the whole principle behind the form even being a thing, if it doesn't stand up to its own requirements.

The Manga has been a little vague with forms imo. Perfected Blue needed a better explanation, setting the foundation for future forms.

If you mean 116, Omen Goku didn't have a flaw aura and only gave one roar. He didn't bulk, didn't get an angry face, nor was it shown to be stressful. It was still calming. The closets UI in the anime came to that panel is 130's UI Goku rage boost. And he still didn't look like that. Also, complete UI in the anime didn't buff Goku. That is just how Goku looks without his shirt. Just look at when he deformed at the end of 130, he kept the same bulk.

That honestly makes little sense, but Omen's role in the manga is extremely vague. In the anime, Omen is incomplete UI because Goku is thinking before he attacks, which makes his attacks weak for his level of power, and he got the silver-haired form after he calmed down and began to go with the flow of battle instead of worrying about the stakes. At the same time, his defense is top notch in that form to the point of being closed to untouchable even to Jiren. I don't know what Omen is supposed to be in the manga outside of Goku calling it the initial stage. Like, what is the different between the two forms outside of Omen being an energy drain (which UI was in the manga too when Jiren punched him out of it)?

[Dragon Wukong]

I think Vegeta's current strength isn't equivalent to UI Sign Goku's, as he ultimately did more poorly against Moro at full strength than Goku did. Though I DO think this technique could allow Vegeta to beat opponents Goku may have trouble with, such as Jiren, or even Fused Zamasu (who, though weaker in the manga, probably can't be outright defeated by Ultra Instinct Goku in a presumed 1v1.)

[Thani]

I think Vegeta's current strength isn't equivalent to UI Sign Goku's, as he ultimately did more poorly against Moro at full strength than Goku did. Though I DO think this technique could allow Vegeta to beat opponents Goku may have trouble with, such as Jiren, or even Fused Zamasu (who, though weaker in the manga, probably can't be outright defeated by Ultra Instinct Goku in a presumed 1v1.)

It's not like Vegeta can make any of his opponents weaker. He can defuse his enemies, or rob them of power achieved through absorption. It's basically removing the energy that is not originally theirs, so it shouldn't work on the likes of Jiren, Beerus, Broly, etc. It can however, potentially defuse Fused Zamasu and Kefla, for example.

Also, Fused Zamasu in the manga was basically on par with Perfected Blue Goku at the time. So Ultra Instinct should definitely go to town on him. But given his immortality, I think you're right that eventually he could lose.

[Dragon Wukong]

I think Vegeta's current strength isn't equivalent to UI Sign Goku's, as he ultimately did more poorly against Moro at full strength than Goku did. Though I DO think this technique could allow Vegeta to beat opponents Goku may have trouble with, such as Jiren, or even Fused Zamasu (who, though weaker in the manga, probably can't be outright defeated by Ultra Instinct Goku in a presumed 1v1.)

It's not like Vegeta can make any of his opponents weaker. He can defuse his enemies, or rob them of power achieved through absorption. It's basically removing the energy that is not originally theirs, so it shouldn't work on the likes of Jiren, Beerus, Broly, etc. It can however, potentially defuse Fused Zamasu and Kefla, for example.

Also, Fused Zamasu in the manga was basically on par with Perfected Blue Goku at the time. So Ultra Instinct should definitely go to town on him. But given his immortality, I think you're right that eventually he could lose.

You're actually wrong on that. Earlier chapters in the arc show Vegeta's training, and the technique has the ability to drain the energy from singular entities as well. We see Pybara drain Vegeta's energy, as well as Vegeta draining the energy of Hatska. It just seems to also have the practical application of absolutely undoing any kind of ki absorption/fusion as well. It's very likely the technique has uses against any kind of opponent vulnerable to having one's energy drained in some way.

[FiReFTW]

I think Vegeta's current strength isn't equivalent to UI Sign Goku's, as he ultimately did more poorly against Moro at full strength than Goku did. Though I DO think this technique could allow Vegeta to beat opponents Goku may have trouble with, such as Jiren, or even Fused Zamasu (who, though weaker in the manga, probably can't be outright defeated by Ultra Instinct Goku in a presumed 1v1.)

It's not like Vegeta can make any of his opponents weaker. He can defuse his enemies, or rob them of power achieved through absorption. It's basically removing the energy that is not originally theirs, so it shouldn't work on the likes of Jiren, Beerus, Broly, etc. It can however, potentially defuse Fused Zamasu and Kefla, for example.

Also, Fused Zamasu in the manga was basically on par with Perfected Blue Goku at the time. So Ultra Instinct should definitely go to town on him. But given his immortality, I think you're right that eventually he could lose.

You're actually wrong on that. Earlier chapters in the arc show Vegeta's training, and the technique has the ability to drain the energy from singular entities as well. We see Pybara drain Vegeta's energy, as well as Vegeta draining the energy of Hatska. It just seems to also have the practical application of absolutely undoing any kind of ki absorption/fusion as well. It's very likely the technique has uses against any kind of opponent vulnerable to having one's energy drained in some way.

Pybara probably used some other techniques to add some outer energy to those entities in order for this technique to be applied and learned, I'm almost 100% sure this technique won't be useful at all and probably never seen again possibly, how many techniques did we already see that were never used again and they were far more practical than this very limited one.

[Dragon Wukong]

Pybara probably used some other techniques to add some outer energy to those entities in order for this technique to be applied and learned, I'm almost 100% sure this technique won't be useful at all and probably never seen again possibly, how many techniques did we already see that were never used again and they were far more practical than this very limited one.

The only techniques I can think of that haven't been used again are the Hakai, a one-off that Goku explicitly said he considers an awful technique, and SSG/SSB switching, which had no reason to be used again after SSB was completed. This technique was hinted at and built-up to for over a year, and you're telling me it's only gonna be useful in this fight? Heck, even Roshi's faux ultra instinct got mileage in this arc after the Tournament of Power.

If you believe this is the only fight that technique will be useful or relevant, especially given Dragon Ball's past of loving fusion/absorption type stuff, I think you're being very, sorely mistaken. And that's assuming you're even right (on the very narrow-minded idea) that the technique can't work on singular entities.

[Koitsukai]

After SSBE Vegeta devolved Moro to his fragile old self, the one they fought on Namek... shouldn't have Vegeta's evolved power now obliterate that Moro on the spot? I mean he took away any foreign power he had, and back on Namek his SSG was defeating Moro. He is now two forms ahead of that power, not mentioning training and becoming massively stronger, Omen level even.

Post-trained SSBE shouldn't be strong enough to at least leave Moro damaged enough to the point of not being able to move as freely? Cell put Vegeta to sleep with two blows.

[Dragon Wukong]

After SSBE Vegeta devolved Moro to his fragile old self, the one they fought on Namek... shouldn't have Vegeta's evolved power now obliterate that Moro on the spot? I mean he took away any foreign power he had, and back on Namek his SSG was defeating Moro. He is now two forms ahead of that power, not mentioning training and becoming massively stronger, Omen level even.

Post-trained SSBE shouldn't be strong enough to at least leave Moro damaged enough to the point of not being able to move as freely? Cell put Vegeta to sleep with two blows.

Moro was always stronger than a Super Saiyan God. Moreover, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue have always been implied in the manga to not be that particularly distant in strength. See: Zamasu's comments on the U6 tournament, as well as Toppo vs Goku and the GoDs comments on that. Even in the U6 tournament, keep in mind SSG was far stronger than SSB at a tenth of its maximum strength. And while Vegeta's evolved SSB goes past that, I don't think that power boost is particularly large either, though it probably closes the final gap between him and Beerus.

Vegeta could finish Moro off at any point once he was old, but it's not like Moro wasn't strong enough that he couldn't take casual strikes from Vegeta either.

[Koitsukai]

After SSBE Vegeta devolved Moro to his fragile old self, the one they fought on Namek... shouldn't have Vegeta's evolved power now obliterate that Moro on the spot? I mean he took away any foreign power he had, and back on Namek his SSG was defeating Moro. He is now two forms ahead of that power, not mentioning training and becoming massively stronger, Omen level even.

Post-trained SSBE shouldn't be strong enough to at least leave Moro damaged enough to the point of not being able to move as freely? Cell put Vegeta to sleep with two blows.

Moro was always stronger than a Super Saiyan God. Moreover, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue have always been implied in the manga to not be that particularly distant in strength. See: Zamasu's comments on the U6 tournament, as well as Toppo vs Goku and the GoDs comments on that. Even in the U6 tournament, keep in mind SSG was far stronger than SSB at a tenth of its maximum strength. And while Vegeta's evolved SSB goes past that, I don't think that power boost is particularly large either, though it probably closes the final gap between him and Beerus.

Vegeta could finish Moro off at any point once he was old, but it's not like Moro wasn't strong enough that he couldn't take casual strikes from Vegeta either.

I don't think old Moro was that strong. He was imprisoned by Daikaioshin who is Kid Buu tier at best, and on Namek SSG had the edge on him until the magic kicked in and not even with his magic he could keep up with SSB on Namek, before he started feasting. Later on, the saiyans said SSB should be enough. Buu-kaioshin fights old Moro evenly too, so without his magic he was not that strong.
This power rivals 4th Omen. And this Moro even if he were SSB level, still should be badly hurt.

SSBE in the ToP was said by Jiren to be the best he ever faced aside of Omen. So it should be a remarkable boost over Perfect Blue, including Blue Kaioken. Post Yadrat Vegeta on that form should be lethal against a SSG-SSB level character who had two big fights

[Dragon Wukong]

I don't think old Moro was that strong. He was imprisoned by Daikaioshin who is Kid Buu tier at best, and on Namek SSG had the edge on him until the magic kicked in and not even with his magic he could keep up with SSB on Namek, before he started feasting. Later on, the saiyans said SSB should be enough. Buu-kaioshin fights old Moro evenly too, so without his magic he was not that strong.
This power rivals 4th Omen. And this Moro even if he were SSB level, still should be badly hurt.

SSBE in the ToP was said by Jiren to be the best he ever faced aside of Omen. So it should be a remarkable boost over Perfect Blue, including Blue Kaioken. Post Yadrat Vegeta on that form should be lethal against a SSG-SSB level character who had two big fights

Grand Supreme Kai was stronger than Kid Buu with most of his power gone after sealing Moro. If you pay attention carefully, Buu with the Grand Supreme Kai's powers and memory ended up doing better against Moro than Super Saiyan God. It's also made very clear that Vegeta's new strength isn't on par with Goku's in Ultra Instinct. Unlike Goku, Vegeta is unable to do any damage to Moro until he's already lost some of his power.

As for Jiren's statement. Like I said, I think Vegeta's evolved Blue just closes the gap between him and Beerus, who's stronger than Belmod, the second strongest fighter in Jiren's universe. I don't think Jiren's statement contradicts what I said.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think old Moro was that strong. He was imprisoned by Daikaioshin who is Kid Buu tier at best, and on Namek SSG had the edge on him until the magic kicked in and not even with his magic he could keep up with SSB on Namek, before he started feasting. Later on, the saiyans said SSB should be enough. Buu-kaioshin fights old Moro evenly too, so without his magic he was not that strong.
This power rivals 4th Omen. And this Moro even if he were SSB level, still should be badly hurt.

SSBE in the ToP was said by Jiren to be the best he ever faced aside of Omen. So it should be a remarkable boost over Perfect Blue, including Blue Kaioken. Post Yadrat Vegeta on that form should be lethal against a SSG-SSB level character who had two big fights

Grand Supreme Kai was stronger than Kid Buu with most of his power gone after sealing Moro. If you pay attention carefully, Buu with the Grand Supreme Kai's powers and memory ended up doing better against Moro than Super Saiyan God. It's also made very clear that Vegeta's new strength isn't on par with Goku's in Ultra Instinct. Unlike Goku, Vegeta is unable to do any damage to Moro until he's already lost some of his power.

As for Jiren's statement. Like I said, I think Vegeta's evolved Blue just closes the gap between him and Beerus, who's stronger than Belmod, the second strongest fighter in Jiren's universe. I don't think Jiren's statement contradicts what I said.

Yeah, I re-read those chapters and Moro is stronger than I remembered, although not that much. Still, below blue level, I just don't think he could take those kind of punches and not be utterly battered, but also re-reading the last chapter, Vegeta doesn't seem to be going for the KO like Cell against him or like Beerus vs his Perfect Blue, and big-bearded Moro doesn't show up until the very end, so I guess it isn't that far fetched. The weakass Moro is a result of the beating, and not actually taking the beating.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I am taking into account what is straight up said

So am I, where things couldn't be any more clear cut. If Vegeta is unable to harm Moro and can not contend with him and Goku can harm Moro and contend with him then it is Goku that is the stronger.

You're referring to things that can be interpreted in different ways whereas what I mention is very clear.

Oh right, Goku saying he would need to train to overcome Vegeta and Moro praising Vegeta as the best meal does not make it explicit that Goku is below his rival and can be interpreted in other ways, but the opposite is clear...

That's an ugly picture of Omen and I see why I blanked that out. Seeing Omen go from making Goku quiet, calm to the point of looking indifferent at times, and detached to Super Saiyan aura and Goku making a classic rage face is....disheartening. But this is manga Omen which appeared with a face, so can't say I'm shocked this happened.

Also, isn't UI support to make Goku skinner in the manga? He looks like his normal bulk here even in normal Omen.

This Power stressed Omen is just the result of a desperate Goku with almost no stamina, which forced him to rely on raw power to try to hit Moro, which didn't work because Merus says that this is not the correct way to use the UI . So it's not a variation of Omen, it's literally the wrong way to use that form.

Btw, in the anime we had Completed UI Goku literally getting rage boosts, so this portrayal of the UI is a problem that exists in both mediums (although it is made clear in the manga that Goku cannot extract the most of UI strength using this)

[Hugo Boss]

I just would like to know how you interpret this piece of dialogue:

Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights” ... “You will make for my finest meal yet”.

Hmm

All in all Vegeta is still GoD level. Anyone from that realm of power is worth more than any planet Moro has ever eaten.

But I question whether he can refer to his energy's "quality". As in, a Vegeta with the spirit control has a "better" energy to give than a worn out Omen Goku (even if power Stressed seemed to deal way more damage than Vegeta could on Prime Moro).

Again, he should be comparable to regular Omen Goku, but it may have to do with his spirit training.

Why do you think he is referring to the quality of Vegeta’s energy? Does it really matter?

[Grand Marshal 1]

I just would like to know how you interpret this piece of dialogue:

Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights” ... “You will make for my finest meal yet”.

Hmm

All in all Vegeta is still GoD level. Anyone from that realm of power is worth more than any planet Moro has ever eaten.

But I question whether he can refer to his energy's "quality". As in, a Vegeta with the spirit control has a "better" energy to give than a worn out Omen Goku (even if power Stressed seemed to deal way more damage than Vegeta could on Prime Moro).

Again, he should be comparable to regular Omen Goku, but it may have to do with his spirit training.

Why do you think he is referring to the quality of Vegeta’s energy? Does it really matter?

Why not? I mean, depends on what you believe. Playing devil's advocate here, trying to explain a reason as to why Moro would find Vegeta as a better meal than Goku, when in actuality, he is not stronger, which translates to more or less, superior energy reserves.

[Hugo Boss]

All in all Vegeta is still GoD level. Anyone from that realm of power is worth more than any planet Moro has ever eaten.

But I question whether he can refer to his energy's "quality". As in, a Vegeta with the spirit control has a "better" energy to give than a worn out Omen Goku (even if power Stressed seemed to deal way more damage than Vegeta could on Prime Moro).

Again, he should be comparable to regular Omen Goku, but it may have to do with his spirit training.

Why do you think he is referring to the quality of Vegeta’s energy? Does it really matter?

Why not? I mean, depends on what you believe. Playing devil's advocate here, trying to explain a reason as to why Moro would find Vegeta as a better meal than Goku, when in actuality, he is not stronger, which translates to more or less, superior energy reserves.

Huh? Probably because Vegeta has more power than Goku and Goku has more speed than Vegeta?

[Xeno Goku Black]

Oh right, Goku saying he would need to train to overcome Vegeta

No, that isn't what he said. He just said that he would surpass him again. Vegeta surpassed Goku by learning this technique and achieving what Goku could not.

That isn't the same as having to physically train to raise his power higher than Vegeta's.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Oh right, Goku saying he would need to train to overcome Vegeta

No, that isn't what he said. He just said that he would surpass him again. Vegeta surpassed Goku by learning this technique and achieving what Goku could not.

That isn't the same as having to physically train to raise his power higher than Vegeta's.

Yes, he says that because Jaco literally translates Goku's speech that way. I don't understand the amount of mental gymnastics to try to deny something like that. We are talking about DB, there are not tons of meanings when it comes to overcoming another character.

Vegeta learning something that Goku didn't get does not make Goku say that he wants to overcome Vegeta because there is nothing to overcome if that was the meaning of that speech. The same goes for the fact that Vegeta performs better than his rival, this does not require Goku to train to overcome Vegeta if he was already stronger. Goku literally says that he didn't expect Vegeta to learn this technique and get so strong