Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

In my opinion, there's no way Vegeta's actually physically stronger than Goku. Narratively speaking, it seems very unlikely that Vegeta would actually win if he fought Goku's brand new shiny Ultra Instinct form.

Basically this.



But the dialogue literally undermines Vegeta.

Bottom line: This is the audience reaction to Vegeta vs Moro (when Moro had his full power.)



Compare to the audience reaction to Goku vs Moro (again, after Moro started using his full power.)



So, either Goku's statement is contradicting these moments, or he isn't speaking literally in terms of power. Which given the nature of Vegeta's ability, is most likely the case.

Again, keep in mind Vegeta doesn't begin to do well against Moro at all until he's lost his strength. And the opposite is true for Moro against Goku.

This is pretty much the best argument to be made.
Vegeta has the stronger Blue form (which puts him on the same level as UI Goku and Moro), and with his spirit fission technique, he ends up doing much better against Moro than Goku did. That seems to be the simplest and most obvious answer.

though I could see something like this working:
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta << UI Goku (Initial) < SSBE Vegeta < Moro < UI Goku (Power Stressed) << MUI Goku

A scale I can agree on

If I were to add something to it:

SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta << UI Goku (Initial) < SSBE Vegeta < Moro ≈ UI Goku (Power Stressed) < 7-Moro-3 (possibly) << MUI Goku

So since Goku's power plays around Vegeta's they are pretty much equal. These debates always end up getting researched so much and it's pointless with the info we got.
Let's check on the number of pages for the chapter since they may play a role to whether Vegeta or Goku is stronger

Their is nothing to say MUI is > 73Moro based on his performance with Vegeta

[Grand Marshal 1]

In my opinion, there's no way Vegeta's actually physically stronger than Goku. Narratively speaking, it seems very unlikely that Vegeta would actually win if he fought Goku's brand new shiny Ultra Instinct form.



This is pretty much the best argument to be made.
Vegeta has the stronger Blue form (which puts him on the same level as UI Goku and Moro), and with his spirit fission technique, he ends up doing much better against Moro than Goku did. That seems to be the simplest and most obvious answer.

though I could see something like this working:
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta << UI Goku (Initial) < SSBE Vegeta < Moro < UI Goku (Power Stressed) << MUI Goku

A scale I can agree on

If I were to add something to it:

SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta << UI Goku (Initial) < SSBE Vegeta < Moro ≈ UI Goku (Power Stressed) < 7-Moro-3 (possibly) << MUI Goku

So since Goku's power plays around Vegeta's they are pretty much equal. These debates always end up getting researched so much and it's pointless with the info we got.
Let's check on the number of pages for the chapter since they may play a role to whether Vegeta or Goku is stronger

Their is nothing to say MUI is > 73Moro based on his performance with Vegeta

Nor are we led to believe that MUI Goku appearing wouldn't be enough for Moro. So yeah...

Not talking ToP MUI

[DBZ Macky]

Just like 17 becoming blue level from hunting poachers ? that's not an argument against Vegeta being stronger, how character gain powers and that efforts in gaining it should never be used as an argument for why someone else is > the other, otherwise Broly has no right being as strong as he is or other characters in super shouldn't ass pull.

What I'm trying to say is that both Goku and Vegeta were stated to have grown a lot stronger from their training, so in terms of battle power, the gap between them shouldn't have changed (at least not by a big margin). Where they differ is on what they learnt through their training, with Vegeta mastering the Spirit techniques, and Goku learning to tap into UI Omen/Sign at will (but still not mastering it).

Vegeta evolved blue in the TOP was already >> Kaioken Blue Goku as said by Jiren

Agreed, and I feel that is the main reason why he appears so strong even in the current arc.

Spoiler:

I feel this page is noteworthy to bring up, since here we see Goku actually making Moro bleed, unlike whatever Vegeta manages to accomplish. Goku getting out of breath and Moro feeling confident even after taking visible damage also gives me Goku vs 100% Freeza vibes.

Vegeta is > Omen

I won't deny that it definitely seems like they're on the same level, but I genuinely feel people are getting the wrong idea by making Vegeta have a higher battle power than Goku.

Vegeta clearly took a different approach to defeat Moro, if he could just get stronger than Ultra Instinct by training and increasing raw strength alone, then there is zero narrative reason for him to actually bother himself with the Spirit Fission stuff, since UI Goku was fast enough to nullify Moro's absorption, and Vegeta having a higher battle power should be able to do the same.

You are actually doing Vegeta a disservice if you think he's stronger (in a pure power sense) than Goku right now.

[miguelnuva1]

Moro took Vegeta's punch much better than Goku's in that image above.

[FishermanJohnWest]

What I'm trying to say is that both Goku and Vegeta were stated to have grown a lot stronger from their training, so in terms of battle power, the gap between them shouldn't have changed (at least not by a big margin). Where they differ is on what they learnt through their training, with Vegeta mastering the Spirit techniques, and Goku learning to tap into UI Omen/Sign at will (but still not mastering it).

That's your interpretation though, you believe that they should be similar or the gap shouldn't change yet Moro, Goku and Piccolo say otherwise. By your logic Vegeta should always > Goku or just as equaled cause they train just as hard yet Goku also ass pulls ahead of Vegeta. Effort in training don't equate to anything in a series like Dragon ball

Spoiler:

I feel this page is noteworthy to bring up, since here we see Goku actually making Moro bleed, unlike whatever Vegeta manages to accomplish. Goku getting out of breath and Moro feeling confident even after taking visible damage also gives me Goku vs 100% Freeza vibes.

Goku hit Moro multiple times over at that time, unlike Vegeta who hit Moro once and went straight to using his abilities to drain Moro, their are times where Goku didn't make Moro bleed when hitting him once. If Moro is more in pain in terms of reactions in comparison to that of Goku single assault then that should say enough

I won't deny that it definitely seems like they're on the same level, but I genuinely feel people are getting the wrong idea by making Vegeta have a higher battle power than Goku.

Vegeta clearly took a different approach to defeat Moro, if he could just get stronger than Ultra Instinct by training and increasing raw strength alone, then there is zero narrative reason for him to actually bother himself with the Spirit Fission stuff, since UI Goku was fast enough to nullify Moro's absorption, and Vegeta having a higher battle power should be able to do the same.

You are actually doing Vegeta a disservice if you think he's stronger (in a pure power sense) than Goku right now.

Once again your using your interpretations for why Vegeta can't be as strong as the series is suggesting him to be. They were stronger then Moro before the 2 months passing but Moro beat them with the ability to drain energy, and Vegeta wasn't stronger then Moro before the drain meaning he would fall to Moro if he wasn't using the ability in terms of power, Goku was no different as he tried to overpower Moro but failed to do much damage on him to begin with and questioned how tough he was (and this was Moro being cautious with Goku, once

When Moro saying he will make the finest meal after getting hit once, that alone should tell you that Vegeta power wise > Omen, though it wouldn't be by much anyways

[Grand Marshal 1]

Can we simply address the fact that Vegeta was already weakening Moro from the first punch?

People seem to forget it. Vegeta brought him as far as to his Elder state. It's not far fetched to say that even the first blow reduced Moro's strength significantly.

So yeah, Vegeta was already nearly as strong as Omen, but on top of weakening Moro, he will definitely seem to perform better duh

But we must recycle Piccolo's vague statement of said superior performance (due to Vegeta's overall abilities and strength) as a testament to him somehow getting this strong.

Of course Goku would then say that he needs to train to surpass Vegeta, if Vegeta dealt with an enemy better than Goku could...

Why can't the 2 simply be on the same level?

I give you that Vegeta dealt better with Moro, but if it was Jiren, who would actually have the upper hand?

[Dragon Wukong]

People seem to be really trying to downplay the fact Goku inflicted damage on Moro (to the point he was bleeding in the face.) As well as downplaying the fact that earlier in the chapter they both went full power and Goku's aura won out. (And Gohan being hopeful in his reaction to that spectacle that Goku can win.)

Again, compare it to Vegeta who, although he managed to make Moro slide back somewhat, isn't suggested to have inflicted any actual damage (with comments by 18 and Gohan supporting this notion.) This would suggest that Vegeta's full strength did more poorly against Moro than Goku did. In this case dialogue (and honestly, blood) overtakes any broadly interpretable facial expressions Moro may make during the attacks on him.

Again, I understand liking Vegeta, and I even believe his technique will be key to victory against Moro's new power-up. I won't say definitively that Goku is stronger than Vegeta in Omen, but there's plenty reason to suggest that is, in fact, still the case. I encourage anyone trying to debate that topic at this point to keep this in mind.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s not even about liking Vegeta or not. It’s only about reading what the characters say. Really. Maybe you can doubt Moro’s statement, since he is no god, but I don’t think you are in good faith when you say he has to absorb someone’s energy to tell how powerful someone is. It’s like saying Krillin is more reliable after sensing Cell’s strike than Moro is when he took both Goku and Vegeta’s strikes on his body.

Sorry if this doesn’t seem a good example, but when you take a punch from a boy and a grown-up man, you can’t tell which one hurts more? Sometimes even if you don’t have a visible injury in your body, you can tell by the pain in your limbs. From my perspective, the damage Moro took from Goku is superficial, his powerlevel can be sensed by Piccolo, for example, and wasn’t ever noted to have decreased until Vegeta started fighting him.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Can we simply address the fact that Vegeta was already weakening Moro from the first punch?


People seem to forget it. Vegeta brought him as far as to his Elder state. It's not far fetched to say that even the first blow reduced Moro's strength significantly.

Whether he weakened him or not from the first punch, Moro felt the force from Vegeta punch was enough for him to classify Vegeta as his greatest meal, and Moro doesn't absorb techniques nor knew about the technique, it was his power, and even commented on his power for reaching such heights

So yeah, Vegeta was already nearly as strong as Omen, but on top of weakening Moro, he will definitely seem to perform better duh

Why would Vegeta be nearly as strong when he is said to be stronger ?

But we must recycle Piccolo's vague statement of said superior performance (due to Vegeta's overall abilities and strength) as a testament to him somehow getting this strong.

Of course Goku would then say that he needs to train to surpass Vegeta, if Vegeta dealt with an enemy better than Goku could...

Why can't the 2 simply be on the same level?

Why would Goku want to surpass someone he has already rivaled ? Goku has the spirit bomb, does that mean Vegeta surpassed Goku since he has an amplifier technique on that magnitude ? So when Vegeta was said to surpass SSj3 Goku in BOG, was Roshi lying cause Goku technique would allow him to present someone better then Vegeta ? Just like how Vegeta performance thanks to his new ability gave him the win ?

Absolutely not, Goku is talking about power, he wouldn't need to surpass Vegeta if he was equal or stronger, nor would he need a technique like Vegeta or better when he has UI and is working specifically towards that or he has the spirit bomb which makes him better in power. Vegeta technique works on those who fused or absorbed powers, as Vegeta says, he craves a fair fight

I give you that Vegeta dealt better with Moro, but if it was Jiren, who would actually have the upper hand?

Vegeta and Omen and Moro right now would crush Jiren, Omen feats were more impressive then MUI from the TOP, same MUI that Jiren burnt himself out trying to keep up with by trying to counter faster.

[Dragon Wukong]

It’s not even about liking Vegeta or not. It’s only about reading what the characters say. Really. Maybe you can doubt Moro’s statement, since he is no god, but I don’t think you are in good faith when you say he has to absorb someone’s energy to tell how powerful someone is. It’s like saying Krillin is more reliable after sensing Cell’s strike than Moro is when he took both Goku and Vegeta’s strikes on his body.

Sorry if this doesn’t seem a good example, but when you take a punch from a boy and a grown-up man, you can’t tell which one hurts more? Sometimes even if you don’t have a visible injury in your body, you can tell by the pain in your limbs. From my perspective, the damage Moro took from Goku is superficial, his powerlevel can be sensed by Piccolo, for example, and wasn’t ever noted to have decreased until Vegeta started fighting him.

Look man, you can interpret the "finest meal yet" line as somehow saying Vegeta is stronger than Goku. But nothing he said or did tells me that Vegeta's hits hurt more or did more damage than Goku's (who again, he didn't eat post-training.)

[FishermanJohnWest]

People seem to be really trying to downplay the fact Goku inflicted damage on Moro (to the point he was bleeding in the face.) As well as downplaying the fact that earlier in the chapter they both went full power and Goku's aura won out. (And Gohan being hopeful in his reaction to that spectacle that Goku can win.)

Again, compare it to Vegeta who, although he managed to make Moro slide back somewhat, isn't suggested to have inflicted any actual damage (with comments by 18 and Gohan supporting this notion.) This would suggest that Vegeta's full strength did more poorly against Moro than Goku did. In this case dialogue (and honestly, blood) overtakes any broadly interpretable facial expressions Moro may make during the attacks on him.

Again, I understand liking Vegeta, and I even believe his technique will be key to victory against Moro's new power-up. I won't say definitively that Goku is stronger than Vegeta in Omen, but there's plenty reason to suggest that is, in fact, still the case. I encourage anyone trying to debate that topic at this point to keep this in mind.

Vegeta hit Moro once and that's all cause he used his ability after. Goku only drew blood once he hit Moro many times over as shown in the image, which isn't proving much seeing how Vegeta hit Moro only once in comparison, and even then Moro states he is playing it safe and Goku couldn't do much damage on him.

Even Vegeta hurt Moro stomach and left damage on it.

Moro reactions says it all, he closed his eyes and gave a moment for the pain to go, unlike Goku who he just shook off instantly.

Moro reaction to getting hit once by Goku



Moro reaction to Vegeta hitting him



Moro admits from that 1 punch alone that Vegeta will make his finest meal




Also how Vegeta handles Moro kick in return is much better then Goku reactions, plus Goku gets more damaged by Moro attack then Vegeta

[Hugo Boss]

Look man, you can interpret the "finest meal yet" line as somehow saying Vegeta is stronger than Goku. But nothing he said or did tells me that Vegeta's hits hurt more or did more damage than Goku's (who again, he didn't eat post-training.)

Somehow? Didn’t Goku land full powered strikes on Moro’s body? What else does he need to have a grasp on Goku’s power?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Given the use of statements like Piccolo saying Vegeta's not one to underestimate his opponents, it's a bit suspect to say that Vegeta's the strongest based off of stuff like that.

And looking at the posted feats, it does seem like feats support Goku being the stronger one overall. It could be a case where the dialogue and actual scenes don't correlate that well.

[DBZ Macky]

snip

I noticed from the screenshots you posted, that Moro was clad in energy while fighting Goku unlike when he was fighting Vegeta. Can't be sure if that means anything, but probably worth mentioning when we're going to dissect the fights to that degree.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to how you want to take Moro's "finest meal" statement about Vegeta.

Look man, you can interpret the "finest meal yet" line as somehow saying Vegeta is stronger than Goku. But nothing he said or did tells me that Vegeta's hits hurt more or did more damage than Goku's (who again, he didn't eat post-training.)

Somehow? Didn’t Goku land full powered strikes on Moro’s body? What else does he need to have a grasp on Goku’s power?

Speaking of which, I think you guys are reading too much into that statement.

Goku was fast enough that Moro couldn't even feast on his energy. Keeping that in mind, the fact that Moro is confident in being able to make Vegeta his "finest meal" at all strikes me as odd.

Especially because Vegeta wouldn't be running on fumes like Goku, and wouldn't be losing power as fast as the latter did.
So even if Moro is stronger, how does he intend to actually feast on Vegeta's energy if he's stronger (read: faster) than Goku?

[The Undying]

This discussion is a perfect example of why "feats" matter very, very little. Nobody can agree on whether these panels show Vegeta doing more damage or Goku doing more damage.

The dialogue, however, is fairly clear-cut about this. Both Moro and Goku support the notion that Vegeta is stronger right now - although I'd say it's probably only by an extremely slight margin.

[Dragon Wukong]

People are definitely reading too deeply into that "finest meal" line. It's very reaching to me to even view it as a direct comparison with Goku honestly.

If Moro didn't eat Goku then saying "you'll make my finest meal yet" is just as much a statement that Vegeta is stronger than Merus as it is a statement that he's stronger than Goku.

I still maintain the dialogue during each fight supports the idea Goku was actually stronger while in Ultra Instinct Sign, the only issue (and one way Goku can consider Vegeta having "surpassed" him) is his inability to maintain it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This discussion is a perfect example of why "feats" matter very, very little. Nobody can agree on whether these panels show Vegeta doing more damage or Goku doing more damage.

The dialogue, however, is fairly clear-cut about this. Both Moro and Goku support the notion that Vegeta is stronger right now - although I'd say it's probably only by an extremely slight margin.

At the same time, statements like Piccolo stating Vegeta isn't one to underestimate opponents put even statements into question given Vegeta's actual history.

Both need to be analyzed and compared, as we need both together to form a more complete picture. One or the other just isn't enough, as either tell incomplete tales of what's really going on.

For example, you can't argue that someone's action didn't happen as they did, but you CAN argue that someone's statements aren't accurate since they're only telling us what they think and how they view things; non-omniscient commentators, and all that. A discrepancy between the 2 puts things into question.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I'm afraid that the new chapters will not look into this more, creating new inconsistencies and forming yet another vague power scale.

[The Undying]

At the same time, statements like Piccolo stating Vegeta isn't one to underestimate opponents put even statements into question given Vegeta's actual history.

Nonsense. Piccolo's statement is almost entirely accurate.

Vegeta misread an opponent's strength exactly one time in the original series: Perfect Cell. Every other instance showed his foes hiding techniques or transformations that nobody could have been aware of, and as such wouldn't even factor into how these characters can read another's power.

Statements are always more reliable than feats, particularly those that extrapolate which character is stronger based on highly subjective attributes like speed, facial expressions, etc. that aren't quantifiable in respect to the author's intent. Even if the author misremembers his own story, dialogue serves as direct communication to the audience.

Now, you can construct an argument that Vegeta isn't stronger than Goku based on dialogue (Dragon Wukong here has done exactly that, although I would contest a couple of his points) but that doesn't diminish its significance in general.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

At the same time, statements like Piccolo stating Vegeta isn't one to underestimate opponents put even statements into question given Vegeta's actual history.

Nonsense. Piccolo's statement is almost entirely accurate.

Vegeta misread an opponent's strength exactly one time in the original series: Perfect Cell. Every other instance showed his foes hiding techniques or transformations that nobody could have been aware of, and as such wouldn't even factor into how these characters can read another's power.

Statements are always more reliable than feats, particularly those that extrapolate which character is stronger based on highly subjective attributes like speed, facial expressions, etc. that aren't quantifiable in respect to the author's intent. Even if the author misremembers his own story, dialogue serves as direct communication to the audience.

Now, you can construct an argument that Vegeta isn't stronger than Goku based on dialogue (Dragon Wukong here has done exactly that, although I would contest a couple of his points) but that doesn't diminish its significance in general.

Piccolo's statement?

Underestimating someone because you didn't factor in unknown quantities? Perfectly valid to say they're underestimations. The unknown factor doesn't matter, because Vegeta's own cockiness ends up costing him because he didn't take his opponents as seriously as he should've. Goku, Recoome, Freeza, Majin Buu, Goku Black, etc., these are all instances where Vegeta underestimated his opponents for one reason or another; simply not getting the memo on one's power level isn't the only factor.

So already that defeats your argument because you're limiting the spectrum of what underestimating something actually means. If Vegeta goes in expecting things to go well because he's the goddamned Prince of all Saiyans, and then it doesn't and he gets his sh*t wrecked, it means he underestimated things. Doesn't matter if he didn't see it coming; he thought he would be fine based on his own read, and then things went bad. He underestimated how prepared he was.

And anyways, if there's an inherent contradiction between what happens and what's said, it means there's a disconnect between the story and what actually well and truly happened. Is the dialogue wrong because it doesn't match what we're seeing? Or are the visuals wrong, because it doesn't match what we're being told? Basic storytelling 101 would have it be that you balance out "Show, Don't Tell" with "Tell, Don't Show".

Which is where I take issue with your interpretation. The logical end point is that if the dialogue is telling us something, but then the complete opposite is happening through the visuals, that we should take the dialogue over the visuals simply because it's written down. What gives it inherently more value? That it's a direct line to what the author is intending? But if there are artists portraying the action directly, are they simply not as important? And that's not even getting into how you can end up saying the wrong things, IRL and in-universe.