Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

I presume this as well honestly. I got the impression (in the manga anyhow) the gaps aren't supposed to be massive anymore, but rather gradual shifts toward/surpassing the strongest fighters introduced throughout the serires.

I especially got that impression after re-reading all the material from the BoG prologue to the US arc. I'd even go so far as to claim that the 6-10-15 scale Toriyama talked about for the film might still very much be intact for the manga specifically.

I really wish folks wouldn't assign amplification math to things where it wasn't implied by the story, but here we are. It's their prerogative I suppose.

[Dragon Wukong]

I especially got that impression after re-reading all the material from the BoG prologue to the US arc. I'd even go so far as to claim that the 6-10-15 scale Toriyama talked about for the film might still very much be intact for the manga specifically.

I really wish folks wouldn't assign amplification math to things where it wasn't implied by the story, but here we are. It's their prerogative I suppose.

I actually agree. Part of the problem is people trying to use the anime's logic in the manga (which does use amplification math thanks to Kaioken)

[SupremeKai25]

Why do I get the feeling that the villain of the next arc could literally be the Grand Priest and some people on this forum would still be like "But nooo, Goku hasn't had his rematch with Beerus yet, therefore he isn't Beerus' level!!!"

[GodVegetto91]

"It’s impossible for UI Goku to be above someone who is 6 levels above Perfected SSJ Blue Goku"

Gogeta was not impressive at all... He's barely above Beerus as shown with Broly... If anything Beerus could do a lot better than Broly and actually land attacks on Gogeta unlike Broly who is a mindless ape. UI is leagues above current Perfected SSB which is way above Broly arc SSB. Those 6 levels you speak of don't mean anything.

Actually, Broly would win against Beerus given the fact that he CONTINUALLY! Keeps increasing in power as the battle progresses. He has “on-the-spot” zenkais it seems and can overcome anyone initially stronger than him in battle as long as he isn’t finished off before that point.

Yes, those 6 levels I speak of are overwhelmingly relevant..

SSJ1 is a FIFTY times multiplier! (50!)

I’ve done the math.. And even with an absolute LOWBALL.. Is SSJ Blue already 40.000x stronger than Base form.. (likely FAR, FAAA~AAAAAAAR Higher than that even!).

So I don’t see any way for UI Goku to be THAT MUCH above SSJ Blue Goku...

[GodVegetto91]

Why do I get the feeling that the villain of the next arc could literally be the Grand Priest and some people on this forum would still be like "But nooo, Goku hasn't had his rematch with Beerus yet, therefore he isn't Beerus' level!!!"

This is a totally unfair and exaggerated example and you know it. Please aim for a higher standard than this.

[SupremeKai25]

Why do I get the feeling that the villain of the next arc could literally be the Grand Priest and some people on this forum would still be like "But nooo, Goku hasn't had his rematch with Beerus yet, therefore he isn't Beerus' level!!!"

This is a totally unfair and exaggerated example and you know it. Please aim for a higher standard than this.

I mean, you'd still say it though.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I do gotta admit, I really hate seeing the "rematch" and "Oracle Fish prediction" arguments brought up time and time again because they're just so nonsensical to me personally.

Goku's hardly ever had actual rematches with his rivals to definitively prove who was stronger; he sorta just surpasses them and leaves them behind without ever fighting them again properly. It'd be perfectly in line with tradition for Beerus to have already been surpassed and him not even sweating about it.

And with the Oracle Fish, Goku became that very rival with Ultra Instinct.

It just doesn't make actual logical sense when you try and apply it to the dialogue and implications put forth by the various scenes in both mediums. It comes across as "this thing which didn't apply before definitely still applies now!" or "these facts are vague/not overly strict enough that you could potentially interpret them as being completely wrong!".

[FishermanJohnWest]

Broly, Vegito and Gogeta are the only characters scaling to Beerus

However, they are fan service characters, so basically, Goku or Vegeta or any antagonist isn't Beerus level unless they want that rematch or they are like Broly or the fusions.

[Jack Bz]

I presume this as well honestly. I got the impression (in the manga anyhow) the gaps aren't supposed to be massive anymore, but rather gradual shifts toward/surpassing the strongest fighters introduced throughout the serires.

I especially got that impression after re-reading all the material from the BoG prologue to the US arc. I'd even go so far as to claim that the 6-10-15 scale Toriyama talked about for the film might still very much be intact for the manga specifically.

I really wish folks wouldn't assign amplification math to things where it wasn't implied by the story, but here we are. It's their prerogative I suppose.

I would like this to be the case, but how do you fit blue fusions being about as strong as Beerus into things? Fusion massively inflates strength levels whenever it appears, and is always stated to be much more than just the two powers combined.

It makes the gulf between super saiyan God and Beerus enormous.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Not that it should come as any surprise at all but the drafts for the next manga chapter make it clear than Goku still ain't nearly as strong as Whis.

[The Undying]

I would like this to be the case, but how do you fit blue fusions being about as strong as Beerus into things? Fusion massively inflates strength levels whenever it appears, and is always stated to be much more than just the two powers combined.

Disregarding guidebooks, I think there's enough wiggle room between the ambiguity of fusion gains, Shin entertaining the possibility that Vegetto could be stronger than Beerus, and Gogeta being far above Broly (who was already said to be stronger than Beerus) that I don't think it throws too much of a wrench into things. The fusions are overpowered, but are generally held to a higher standard than Beerus anyway.

But fusion boosts in general aren't something I think the writers give a lot of thought. The fact that their base forms alone tend to feature markedly better performance than their fusees' strongest forms - especially given earlier statements about SSG being stronger than SS (or SS3?) Vegetto in Battle of Gods - is already pretty bizarre and requires some degree of headcanon to make sense of.

[Thani]

Just a friendly reminder that this guy

Spoiler:

is stronger than this guy

Spoiler:

but has been basically confirmed weaker than this guy

Spoiler:

I suppose these comparisons alone should speak for themselves: either Beerus isn't a 10 or the other Gods of Destruction are much weaker than what Toriyama or Toyotaro depicted them.

[GodVegetto91]

Just a friendly reminder that this guy

Spoiler:

is stronger than this guy

Spoiler:

but has been basically confirmed weaker than this guy

Spoiler:

I suppose these comparisons alone should speak for themselves: either Beerus isn't a 10 or the other Gods of Destruction are much weaker than what Toriyama or Toyotaro depicted them.

Or they retconned Beerus’ power after the ToP..

[Hugo Boss]

Personally, I don’t subscribe to the idea of retcon, because Beerus’ strength was always kept ambiguous, intentionally or not. Perhaps some people may not like the idea that Toyotaro and Toriyama have been planning this, but it doesn’t seem too difficult to assume that Goku was wrong on his assessment. He doesn’t have the whole picture. For now, it seems that Beerus is confident that he can swiftly beat a guy that Goku confirmed as tougher than Jiren and Broly, at least.

To add to that, Ultra Instinct doesn’t automatically warrant a well defined class. See how much difference there is between Grand Priest, Whis and Merus. Likely, that kind of gap is shared between the gods of destruction. It’s common to encounter comparisons between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue with them. I’m thinking that perhaps some gods of destruction are only that strong, which justifies why Beerus thought SSB Vegeta could be a candidate.

[GodVegetto91]

Personally, I don’t subscribe to the idea of retcon, because Beerus’ strength was always kept ambiguous, intentionally or not. Perhaps some people may not like the idea that Toyotaro and Toriyama have been planning this, but it doesn’t seem too difficult to assume that Goku was wrong on his assessment. He doesn’t have the whole picture. For now, it seems that Beerus is confident that he can swiftly beat a guy that Goku confirmed as tougher than Jiren and Broly, at least. Maybe Ultra Instinct doesn’t automatically warrants that rival status. See how much difference there is between Grand Priest, Whis and Merus.

Tougher. Not stronger..

[FishermanJohnWest]

Tougher doesn't eqaute to strongest, it can depending on the context but it also can't

It's similar to this

This was after Zamasu, and formidable can mean most powerful but here it doesn't

[Hugo Boss]

You can read tougher as not stronger, no problem. But you will have to ignore Goku’s explanation about how strong Moro could be if he trained, since his body could sustain that much without real effort.

[SupremeKai25]

Just a friendly reminder that this guy

Spoiler:

is stronger than this guy

Spoiler:

but has been basically confirmed weaker than this guy

Spoiler:

I suppose these comparisons alone should speak for themselves: either Beerus isn't a 10 or the other Gods of Destruction are much weaker than what Toriyama or Toyotaro depicted them.

I also found this pic online, maybe someone knows where it comes from (a databook?):



Regardless, Beerus > Jiren is 100% a retcon in both mediums. Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro blatantly messed up, they constantly have to retcon Beerus' power to the point that he's somehow stronger than an angel apprentice.

[shadd21]

Just read the drafts, Exactly where is this notion of Beerus' power being retconed is coming from?

[Thani]

Just read the drafts, Exactly where is this notion of Beerus' power being retconed is coming from?

Probably, I'd argue, people are thinking that Beerus is confident he can easily defeat Moro as he is now, which would allow him to do the same to MUI Goku and Merus.

Despite being shown last arc to fight roughly on par with the other Gods of Destruction, one of which who is confirmed weaker than Jiren, who is apparently confirmed weaker than Moro before getting Merus' UI. The same Moro who is also apparently confirmed stronger than Broly, who Goku compared to Beerus.