Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

It makes ZERO sense for an enemy from 2 Arcs ago to be anywhere CLOSE to the current one. Was Frieza close to Majin Buu in terms of power? No.

Was Vegeta close to Perfect Cell in terms of power? Hell No! So why should Jiren be anywhere close to a Fused Being from 2 Arcs later???!

This is where you're making the mistake. This comparison is absolutely nothing a like.

This isn't Dragon Ball Z. The same thing does not apply here. Golden Frieza was two arcs before Zamasu and he was still drastically stronger than him. Was Goku Black close to Golden Frieza? Yes actually he was.

You’re wrong. Hit WAS stronger than Golden Frieza near the very end of their fight! He forced (a post 3 year of training) SSJ Blue Goku to go Kaioken x10!

Now you're talking about the anime. In the manga, Hit was inferior to Golden Frieza and Zamasu was inferior to Hit.

Even in the anime, Hit was only superior to Golden Frieza through the use of his time skip and then of course by that regard it would also mean the next main villain that was Goku Black and Zamasu were inferior to that.

The feats speak for themselves. You can continue to ignore them all you want, but doing that does not exactly make you look very good in front of anyone watching this conversation.

This is ironic because....you haven't got anything. Your entire argument boils down to "Jiren was an older villain than Moro so he has to be weaker than Moro".

Which then falls apart when I mentioned that Zamasu is weaker than both Hit and Golden Frieza which you conveniently ignored.

"The feats speak for themselves"...So you brought up how Vegeta stomped Jiren, which he didn't, as if that was some kind of point though you know full well that wasn't even Jiren at full power so what's even the purpose of bringing that up?

[GodVegetto91]

It makes ZERO sense for an enemy from 2 Arcs ago to be anywhere CLOSE to the current one. Was Frieza close to Majin Buu in terms of power? No.

Was Vegeta close to Perfect Cell in terms of power? Hell No! So why should Jiren be anywhere close to a Fused Being from 2 Arcs later???!

This is where you're making the mistake. This comparison is absolutely nothing a like.

This isn't Dragon Ball Z. The same thing does not apply here. Golden Frieza was two arcs before Zamasu and he was still drastically stronger than him. Was Goku Black close to Golden Frieza? Yes actually he was.

You’re wrong. Hit WAS stronger than Golden Frieza near the very end of their fight! He forced (a post 3 year of training) SSJ Blue Goku to go Kaioken x10!

Now you're talking about the anime. In the manga, Hit was inferior to Golden Frieza and Zamasu was inferior to Hit.

Even in the anime, Hit was only superior to Golden Frieza through the use of his time skip and then of course by that regard it would also mean the next main villain that was Goku Black and Zamasu were inferior to that.

The feats speak for themselves. You can continue to ignore them all you want, but doing that does not exactly make you look very good in front of anyone watching this conversation.

This is ironic because....you haven't got anything. Your entire argument boils down to "Jiren was an older villain than Moro so he has to be weaker than Moro".

Which then falls apart when I mentioned that Zamasu is weaker than both Hit and Golden Frieza which you conveniently ignored.

"The feats speak for themselves"...So you brought up how Vegeta stomped Jiren, which he didn't, as if that was some kind of point though you know full well that wasn't even Jiren at full power so what's even the purpose of bringing that up?

“Nothing alike these comparisons are.”

Why is that? Give me some actual evidence for why my examples don’t work. You can’t.

Also, we’re talking about “the strongest version” of the main enemy. Not their first appearance.

I’m not even going to use Merged Zamasu, since he’s obviously stronger than Golden Frieza or Hit were.

We’re going to use Goku Black. And I’m using the Anime here as an example.

The Goku Black that definitely surpasses Golden Frieza (and even Hit), was the SSJ Rosé Goku Black that hurt himself with his energy blade after losing to Vegeta. He got another powerup, and even created countless clones of himself. This version of SSJ Rosé Goku Black is the correct example to use and is the one to compare to previous enemies. This is the strongest. It was the one right before fusing with Future Zamasu to become Merged Zamasu.

[Skar]

Occam’s Razor guys.

If we're going by Occam's Razor then we should take statements at face value. Jiren was said to be stronger than the GoDs or at least confirmed to be above Belmod and Goku thought Broly might be stronger than Beerus but we don't have any comparison between Moro and Beerus yet. It's common in DB for a new antagonist to defeat the previous one or someone close to their power so the same could've been done with Broly if he really is weaker than Moro. Moro and the henchmen conveniently never found Vampa while searching for planets to consume.

[Jack Bz]

It makes ZERO sense for an enemy from 2 Arcs ago to be anywhere CLOSE to the current one. Was Frieza close to Majin Buu in terms of power? No.

Was Vegeta close to Perfect Cell in terms of power? Hell No! So why should Jiren be anywhere close to a Fused Being from 2 Arcs later???!

This is where you're making the mistake. This comparison is absolutely nothing a like.

This isn't Dragon Ball Z. The same thing does not apply here. Golden Frieza was two arcs before Zamasu and he was still drastically stronger than him. Was Goku Black close to Golden Frieza? Yes actually he was.

You’re wrong. Hit WAS stronger than Golden Frieza near the very end of their fight! He forced (a post 3 year of training) SSJ Blue Goku to go Kaioken x10!

Now you're talking about the anime. In the manga, Hit was inferior to Golden Frieza and Zamasu was inferior to Hit.

Even in the anime, Hit was only superior to Golden Frieza through the use of his time skip and then of course by that regard it would also mean the next main villain that was Goku Black and Zamasu were inferior to that.

The feats speak for themselves. You can continue to ignore them all you want, but doing that does not exactly make you look very good in front of anyone watching this conversation.

This is ironic because....you haven't got anything. Your entire argument boils down to "Jiren was an older villain than Moro so he has to be weaker than Moro".

Which then falls apart when I mentioned that Zamasu is weaker than both Hit and Golden Frieza which you conveniently ignored.

"The feats speak for themselves"...So you brought up how Vegeta stomped Jiren, which he didn't, as if that was some kind of point though you know full well that wasn't even Jiren at full power so what's even the purpose of bringing that up?

“Nothing alike these comparisons are.”

Why is that? Give me some actual evidence for why my examples don’t work. You can’t.

Also, we’re talking about “the strongest version” of the main enemy. Not their first appearance.

I’m not even going to use Merged Zamasu, since he’s obviously stronger than Golden Frieza or Hit were.

We’re going to use Goku Black. And I’m using the Anime here as an example.

The Goku Black that definitely surpasses Golden Frieza (and even Hit), was the SSJ Rosé Goku Black that hurt himself with his energy blade after losing to Vegeta. He got another powerup, and even created countless clones of himself. This version of SSJ Rosé Goku Black is the correct example to use and is the one to compare to previous enemies. This is the strongest. It was the one right before fusing with Future Zamasu to become Merged Zamasu.

You need to stop using examples from the anime when we are talking about the manga. It has often wildly different rules to the anime, and Moro is as of now a manga exclusive character.

Hit, in the manga, isn't insanely strong. Goku as a super saiyan puts up a good fight, but loses stamina faster than hit. Goku as an ssj god knocks Hit around silly, but hit manages to do a temporary power up enough to have ssj god effected by time skip. Goku counters this by going ssj blue and the time skip doesnt effect him.

In the manga, the rules of time skip are that it only effects people around or weaker than the power of the user. This means that Hit's strength isn't even near Goku when he uses ssj blue, the time skip doesn't effect him. And Hit had to massively power up to a state he could only hold for a few seconds to use a time skip that could effect Goku at super saiyan god, meaning he had to exert a lot of effort just to be temporarily in the realm of strength as a super saiyan god.

However, I do agree that Goku Black is clearly stronger than Golden Freeza and Hit, once he achieves rosé. But the main problems from the U6 tournament saga and the future trunks arc was Hit's time skip and Zamasu's immortality, those were the issues the protagonists had to solve.

[GodVegetto91]

Xeno Goku Black, what if Moro 73 manages to copy Merus’ Angel powers and gets Ultra Instinct in the next chapter..

Will you still say that he’s weaker than Jiren?
Or will you finally be forced to admit that he’s stronger than Jiren?

I’d like to hear what you have to say about that.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Why is that? Give me some actual evidence for why my examples don’t work. You can’t.

I already did....

We’re going to use Goku Black. And I’m using the Anime here as an example.

Both of which you used for means of convenience. If we're talking about the manga with Moro and Jiren and his fight with Vegeta that you referred to then why are we using the anime?

No we have to stick to the manga. Why are we also using Goku Black when it's Zamasu who was the main antagonist?

So in that regard was Goku Black in the manga drastically stronger than Golden Frieza in Resurrection F? No not at all, nothing at all like with Vegeta/Cell or Frieza/Buu.

No instead, going strictly by the manga and Resurrection F, Beerus is stronger than Golden Frieza, Golden Frieza is stronger than Hit, Hit was stronger than Zamasu and Goku Black was still within the same ballpark as Golden Frieza.

So that can obviously be a whole thing and yet Jiren, Broly and Moro being in an undetermined order can't be?

Forgetting this old fashioned rule of yours, Moro has done nothing not has anything been said about him that suggests he's stronger than either of those.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Xeno Goku Black, what if Moro 73 manages to copy Merus’ Angel powers and gets Ultra Instinct in the next chapter..

Will you still say that he’s weaker than Jiren?
Or will you finally be forced to admit that he’s stronger than Jiren?

I’d like to hear what you have to say about that.

That's a very strange way of putting it. As if I have some personal vendetta against the character.

That's just a hypothetical, if Moro gets Merus' abilities and then proves to be some kind of even match for Goku again or even beats him up then yeah I'd say he was stronger than Jiren.

If Jiren suddenly shows up in the next chapter and Moro kicks him around I'd say the same. If Goku actually comes out right and says "You're the strongest person I've ever fought in my entire life" then I'd also say the same.

I'm just talking about what we've seen up to yet. Whis could say that Moro is stronger than him in the next chapter for all I know.

[GodVegetto91]

Xeno Goku Black, what if Moro 73 manages to copy Merus’ Angel powers and gets Ultra Instinct in the next chapter..

Will you still say that he’s weaker than Jiren?
Or will you finally be forced to admit that he’s stronger than Jiren?

I’d like to hear what you have to say about that.

That's a very strange way of putting it. As if I have some personal vendetta against the character.

That's just a hypothetical, if Moro gets Merus' abilities and then proves to be some kind of even match for Goku again or even beats him up then yeah I'd say he was stronger than Jiren.

If Jiren suddenly shows up in the next chapter and Moro kicks him around I'd say the same. If Goku actually comes out right and says "You're the strongest person I've ever fought in my entire life" then I'd also say the same.

I'm just talking about what we've seen up to yet. Whis could say that Moro is stronger than him in the next chapter for all I know.

Alright then, fair enough, but you can’t say that the latest appearance of SSJ Rosé Goku Black is not stronger than Golden Freeza or Hit in the Manga. In fact, Golden Freeza never even appeared in the Manga outside of the ToP, so we can’t say anything about his strength.

I still stand by my point: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

And the SSBE Vegeta Vs Jiren and Prime Moro bit is absolutely relevant in that.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Alright then, fair enough, but you can’t say that the latest appearance of SSJ Rosé Goku Black is not stronger than Golden Freeza or Hit in the Manga. In fact, Golden Freeza never even appeared in the Manga outside of the ToP, so we can’t say anything about his strength.

I'd say that Goku Black in the manga was stronger than Golden Frieza sure (and obviously Hit) but not by leaps and bounds. Not like how Frieza was hundreds of times stronger than Vegeta and Cell was many times stronger than Frieza even at his weakest.

There was no manga equivalent of Golden Frieza likely because the movie was still new so I'd always use that as any kind of comparison same for Broly in his movie.

I still stand by my point: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

But based on what? Forgetting the whole he must be stronger because he's newer thing. Forgetting any outside promotional hype. What did Broly do to suggest he's stronger than Jiren? What did Prime Moro do that Broly or Jiren couldn't have done the selves?

And the SSBE Vegeta Vs Jiren and Prime Moro bit is absolutely relevant in that.

How? Jiren took him out with complete ease the second he wanted to. After that he powered up to face Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, then he powered up again which Krillin said was his Chi spiking again so he obviously powered up a lot twice. Then he powered up a third time when fighting Ultra Instinct Goku.

So what does a heavily suppressed Jiren and his fight with Vegeta have to do with it? I may as well mention how that same Vegeta in the same form gave Moro a beating back on Namek.

[Skar]

I still stand by my point: Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren.

What's your explanation for why Moro never ran into Broly when he spent two months consuming energy across the universe? The only reason I could think of is because Broly would've killed him. If Broly was weaker, it would've been the perfect opportunity to show the new antagonist defeating the previous one which has been pretty common throughout the series.

[GodVegetto91]

After Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta delivered a full-power power-punch to Moro’s gut and it still had no effect at all,

Piccolo said that Prime Moro’s power, is ”at a level that can’t be overcome with training alone.”

Jiren trained alone.

Moro > Jiren. According to Piccolo.

Also, only a “smidgen” of Prime Moro’s energy/power was enough to turn Saganbo into an absolute monster that not even a post tournament of power Gohan could handle with the help of Piccolo, 17, and 18.

[Koitsukai]

How can you put so much thought into that vague Piccolo statement and disregard the clear-cut statements about Vegito Blue and Broly?

Also, how can you use the anime as evidence but dismiss Belmod being implied to be at least on par with Beerus, making Jiren so much stronger than Belmod(and Beerus) by the end of the anime?

[Helios518]

You missed it where Toriyama stated Beerus is the strongest in universe 7. That includes over Freeza. So he is saving the STRONGEST for later which coincides with his next enemy "always" strongest narrative.

I didn't miss anything

Do you acknowledge that RoF takes places after BoG? If so go to the next question.

Do you acknowledge that Freeza is the RoF's antagonist while Beerus is BoG's antagonists? If so go to the next question.

Do you believe that an antagonist is always weaker than the following arc's antagonist? If so Freeza is stronger than Beerus because Freeza was the antagonist of the arc following BoG. It wouldn't matter if Beerus didn't go full-power because Freeza is stronger out of virtue of being the antagonist after.

If you believe Beerus is stronger than Freeza than an antagonist isn't always weaker than the following arc's antagonist.


It's really simple tbh. You can't say "antagonist are always weaker than the follow antagonist except when they aren't" otherwise it isn't always. Unless you somehow don't think "always" means "every time" despite the official definitions.

Again, it's fine to think Toriyama's isn't some omniscient writer that can keep track of every single line that he wrote down/said. It's also fine to think that Toriyama has free will and can subvert writing rules.

Again you missed where Toriyama addressed your claim. He stated that Beerus is stronger than Freeza cause he "preserved his dignity" to be a future opponent. Which automatically makes Beerus stronger than Freeza, Hit, Black etc. Since he will fight later.

Once again, I know what he said but that doesn't negate the fact that Toriyama's lines are contradictory to each other which I've previously explained. If don't want to know what always means and if you don't believe that Beerus/Freeza is BoG/RoF's antagonist than I can't help you much further.

[Cipher]

Again, no horse in the race, but I think we’re also Ignoring the why of antagonists constantly being stronger than the previous in the original run.

With the sole exception of Majin Boo at the very end, a main cast member had always beaten the main villain using sheer strength. Even in Boo’s case, several had exceeded him (they just wound up not being around for the final fight). This demanded the next antagonist be established to be even stronger, such that the heroes could credibly be given trouble again.

That isn’t always the case in Super. Beerus may have been intended as an exception, but he helped shake up the pattern for a continuing sequel as well. Goku is spared by Beerus after losing; Zamasu can’t be defeated by traditional means (and, in the anime, also remains far stronger than either Goku or Vegeta by the end); Jiren remains far stronger than any cast member’s normal power but the situation allows him to be rung out through teamwork; Broly requires a fusion, etc.

Hence, in the Moro arc, the goal not being a clear cut “we have to get stronger than Jiren and Broly,” but reclaiming the temporary power that allowed Goku to stand up to Jiren prior. When villains start and finish arcs stronger than the entire cast—defeated by other means—it opens the story up to non-lateral movement in terms of antagonist strength in a way the original DB could never allow for. The growth doesn’t need to be “Can they beat a stronger guy?,” but rather “Can they beat another guy on this (vague Beerus+) level using more of their own strength than they were able to last time?”

When it matters—when strength relationships between antagonists need to be clear cut—both DB and Super waste no time establishing it. Dabra is said to be as strong as Cell, and is put down effortlessly by Majin Boo. Jiren bounces perfected Blue Goku, who was roughly 1:1 with Zamasu, back with a single kiai. Etc.

When the series goes out of its way to avoid direct comparison, as it does between Jiren, Broly and Moro, aside from including them in the same general realm of power (probably above Beerus/Gods of Destruction—the most it needs to commit to at this point, as that’s clearly still outside of the casts’ normal range; it’s the only code it needs for “This guy’s trouble”)—it should tell us clearly that: It doesn’t matter; the series can make lateral movements if the cast is facing multiple villains outside of their league and beating them without traditionally surpassing them; it isn’t meant to be clear.

That’s the Occam’s razor in this case: It’s no longer pertinent to the story, so it’s no longer essential that we—or even it—clearly know.

Thus there being decent arguments in both directions at this point.

[Helios518]

After Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta delivered a full-power power-punch to Moro’s gut and it still had no effect at all,

Piccolo said that Prime Moro’s power, is ”at a level that can’t be overcome with training alone.”

Jiren trained alone.

While I'm not stating how Geran compares to Moro. I do believe this isn't a good statement to compare them. Yes, Geran trained to get where he's at but Vegeta mostly only trained to receive the level of power he's achieves besides his modest Majin boost. Another thing is that I seriously doubt Piccolo would know the exact training gains of Hit, Freeza, Geran, and many other alien races when he barely been around them. Also, these lines were made before (E.G Beerus talking about god-tier in BoG) when they always get debunked through some dude training.

[Jack Bz]

When villains start and finish arcs stronger than the entire cast—defeated by other means—it opens the story up to non-lateral movement in terms of antagonist strength in a way the original DB could never allow for. The growth doesn’t need to be “Can they beat a stronger guy?,” but rather “Can they beat another guy on this (vague Beerus+) level using more of their own strength than they were able to last time?”

Great post; this is essentially the core of what super does differently than dragon ball in terms of its villains. Even at the end of the Broly arc, Goku and Vegeta are definitely weaker than Jiren, the antagonist of a previous arc. This makes the comparisons to the arcs in Z extra egregious; Goku wasn't weaker than Freeza at the end of the Cell arc, or weaker than cell by the end of the boo arc. Super is willing to play with this aspect of dragon ball.

[Miracles]

I didn't miss anything

Do you acknowledge that RoF takes places after BoG? If so go to the next question.

Do you acknowledge that Freeza is the RoF's antagonist while Beerus is BoG's antagonists? If so go to the next question.

Do you believe that an antagonist is always weaker than the following arc's antagonist? If so Freeza is stronger than Beerus because Freeza was the antagonist of the arc following BoG. It wouldn't matter if Beerus didn't go full-power because Freeza is stronger out of virtue of being the antagonist after.

If you believe Beerus is stronger than Freeza than an antagonist isn't always weaker than the following arc's antagonist.


It's really simple tbh. You can't say "antagonist are always weaker than the follow antagonist except when they aren't" otherwise it isn't always. Unless you somehow don't think "always" means "every time" despite the official definitions.

Again, it's fine to think Toriyama's isn't some omniscient writer that can keep track of every single line that he wrote down/said. It's also fine to think that Toriyama has free will and can subvert writing rules.

Again you missed where Toriyama addressed your claim. He stated that Beerus is stronger than Freeza cause he "preserved his dignity" to be a future opponent. Which automatically makes Beerus stronger than Freeza, Hit, Black etc. Since he will fight later.

Once again, I know what he said but that doesn't negate the fact that Toriyama's lines are contradictory to each other which I've previously explained. If don't want to know what always means and if you don't believe that Beerus/Freeza is BoG/RoF's antagonist than I can't help you much further.

Toriyama's lines are not contradictory. Since RoF Freeza faced a stronger version of Goku [Blue] than the one Beerus faced [Red]. So technically the suppressed Beerus Goku faced was weaker than Golden Freeza. Every other enemy after that too. Since Goku got more powerful as the series went on. Yet Beerus is "preserved" for much later and will be stronger than all these past enemies when it's his time. To keep the next enemy > last formula.

[Miracles]

Current strongest is "always" demonstrated in the narration. Beerus enters in BoG and is set up to be entertained in battle by Goku/Vegeta according to the prophecy. So he spares earth and allows Whis to train Goku and Vegeta from there on for the prophecy's purpose. This plot point was reiterated again before the TOP by the Oracle fish. Golden Freeza comes in after BoG. In RoF, he faces a Goku in a whole new dimension of power from BoG, who achieved another level of god; Super Saiyan Blue. Then enters Hit, who faces a stronger SSB Goku, who trained in the ROS&T for three years [IIRC] for Universe 6 tournament. Then comes Black, Where Goku is again, in another dimension, attaining perfected Blue, allowing him to fight on par with a fusion. Not to mention Vegeta was greater than U6 arc Goku perfecting the bait and switch red and Blue tech against Black after the ROS&T training.

Then comes the TOP, We fight a being who surpasses a god of destruction in Belmond! A whole new level of power. This is shown when Jiren in base power, casually owns a stronger opponent from two arcs ago, in Hit, along with amore powerful Blue Goku from the Future Trunks arc. Even an underling in Toppo is able to fight equally against a full power Blue Vegeta. Who was stated to be equal with the stronger Goku. Again, demonstrating past opponents being garbage to the current. Even a stronger Golden Freeza [past opponent] coupled with 17 was trounced by a fatigued Jiren. Then Jiren has to get serious [wear an aura] against UI Omen Goku, followed up with using full power against UI Goku. Yet only manages to edge it out cause of Goku's stamina loss.

Enter Broly. Who fought stronger versions of Goku/Vegeta than the one's Jiren fought. Which both, merged into one current Blue fusion, in order to defeat Broly. Not only did fusion "combine" Goku/Vegeta's strengths but also "significantly" added a huge power up on top of that too. Compared to Jiren's weaker opponent types from the TOP, in a single UI Goku. Why is that? Even if Goku went UI against Broly, it would still be a stronger form than the one Jiren fought. Again, demonstrating the next arc opponent being stronger than the last cause the protag's are better than they were before too.

Here comes Moro, the current "always strongest." Who faced, at the start of the arc a "stronger than ever" Blue Goku/Vegeta after the Broly saga. On top of which, got even more powerful with the six month training [Goku getting three days worth of practice in one day in a special room with Merus. Vegeta on Yardrat] during the arc. Moro stated both have grown "far" stronger afterwards. Even Piccolo stated that Goku's Blue got "way stronger" since they last saw him. This same Blue Goku slaps a minion in Saganbo, who swung 17 [who was previously stated to be "just about as strong" as Goku/Vegeta], a "barely recognizable" Gohan [Who fought equally with Kefla, a fusion] and Piccolo all at the same time. All because Saganbo drank Moro's Powerade.

Moro In his base power alone is suppressed UI Omen level. Jiren against a weaker UI omen was not. This form of UI Omen is much greater than the one Jiren fought. When in Full power, Moro is stronger than this greater full power UI omen from the TOP. Where Goku was stated to be unable to "match" Moro. Which is proven to be true, since later, a Vegeta who Goku needs to "surpass again" shows up and can barely affect Moro too. Piccolo admitted that Moro can not be overcome by "training alone." Only a special technique that could take energy away could stop Moro, spirit fission. Then Moro powers up after absorbing 7-3, he casually one shots UI Omen Goku back to base form. No one has ever done that before.

So TLDR: The next enemy will always be stronger than the last cause Goku and Vegeta will always be stronger than they were from last arc. Meaning any form they take will trounce their previous versions. The level of competition for everyone escalates.

[Cipher]

So TLDR: The next enemy will always be stronger than the last cause Goku and Vegeta will always be stronger than they were from last arc. Meaning any form they take will trounce their previous versions. The level of competition for everyone escalates.

What does that mean if Goku and Vegeta don’t end the previous arc stronger than its antagonist to begin with?

As I said above, the growth can switch (and has?) from “beating stronger and stronger guys” to “beating a similar level of opponent (in different contexts to keep them unique and dangerous) using more and more of their own strength.” Which you have, even, in moving from a team/strategy attack against Jiren, to a two-character fusion against Broly, to individual techniques to beat Moro.

When and if the series ever wants to be clear about Jiren/Broly/Moro, it will be. There’s no reason to expect that it’s being coy when it never has been before.

EDIT — To be clear, I’m not saying “It’s not established, so no one can closely examine the series to make in-fiction arguments as to who’s stronger.” That’s the point of the thread, right? I’m just saying that this particular meta-argument is easily rebuked by the far more simple meta-argument that the series is clear every time it wants to be. And, uniquely in Super, it now has ways to to progress without needing to be.

[Helios518]

Again you missed where Toriyama addressed your claim. He stated that Beerus is stronger than Freeza cause he "preserved his dignity" to be a future opponent. Which automatically makes Beerus stronger than Freeza, Hit, Black etc. Since he will fight later.

Once again, I know what he said but that doesn't negate the fact that Toriyama's lines are contradictory to each other which I've previously explained. If don't want to know what always means and if you don't believe that Beerus/Freeza is BoG/RoF's antagonist than I can't help you much further.

Toriyama's lines are not contradictory. Since RoF Freeza faced a stronger version of Goku [Blue] than the one Beerus faced [Red]. So technically the suppressed Beerus Goku faced was weaker than Golden Freeza. Every other enemy after that too. Since Goku got more powerful as the series went on. Yet Beerus is "preserved" for much later and will be stronger than all these past enemies when it's his time. To keep the next enemy > last formula.

Imma make this really simple for you, you can't have "exceptions" if it's an "always" situation otherwise it's not "always." If Beerus is an exception then antagonists aren't always stronger than the last ones. Also, Toriyama didn't say "antagonists are stronger than the last one's displayed power."