Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

The failed ritual was stated to still be a considerable boost in Goku's power. I consider it the classic 'friends give you power to overcome any power ceiling from before' type of thing. That's what Goku did against Og Broly in movie 8 and when he did it in GT, he even got a name for the form 'Ultra Full Power SS4'. So this is like the Broly movie an 'Ultra Full Power SS' but better (more Saiyans).

By the statement on its own, Failed Ritual SS Goku>=SS Vegito, which is less than Super Saiyan God.

Also I believe that this SS from the failed ritual≠ God's Crimson Radiance (as the wiki calls it) SS Goku. A Super Saiyan with most of SSG's power absorbed.

I see, that's fair. And how strong do you think Goku would've gotten in SSG if they didn't get the ritual wrong. Like, SSG on top of his regular self. Enough to still entertaing Beerus?

Also, did he get to keep that friendship boost? or it faded away like after M8?

I still want to believe that even after all these debates over the years, BoG was a temporary scale-up in power. But at the same time, Goku did keep some power for himself.

The friendship boost is a way to make the power donated to the character as something big. Like, in GT the guys who powered up Goku (even the sum of their powers) was absolutely nothing in the face of Omega. But Goku did overcome his non-Super form with that boost.

As for SSG itself, I believe that the failed ritual didn't drain any power off the Godly form. It was just a failed attempt. Since the God ritual in itself is beyond the concept of power and energy donation (unlike the other 3 examples I mentioned).

So the friendship boost faded, but some of SSG's power remained. He didn't fully absorb it tho.

New chapter spoilers*

It seems Moro still had power to spare, despite Goku going 100%. Quite strange that Goku mixed Ultra Instinct aura with Super Saiyan Blue aura, so he probably went above 100%, but his agility was getting worse.

Reading through the chapter, it didn't feel as much of a drastic thing as the spoilers showed. Other than that, Goku probably tried to power stress Omen like he did with Perfected Blue.

He probably tried to overcome his inability of using the complete version of UI, by strengthening his zomen strength.

Then again, this shows that Moro is def one of those threats that can reach multiversal levels of danger.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I can see Moro not being a Mastered Ultra Instinct level character because they're saving that for the next bad guy.

Which is the right thing to do.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

After seeing how outmatched Ultra Instinct Goku was against Moro, it made me think about how Moro compares to the Gods of Destruction.

When Super Saiyan God Goku was clashing with Toppo, Arak said the battle was already at the level of the Gods.

Now Goku is way more powerful than he was in the exhibition, but I still can't tell if he's in that class yet. He'd be above Belmod at the least.

I guess my main question is could anyone picture Moro being an issue for a God of Destruction? He said he gained enough power to transcend the Gods, but I can't tell if that's from any actual knowledge of them or if he's mainly going off of Goku's power.

[Nevaeh]

After seeing how outmatched Ultra Instinct Goku was against Moro, it made me think about how Moro compares to the Gods of Destruction.

When Super Saiyan God Goku was clashing with Toppo, Arak said the battle was already at the level of the Gods.

Now Goku is way more powerful than he was in the exhibition, but I still can't tell if he's in that class yet. He'd be above Belmod at the least.

I guess my main question is could anyone picture Moro being an issue for a God of Destruction? He said he gained enough power to transcend the Gods, but I can't tell if that's from any actual knowledge of them or if he's mainly going off of Goku's power.

Scaling GoD tier characters in the manga is a problem since we don't have much to go off of so it'd hard to say tbh

Anime Moro would at the very least be as strong as them imo. ToP Omen was strong enough to make Jiren tap into his full power and Jiren at FP was >= GoDs according to Whis.

[Grand Marshal 1]

After seeing how outmatched Ultra Instinct Goku was against Moro, it made me think about how Moro compares to the Gods of Destruction.

When Super Saiyan God Goku was clashing with Toppo, Arak said the battle was already at the level of the Gods.

Now Goku is way more powerful than he was in the exhibition, but I still can't tell if he's in that class yet. He'd be above Belmod at the least.

I guess my main question is could anyone picture Moro being an issue for a God of Destruction? He said he gained enough power to transcend the Gods, but I can't tell if that's from any actual knowledge of them or if he's mainly going off of Goku's power.

Scaling GoD tier characters in the manga is a problem since we don't have much to go off of so it'd hard to say tbh

Anime Moro would at the very least be as strong as them imo. ToP Omen was strong enough to make Jiren tap into his full power and Jiren at FP was >= GoDs according to Whis.

Although it kinda makes us question later, if manga's Omen is actually as much of a boost as the Anime one.

I mean, I can safely say that in the Anime it's a power at least 50 times superior to normal Blue, with its full power being perhaps 100 times superior to blue. Hradcanon, ik, but it felt natural for this to be the case.

I don't feel convinced that in the Manga Omen is meant to represent such a boost in power.

Perfected Blue is (in anime terms) = Full potential Blue at max output. So both the power Stressed variants and Vegeta's advanced state, didn't seem to provide nearly as much power as either KK×20 or Blue Evolution at its peak.

So I stand on what I said, that for now, in anime terms Moro should be above the GoD tier of Toppo, Broly and Evolution Vegeta, perhaps above Omen, but def below Full Power Jiren.

Unless if they make him an MUI tier enemy for the anime. Then Moro may as well require Blue Fusion to be defeated.

Sorry I kinda mixed my headcanon here, but it's the only way for me the explain my view on this.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If you mix and match the anime and manga, Ultra Instinct Sign Goku was stronger than Base Jiren who in turn was already stronger than a God of Destruction.

If Goku's Ultra Instinct Sign grew stronger since the Tournament then Moro being above that would make him within that realm no problem.

Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta beat Toppo when he was a God of Destruction and that obviously wasn't at a level then to trouble current Moro.

The manga does scale differently but if they make an anime and it does act similar with Moro so much as fighting on par with Ultra Instinct Sign Goku then he'd have to be stronger than at least one God of Destruction.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

After seeing how outmatched Ultra Instinct Goku was against Moro, it made me think about how Moro compares to the Gods of Destruction.

When Super Saiyan God Goku was clashing with Toppo, Arak said the battle was already at the level of the Gods.

Now Goku is way more powerful than he was in the exhibition, but I still can't tell if he's in that class yet. He'd be above Belmod at the least.

I guess my main question is could anyone picture Moro being an issue for a God of Destruction? He said he gained enough power to transcend the Gods, but I can't tell if that's from any actual knowledge of them or if he's mainly going off of Goku's power.

Scaling GoD tier characters in the manga is a problem since we don't have much to go off of so it'd hard to say tbh

Anime Moro would at the very least be as strong as them imo. ToP Omen was strong enough to make Jiren tap into his full power and Jiren at FP was >= GoDs according to Whis.

That's fair.

The GoD tier really feels impossible to gauge. I've seen some take Arak's statement to mean God Goku and Toppo are in their league, but I don't see it. Belmod seems to be the only one we can definitively compare to anyone.

[TheSaiyanGod]

After seeing how outmatched Ultra Instinct Goku was against Moro, it made me think about how Moro compares to the Gods of Destruction.

When Super Saiyan God Goku was clashing with Toppo, Arak said the battle was already at the level of the Gods.

Now Goku is way more powerful than he was in the exhibition, but I still can't tell if he's in that class yet. He'd be above Belmod at the least.

I guess my main question is could anyone picture Moro being an issue for a God of Destruction? He said he gained enough power to transcend the Gods, but I can't tell if that's from any actual knowledge of them or if he's mainly going off of Goku's power.

Scaling GoD tier characters in the manga is a problem since we don't have much to go off of so it'd hard to say tbh

Anime Moro would at the very least be as strong as them imo. ToP Omen was strong enough to make Jiren tap into his full power and Jiren at FP was >= GoDs according to Whis.

That's fair.

The GoD tier really feels impossible to gauge. I've seen some take Arak's statement to mean God Goku and Toppo are in their league, but I don't see it. Belmod seems to be the only one we can definitively compare to anyone.

I think that even considering only the manga, it is possible to get a sense of where Moro fits.

ToP UI Omen Goku was already able to force Jiren to use his powered up state, in addition to resisting his blows without problems. Current UI Omen must be massively stronger than that, so if Moro is stronger than current Omen, he must be more or less on the same level as Jiren (who managed to face MUI Goku because the latter suffered from the use of the Ultra Instinct ).

So, Moro must be stronger than at least some GoDs. And if he used absorption, I would say that he would not have much work to beat opponents like Jiren

[Miracles]

Moro's statement about being above the Gods makes him as strong as (manga) Jiren now.

I have no doubts he'll get even stronger in the near future and definetely surpass U11's warrior.

Remember, it's DB. Every villain is stronger than the previous one.

Golden Freeza < Hit < SsjR Goku Black < Merged Zamasu < Jiren < Moro (not yet, will soon be).

The only exception is Beerus while it's not sure whether Broly is superior to Jiren.

Hit isn't stronger than Golden Freeza, he was weaker than SSB Goku in the anime and said he had no chance without the Time Skip, in the manga his full power is nowhere near SSB and can only use the Time Skip just once. And Broly surpassed Beerus.
But I agree Moro will end up being the strongest ever by the end of the arc, if this arc ever ends, that is.


So, how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

Anime Hit is definitely stronger than Golden Freeza in both the U6 and ToP arcs (though not since the Broly film, Freeza improved).

Hahahaha

You say this after Golden Freeza fought a stronger Dyspo, when Hit got beaten up by a weaker Dyspo who Golden Freeza abused.

[ssj3kakarot]

Do people believe that post Yardrat-Vegeta has surpassed UI Omen level Goku?

Genuinely curious myself. From a story point, it sure appears to be implying that Vegeta is stronger.

I'm all for people getting stronger, appropirately, than other characters. But for the love of all that is holy, let it make sense. Roshi should never be able to touch Goku, even if Goku is sleeping, same with Krillin. No matter how much training, it shouldnt matter at this point.

It might be too soon to conclude anything with Vegeta, but imo, some training on Yardrat just shouldn't be equivalent to Angel training in a ROSAT. Again, will have to see how strong he got. When Vegeta went to Beerus's planet to train with Whis, that was PERFECT! It mad sense that Vegeta would catch back up to Goku.

[Miracles]

Vegeta just said he is stronger than Moro. Moro is stronger than UI Omen Goku.

We'll see next chapter if this is true.

[Sadala Elite]

Hit isn't stronger than Golden Freeza, he was weaker than SSB Goku in the anime and said he had no chance without the Time Skip, in the manga his full power is nowhere near SSB and can only use the Time Skip just once. And Broly surpassed Beerus.
But I agree Moro will end up being the strongest ever by the end of the arc, if this arc ever ends, that is.


So, how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

Anime Hit is definitely stronger than Golden Freeza in both the U6 and ToP arcs (though not since the Broly film, Freeza improved).

Hahahaha

You say this after Golden Freeza fought a stronger Dyspo, when Hit got beaten up by a weaker Dyspo who Golden Freeza abused.

- Neither Hit nor Dsypo were at full power when they fought (obviously)

- Golden Freeza got owned by Full Speed Dsypo and needed Gohan's help just to fight evenly.

- Meanwhile, Hit in his last fight in the ToP was able to put up a better fight against Jiren than SSBKKx20 Goku did in the hour special. Freeza has no comparable feats in the ToP.

[Miracles]

Anime Hit is definitely stronger than Golden Freeza in both the U6 and ToP arcs (though not since the Broly film, Freeza improved).

Hahahaha

You say this after Golden Freeza fought a stronger Dyspo, when Hit got beaten up by a weaker Dyspo who Golden Freeza abused.

- Neither Hit nor Dsypo were at full power when they fought (obviously)

- Golden Freeza got owned by Full Speed Dsypo and needed Gohan's help just to fight evenly.

- Meanwhile, Hit in his last fight in the ToP was able to put up a better fight against Jiren than SSBKKx20 Goku did in the hour special. Freeza has no comparable feats in the ToP.

Hit didn't fight Jiren, but went on the defensive, having planned to learn the timing of his attacks, in order to trap him in time cage. Which did nothing.

Goku actually went head up; pound for pound with Jiren. Enduring more; put out more power, plus the Genki, than Hit did. Who just blocked attacks and was done after one eye blast, then got sent flying, lol.

Dyspo was the only one who didn't use full power against Hit. Nothing about Hit not using full power against Dyspo.

[Sadala Elite]

Hahahaha

You say this after Golden Freeza fought a stronger Dyspo, when Hit got beaten up by a weaker Dyspo who Golden Freeza abused.

- Neither Hit nor Dsypo were at full power when they fought (obviously)

- Golden Freeza got owned by Full Speed Dsypo and needed Gohan's help just to fight evenly.

- Meanwhile, Hit in his last fight in the ToP was able to put up a better fight against Jiren than SSBKKx20 Goku did in the hour special. Freeza has no comparable feats in the ToP.

Hit didn't fight Jiren, but went on the defensive, having planned to learn the timing of his attacks, in order to trap him in time cage. Which did nothing.

Goku actually went head up; pound for pound with Jiren. Enduring more; put out more power, plus the Genki, than Hit did. Who just blocked attacks and was done after one eye blast, then got sent flying, lol.

Dyspo was the only one who didn't use full power against Hit. Nothing about Hit not using full power against Dyspo.

You are in denial lmao.

Goku was getting flicked left and right even in SSBKK and couldnt even land a single hit on Jiren (who maintained the same expression throughout) in the hour special before unlocking UI Omen. Hit on the other hand was actually did land several hits on Jiren in his fight, made Jiren get more offensive than before (besides the UI Omen fight), etc. Its obvious that Hit put up a much better fight against Jiren than Goku did without UI, same with Vegeta.

And there's no mention of scene of Hit powering up or going all out against Dsypo in their fight.

ToP Hit > ToP Freeza is a clear fact.

[Miracles]

- Neither Hit nor Dsypo were at full power when they fought (obviously)

- Golden Freeza got owned by Full Speed Dsypo and needed Gohan's help just to fight evenly.

- Meanwhile, Hit in his last fight in the ToP was able to put up a better fight against Jiren than SSBKKx20 Goku did in the hour special. Freeza has no comparable feats in the ToP.

Hit didn't fight Jiren, but went on the defensive, having planned to learn the timing of his attacks, in order to trap him in time cage. Which did nothing.

Goku actually went head up; pound for pound with Jiren. Enduring more; put out more power, plus the Genki, than Hit did. Who just blocked attacks and was done after one eye blast, then got sent flying, lol.

Dyspo was the only one who didn't use full power against Hit. Nothing about Hit not using full power against Dyspo.

You are in denial lmao.

Goku was getting flicked left and right even in SSBKK and couldnt even land a single hit on Jiren (who maintained the same expression throughout) in the hour special before unlocking UI Omen. Hit on the other hand was actually did land several hits on Jiren in his fight, made Jiren get more offensive than before (besides the UI Omen fight), etc. Its obvious that Hit put up a much better fight against Jiren than Goku did without UI, same with Vegeta.

And there's no mention of scene of Hit powering up or going all out against Dsypo in their fight.

ToP Hit > ToP Freeza is a clear fact.

No. Goku outright fought Jiren head up and took more and put out more.
Hit only schemed to learn Jiren's attacks so he could counter with Time cage which was useless.
One hit from the eye glare Hit was over. Hit didn't power up against Jiren either. The fact is Nothing was stated that Hit held back against Jiren or Dyspo ever.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Well if someone can use tactics to win in a fight, I believe that they can be the victor of a match up. Once Hit adapted to Dyspo, the latter couldn't do much. Why did he not power up? They probably kept it for the last second.

Hit did force Jiren numerous times. Albeit not nearly enough to deal damage to him, but Golden Freeza traded hits with empowered Dyspo and when both characters got tired (Dyspo didn't move and Freeza used energy for the field), Dyspo was on the losing footing against Ultimate Gohan.

Don't get me wrong, True Golden Freeza may have superior strength and possibly speed to Hit, but if Hit can overcome that with tactics he proba ly can be branded as >Freeza.

In the end, Freeza has not even experienced the Time Skip or any other of Hit's attacks. Dyspo and Jiren adapted to it since the one is a titan of power and the other one could exploit the situation with his speed.

But yes, Hit with the Time Cage, probably performed a feat that momentarily surpassed KK×20 Blue, although it didn't work well for him. Using that on Freeza would probably deliver positive result for the assassin.

Now if Freeza utilizes his telepathy and stasis moves effectively he may be able to overcome some time skips, but given how Hit has long ranged force waved punches, it won't last long.

Truly an interesting fight. For me it goes 65% in favor to Hit and 35% in favor to Freeza. ToP Freeza.

[Sadala Elite]

Well if someone can use tactics to win in a fight, I believe that they can be the victor of a match up. Once Hit adapted to Dyspo, the latter couldn't do much. Why did he not power up? They probably kept it for the last second.

Hit did force Jiren numerous times. Albeit not nearly enough to deal damage to him, but Golden Freeza traded hits with empowered Dyspo and when both characters got tired (Dyspo didn't move and Freeza used energy for the field), Dyspo was on the losing footing against Ultimate Gohan.

Don't get me wrong, True Golden Freeza may have superior strength and possibly speed to Hit, but if Hit can overcome that with tactics he proba ly can be branded as >Freeza.

In the end, Freeza has not even experienced the Time Skip or any other of Hit's attacks. Dyspo and Jiren adapted to it since the one is a titan of power and the other one could exploit the situation with his speed.

But yes, Hit with the Time Cage, probably performed a feat that momentarily surpassed KK×20 Blue, although it didn't work well for him. Using that on Freeza would probably deliver positive result for the assassin.

Now if Freeza utilizes his telepathy and stasis moves effectively he may be able to overcome some time skips, but given how Hit has long ranged force waved punches, it won't last long.

Truly an interesting fight. For me it goes 65% in favor to Hit and 35% in favor to Freeza. ToP Freeza.

Facts. Miracles is just in denial

[Hugo Boss]

Almost forgot that 17 and 18 were complimented by Moro, which is quite odd, since they couldn’t do much against Saganbo.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Almost forgot that 17 and 18 were complimented by Moro, which is quite odd, since they couldn’t do much against Saganbo.

Only because the fact that they were advanced enough lifeforms with infinite energy reserves that he could not absorb?

Other than that, I doubt the praise meant much.

[Mister_Popo]

Where do you guys place the new Omen-form in comparison to the sylver-haired form during TOP?
Of course Omen has become seriously more powerful than the original Omen we saw during TOP, but would it be enough to best the sylver-haired form during TOP? My guess it's still somewhere in between, but closer to the one-shot-sylver-form than to the original Omen.