Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

You do realize that this version of Ultra Instinct Sign Goku is VASTLY more powerful than the one from the ToP right?

Yes.

So yes, he’s stronger than his previous MUI from the ToP while in UI Sign.

That's a strange leap in logic right there. That because his Sign form is much stronger than before then of course it must be stronger than the Mastered version as well.

It isn't. Regardless of how much time passed, what he did, who he trained with, the current Ultra Instinct Sign is not stronger than the Ultra Instinct from before. That would make no sense and just is not how writing works.

If Goku had surpassed the level he used against Jiren, they would have absolutely have made that clear. It isn't as strong and that's the whole reason why they haven't used it yet.

Funny, since you yourself are now the one making a huge leap in assumption. You’re assuming that MUI is THAT MUCH of a boost over UI Sign. Which simply isn’t true. There’s no reason to assume that MUI is anything more than twice as powerful as Ultra Instinct Sign. Yet Goku became many times more powerful than that since all this time. It’s up to you to prove that MUI Goku from the ToP is still that much more powerful. All the evidence points towards the idea that current UI Omen Goku is stronger than the MUI from the ToP. The feats and statements are there for you to see, if you’re just open to them.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Funny, since you yourself are now the one making a huge leap in assumption. You’re assuming that MUI is THAT MUCH of a boost over UI Sign. Which simply isn’t true. There’s no reason to assume that MUI is anything more than twice as powerful as Ultra Instinct Sign. Yet Goku became many times more powerful than that since all this time. It’s up to you to prove that MUI Goku from the ToP is still that much more powerful. All the evidence points towards the idea that current UI Omen Goku is stronger than the MUI from the ToP. The feats and statements are there for you to see, if you’re just open to them.

You say I'm assuming then proceed to assume how MUI can't be twice as strong as UIO and that Goku also got many times stronger.

There's is no evidence at all that suggests it's stronger. "All evidence"? There's no evidence, complete and utter zero.

Nobody has ever said or suggested at any point ever that Gokus current incomplete UI is superior to his former mastered UI.

That's because for obvious logical reasons it isn't.

[Koitsukai]

There is nothing saying, hinting or even implying current Omen is stronger than ToP Ultra Instinct. Nobody compared them, one would think surpassing that level of power would come with an actual statement.

Even when they couldn't even sense their ki, they could all follow the fight between Omen and Moro and the fight between Vegeta and Moro too for that matter, unlike Goku and Jiren's final stand that not even the reader saw and only Whis and Beerus had the eye for. So, at best it's a inconsistent feat with nothing to it.

I highly doubt such a huge power would be surpassed and the reader would only get a one-time vague hint in a panel regarding speed.

[Dragon Wukong]

My current assumption has been, based on the description Merus and Whis gave of Sign anyhow, is that UI Sign is possibly equivalent to UI itself in terms of strength, but difficult to maintain and use properly. If that is the case, then Goku himself getting stronger would mean that he was stronger in his fight against Moro than in his fight against Jiren. But who knows right now? It's very ambiguous.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Was Jiren stated to transcend the God's as well or just Belmod? If so UI(Silver) was able to contend with someone on that level... To the point where Jiren was left with a miniscule amount of energy after, even the base Saiyan's could fight him after.

UI Omen from this arc could fight against some one of similar level... but lacked the power to actually put a dent or pose a threat to Moro. I'd say UI(Silver) from the ToP(Manga) is still above current UI Omen Goku & Vegeta(Post Yardrat). I'd put that Goku on the level of Prime Moro at least imo.

[Dragon Wukong]

Was Jiren stated to transcend the God's as well or just Belmod? If so UI(Silver) was able to contend with someone on that level... To the point where Jiren was left with a miniscule amount of energy after, even the base Saiyan's could fight him after.

UI Omen from this arc could fight against some one of similar level... but lacked the power to actually put a dent or pose a threat to Moro. I'd say UI(Silver) from the ToP(Manga) is still above current UI Omen Goku & Vegeta(Post Yardrat). I'd put that Goku on the level of Prime Moro at least imo.

Jiren is only ever directly compared to Belmod. So how he scales compared to Beerus in the manga is relatively unknown. Belmod's strategy in the Zeno exhibition was basically the same as 17's in the Tournament.

[Nevaeh]

How current Omen compares to previous UI is irrelevant tbh

We just got our first legit hint of where Moro stands. He's implied to be absurdly more powerful than Broly, Beerus and Jiren

[Hugo Boss]

We just got our first legit hint of where Moro stands. He's implied to be absurdly more powerful than Broly, Beerus and Jiren

Which is?

[Dragon Wukong]

How current Omen compares to previous UI is irrelevant tbh

We just got our first legit hint of where Moro stands. He's implied to be absurdly more powerful than Broly, Beerus and Jiren

IMO it's more dependent on where Merus stands between Beerus and Whis. If Merus was closer to Whis, he's by far the strongest opponent in the series so far. If he's around Beerus' level, where he stands with regard to Beerus and possibly Jiren (though based on his fight with Ultra Instinct Goku, I'd still assume stronger than Jiren.) Based on Piccolo's comment, we can assume fusion (possibly SSB fusion, given Goku's horrid inability to maintain Ultra Instinct) would be enough if he didn't have Vegeta's Spirit Fission.

For now I assume he's the strongest opponent yet now, however.

[Koitsukai]

We don't know how 7.3's copying ability used to work against weaker enemies, we know he grabs a stronger opponent and becomes just as strong and able to do everything they do, but if he were to grab Roshi, would he have his weak kicks and punches too, becoming weaker for 30 minutes? or would he keep his regular strenght but using the copied techniques but with his own -stronger- power?

After Moro grabbed Vegeta, he stacked that power on top of his? did his power got reduce to Vegeta's level? or he remained as strong as before but he can use whatever he copied now but with his stronger potency?

what do you guys think?

[Hugo Boss]

We don't know how 7.3's copying ability used to work against weaker enemies, we know he grabs a stronger opponent and becomes just as strong and able to do everything they do, but if he were to grab Roshi, would he have his weak kicks and punches too, becoming weaker for 30 minutes? or would he keep his regular strenght but using the copied techniques but with his own -stronger- power?

After Moro grabbed Vegeta, he stacked that power on top of his? did his power got reduce to Vegeta's level? or he remained as strong as before but he can use whatever he copied now but with his stronger potency?

what do you guys think?

73 originally should have power similar to Piccolo, since he managed to grab his neck. But when he switches to Piccolo’s profile his powerlevel temporarily matches Piccolo’s. So, it’s a given that he doesn’t stack powerlevels.

With Moro, the thing is that he added his own profile to the original being, thus increasing his power to beyond what it was before, as noted by Goku. When he switches to Vegeta’s profile he doesn’t add or matches Vegeta’s powerlevel because his original powerlevel is already above Vegeta’s.

[Dragon Wukong]

We don't know how 7.3's copying ability used to work against weaker enemies, we know he grabs a stronger opponent and becomes just as strong and able to do everything they do, but if he were to grab Roshi, would he have his weak kicks and punches too, becoming weaker for 30 minutes? or would he keep his regular strenght but using the copied techniques but with his own -stronger- power?

After Moro grabbed Vegeta, he stacked that power on top of his? did his power got reduce to Vegeta's level? or he remained as strong as before but he can use whatever he copied now but with his stronger potency?

what do you guys think?

While using Piccolo's regen he managed to stab right through an SSB Goku. So I assume he can go up to his regular power regardless of what copied ability he's using.

[BWri]

It's doubtful. Beerus is still the measuring stick. Vegeta wasn't even close the last time they had a battle.

The last time Beerus was a measuring stick was with Broly, who's very likely outright stronger. And while Beerus shot down Vegeta last time, Vegeta did manage to land a noticeable blow to Beerus' face that angered him. (Mind you, the difference between two powers does not have to be particularly massive for one character to one-shot another.)

And you're missing the point that ever since that fight, Vegeta achieved further strength through greater mastery of Blue, and learned a technique that can drain one's power through physical contact. (And not just absorptions, as seen during his training with Pybara.)

Ultimately, it's actually likely all three of them rival one another in some way at this point. It's possible Beerus has Goku beat in pure strength even in Ultra Instinct Sign, but Goku's technique might win out. And Vegeta's ability to drain his energy might win in a fight against Beerus at the very least, assuming he can't hit Goku.

It's always the same song and dance with Beerus and his power. Statements and comparisons alluding to his true power keep being made and yet he continues to prove he's far beyond those statements, mainly because plot and because they seem to continue to want him to be the measuring stick. Broly, Jiren ... they're flavors of the month. Neither of them surpasses Beerus at this point.

And to your Vegeta point, I believe that even with all that training Vegeta's done, even up to chapter 62 of DBS, I still think he's far weaker than Beerus. I have a feeling Beerus could defeat Moro pretty easily as long as Supreme Kai is protected but we can see that Vegeta is outclassed by him. If Moro can take on Merus, then we could at least confirm that Moro is angel tier. I would then concede that Vegeta and Goku might have surpassed Beerus at that point and I say might because we don't exactly know how Merus stacks up against Whis. I have a feeling that like Beerus, Whis is the strongest of all the Angels other than GP since he doesn't think Vados is stronger than him anymore.

I think Beerus not knowing mastered UI is one of those outs that Toriyama is using to put Beerus in contention with the current high tier fighters to make us question who is strongest, but I still believe he is beyond them even without it and by quite a large margin still if he's fighting seriously.

Logically what you're saying makes a lot of sense, but there's too many other clues for me to accept that Beerus is anything other than the series measuring stick at this point, outside of the angels, of course.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Moro hasn't been compared to Beerus, Jiren or Broly.

The only thing he's done is beat characters that those other characters would be able to do just the same.

Mix and match with the anime and Moro is stronger than 100% Jiren but not Super Full Power Jiren.

[Dragon Wukong]

It's always the same song and dance with Beerus and his power. Statements and comparisons alluding to his true power keep being made and yet he continues to prove he's far beyond those statements, mainly because plot and because they seem to continue to want him to be the measuring stick. Broly, Jiren ... they're flavors of the month. Neither of them surpasses Beerus at this point.

And to your Vegeta point, I believe that even with all that training Vegeta's done, even up to chapter 62 of DBS, I still think he's far weaker than Beerus. I have a feeling Beerus could defeat Moro pretty easily as long as Supreme Kai is protected but we can see that Vegeta is outclassed by him. If Moro can take on Merus, then we could at least confirm that Moro is angel tier. I would then concede that Vegeta and Goku might have surpassed Beerus at that point and I say might because we don't exactly know how Merus stacks up against Whis. I have a feeling that like Beerus, Whis is the strongest of all the Angels other than GP since he doesn't think Vados is stronger than him anymore.

I think Beerus not knowing mastered UI is one of those outs that Toriyama is using to put Beerus in contention with the current high tier fighters to make us question who is strongest, but I still believe he is beyond them even without it and by quite a large margin still if he's fighting seriously.

Logically what you're saying makes a lot of sense, but there's too many other clues for me to accept that Beerus is anything other than the series measuring stick at this point, outside of the angels, of course.

No one has made any statements alluding to Beerus' true power for a long time. Broly was compared to him, but that's it. We outright see him use his full power in the manga to fend off the other Gods of Destruction.

You can feel that way about Beerus' strength, you're entitled to, but as I said around a week ago, there's been plenty of reason to suggest Beerus just ain't that impressive anymore.

[FishermanJohnWest]

There is nothing saying, hinting or even implying current Omen is stronger than ToP Ultra Instinct. Nobody compared them, one would think surpassing that level of power would come with an actual statement.

Even when they couldn't even sense their ki, they could all follow the fight between Omen and Moro and the fight between Vegeta and Moro too for that matter, unlike Goku and Jiren's final stand that not even the reader saw and only Whis and Beerus had the eye for. So, at best it's a inconsistent feat with nothing to it.

I highly doubt such a huge power would be surpassed and the reader would only get a one-time vague hint in a panel regarding speed.

nobody needs to compare them in series. They couldn't follow Omen movements before, and they followed MUI vs Jiren until the last 2 panels so it's not proving or disproving anything, but since this is a Omen that is Post TOP, Post Broly and Post 6 months training, Omen to MUI would need to be a bigger boost then all that, which it has no feats or statements suggesting so

[FishermanJohnWest]

Moro hasn't been compared to Beerus, Jiren or Broly.

The only thing he's done is beat characters that those other characters would be able to do just the same.

Mix and match with the anime and Moro is stronger than 100% Jiren but not Super Full Power Jiren.

Super full power Jiren isn't even that impressive, Omen to MUi isn't even that big of an increase. You have to wank Omen to Mui multiplier in order for it to surpass post ToP, Post Broly, Post 6 months training

[Grand Marshal 1]

I'm of the idea that Boosts in power don't have to be massive. Simple percentage increases can make the difference. From getting stomped to stomping, without needing to grow exponentially stronger.

Also, it goes without saying that even if someone is massively stronger, you can still compete with them. Although that mostly seems to be the case with God tier+ characters.

Post-ToP means nothing. Goku using MUI had increased his power as much as possible from the tournament. Post-ToP is the same as ending-of-ToP.

In the Broly movie, both Goku and Vegeta have trained, but nothing implies huge strength increases. As in the assassin arc of super, I see it as them trying to not get rusty.

From their fight with Broly, only the latter grew stronger. They used fusion to end it. No real increase there.

The only training which made them stronger is the one before facing Moro. Vegeta accessing Blue Evo and surprising others by saying 'he is using the same form from the ToP!' hints that he hasn't accessed this kind of strength ever since, which makes sense if he didn't grow in power much.

I can see current Omen as a bit stronger than ToP, the power stressed variant much more, but both below MUI from the time.

I agree with the notion that if we mix the anime FP Jiren < Prime Moro and 7-Moro-3 < SFP/LB Jiren

Again at this tier, the fights are super intense. Just the way they were in the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Super full power Jiren isn't even that impressive, Omen to MUi isn't even that big of an increase.

An assumption. One shown to not be the case in the anime in addition.

You have to wank Omen to Mui multiplier in order for it to surpass post ToP, Post Broly, Post 6 months training

But you're also trying to wank the growth as well. "Surpass post ToP" as though that's of any significance at all? What exactly did he do post ToP? Nothing of relevance.

"Surpass Post Broly" as though that also makes a radical difference? Did he have some kind of special training that boosted him through the roof?

Why are you assuming there's some notable difference between how he was at the ToP and how he was at the start of the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga when they never noted any difference of worth? Barely any time even passed between those two points.

Don't try to make it sound more impressive than it is. Between the ToP and the present, he sparred with Vegeta over a short period of time and trained for half a year with Merus. Absolutely nothing to suggest he comes close to MUI.

[FishermanJohnWest]

I'm of the idea that Boosts in power don't have to be massive. Simple percentage increases can make the difference. From getting stomped to stomping, without needing to grow exponentially stronger.

Also, it goes without saying that even if someone is massively stronger, you can still compete with them. Although that mostly seems to be the case with God tier+ characters.

Yet feats show they have grown exponentially stronger.

Post-ToP means nothing. Goku using MUI had increased his power as much as possible from the tournament. Post-ToP is the same as ending-of-ToP.

In the Broly movie, both Goku and Vegeta have trained, but nothing implies huge strength increases. As in the assassin arc of super, I see it as them trying to not get rusty.

From their fight with Broly, only the latter grew stronger. They used fusion to end it. No real increase there.

Flawed logic, post black arc Goku = Hit, and this Hit was stronger then then Hit which beat Kaioken x 10 SSJB Goku an arc before. KK x 4 from saiyan saga is weaker then Base Goku when he arrives on Namek. And the director talks about Frieza increase in strength. This is DB, they always get stronger after every arc.

The only training which made them stronger is the one before facing Moro. Vegeta accessing Blue Evo and surprising others by saying 'he is using the same form from the ToP!' hints that he hasn't accessed this kind of strength ever since, which makes sense if he didn't grow in power much.

He was using the same form, but the power has increase vastly that even Moro praised him twice for his increase in strength compared to before, and when Moro sensed Vegeta on yadrat, he stocked up on his own power in return cause of that. And pybara talks about Vegeta insane increase in strength cause of his spirit honing. Saying Vegeta didn't grow in power is insane within it's own rights

I can see current Omen as a bit stronger than ToP, the power stressed variant much more, but both below MUI from the time.

I agree with the notion that if we mix the anime FP Jiren < Prime Moro and 7-Moro-3 < SFP/LB Jiren

Again at this tier, the fights are super intense. Just the way they were in the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga.

A bit stronger is nonsense

SSJB Goku crushed Sanganbo easily, and Saganbo crushed Gohan, Piccolo, 17 and 18 at the same time, and he should easily be >> CSSJB Goku TOP cause of that. Meaning SSJB Goku right now is leagues stronger then before. Omen had better feats, so why would SFP Jiren be stronger ? Cause he fought MUI ? So is SSJ Goku from Namek stronger then Base Goku in DBS cause he used SSJ form then ? Flawed logic

Also after the Broly arc, it's said that Goku and Vegeta powered up more then ever after fighting Broly.