Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

What you say doesn't match up with the story. Therefore headcannon.

Big words coming from an illiterate. As I said, even if you take particular statement to mean Jiren is only on par with them (because there's absolutely no "perhaps" when Whis says he reached that level), he powers up several different times after that occasion. Off the top of my head: in 115 Belmond notes that he's never seen Jiren so strong, so he's more powerful than earlier. In 126 he powers up to what is normally his full strength. And in 130 he gets even gets stronger towards the end of the tournament and far exceeds what used to be his limit, to the point of clearly overpowering MUI Goku, who a minute ago was ragdolling him. Meaning that, in the anime, he's directly stated to be stronger than them.

Jiren (130) >>> Jiren (126) > Jiren (115) > Jiren (110) >= Gods of Destruction in general

And this is only one statement. I see you're still trying really hard to ignore the others, or the manga where it's clearly demonstrated Beerus is not special among GoDs, and particularly that time in the anime where Beerus and Champa beat each other nearly unconscious, clearly demonstrating that they were at full power. Only for Vegeta to directly state later that such power was puny compared to an ultra-suppressed Jiren (though less suppressed than he was earlier in 110, when he was stated to be on the level of the GoDs).

Your other examples are the same. Out of context, general, non conclusive without specific confirmations. So I showed you in one of your examples that you are trying to insert your own feelings in the story. Look how you are trying to mental hoop through Jiren not being stronger than all the gods with your "but he powered up after that."

What mental hoop? That the Jiren in 130 is many levels above the Jiren in 110 who in turn is as strong or stronger than the Gods of Destruction in general is directly stated. There's nothing reaching about it.

So is Jiren being stronger than a specific GoD who is stronger than Beerus.

So what, even then no one claimed he surpassed all the gods let alone Beerus.

Vegeta and Kaioshin both directly stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren is far above any ki they'd ever sensed, which would include Beerus, when he was cutting loose against Champa to the point they grievously injured each other. You keep ignoring this.

You have to use statements from the story not your own wants and wishes.

Right back at ya. The projection here is quite hilarious. Please post your Beerus-wanking fan fictions somewhere else.

[Ajay]

This entire back-and-forth is so beyond what's acceptable on this forum, and it's 100% over.

Strikes and temporary bans have been handed out.

[superfan2024]

Goku's 48-hour return down the million-kilometer Serpent Road way back in the Saiyan arc (about 20,800 km/h not counting any breaks) shits all over Gohan's 3,000 km/h from the Buu arc. Best not to pay attention to any of Toriyama's numbers.

Oh, I know that, I was just using that as it seems to be in relation to casual speed.
Btw, on the previous post I think we’ll have to ageee to disagree... as this will just continue on for a while, and it takes up far too much time to reply to this on my phone.

Alright then. There's just one paragraph I'd like to highlight:

Btw I do only see the manga as just a promo at that point, so for me the anime should take precedence with what it shows in that arc, barring the SSJG absorption.

There's really no basis for this. Shueisha's promotional material has called the manga the "canonical sequel" to Dragon Ball, their "greatest Goku fights" poll currently being held uses images from the manga and includes no anime-only fights, and even Toriyama himself said that the anime staff should use the manga as a storyboard to "keep themselves on track." Toriyama also supervises the manga to a greater degree than the anime; he checks every chapter, making art and dialogue fixes and occasionally drawing and writing his own pages, while he admitted to not even reading the scripts for the anime's Zamasu arc.

Anyway, though the fusion line may be out, we see Ultimate Gohan fighting in the manga against Beerus, and he’s clearly miles below SSJG, and Rageta. Also SSJ3 Gotenks is nothing to Beerus in the manga, and U Gohan wasn’t way above him in the original manga.

I honestly think that's just because Gohan and Gotenks got extremely weak. We know from ROF, roughy one year later in-universe, that Gohan has degenerated so pathetically that he can hardly maintain regular SS1, and it's actually made a major plot point that he's regressed significantly. Which is why it's a big deal when he's stated to regain his power in time for the ToP. I don't think this all took place in that one year while nothing had happened in the previous four; rather I think he was already way weaker. The same should apply to Gotenks.

In the context of the original manga, Gohan being so weak by ROF doesn't make a lot of sense (considering he didn't lose so much power in between the Cell and Buu arcs, nor did Piccolo lose so much power from being sealed for 300 years), but it was in Toriyama's script so it's kind of unavoidable. With that being an in-universe fact, it makes more sense to me from both a logical perspective and a character perspective if Gohan had degraded from the first moment we saw him in Super.

EDIT: One last thing. Dende explicitly states in chapter 31 that "the evil version of Majin Buu" is the most powerful foe Goku and co have ever faced. Stronger than what he had seen from Beerus, stronger than Golden Freeza, stronger than Champa arc Hit, stronger than Black, stronger than Fused Zamasu. If Dende is talking about Buu at his strongest (and indeed, "evil Buu" is generically used in some guidebooks to refer to any of the non-fat forms) then that's surprisingly consistent with the idea that Ultimate Gohan is near-SSB level on his own and base Vegetto can wound CSSB-tier foes.

There is no way in this point in time that this could ever be true. Goku even said that he could potentially handle fat Boo at SS3 if he attempted. In the anime version of Super, a SSJBKK20 spirit ball (with the energy of 17, 18, and Freeza) was light work for Jiren while Boo failed to win against a SSJ spirit bomb with the energy of the Dragon Team prior to Super's events. Dende probably meant that it was his strongest opponent at the time.

[PFM18]

Oh, I know that, I was just using that as it seems to be in relation to casual speed.
Btw, on the previous post I think we’ll have to ageee to disagree... as this will just continue on for a while, and it takes up far too much time to reply to this on my phone.

Alright then. There's just one paragraph I'd like to highlight:

Btw I do only see the manga as just a promo at that point, so for me the anime should take precedence with what it shows in that arc, barring the SSJG absorption.

There's really no basis for this. Shueisha's promotional material has called the manga the "canonical sequel" to Dragon Ball, their "greatest Goku fights" poll currently being held uses images from the manga and includes no anime-only fights, and even Toriyama himself said that the anime staff should use the manga as a storyboard to "keep themselves on track." Toriyama also supervises the manga to a greater degree than the anime; he checks every chapter, making art and dialogue fixes and occasionally drawing and writing his own pages, while he admitted to not even reading the scripts for the anime's Zamasu arc.

Anyway, though the fusion line may be out, we see Ultimate Gohan fighting in the manga against Beerus, and he’s clearly miles below SSJG, and Rageta. Also SSJ3 Gotenks is nothing to Beerus in the manga, and U Gohan wasn’t way above him in the original manga.

I honestly think that's just because Gohan and Gotenks got extremely weak. We know from ROF, roughy one year later in-universe, that Gohan has degenerated so pathetically that he can hardly maintain regular SS1, and it's actually made a major plot point that he's regressed significantly. Which is why it's a big deal when he's stated to regain his power in time for the ToP. I don't think this all took place in that one year while nothing had happened in the previous four; rather I think he was already way weaker. The same should apply to Gotenks.

In the context of the original manga, Gohan being so weak by ROF doesn't make a lot of sense (considering he didn't lose so much power in between the Cell and Buu arcs, nor did Piccolo lose so much power from being sealed for 300 years), but it was in Toriyama's script so it's kind of unavoidable. With that being an in-universe fact, it makes more sense to me from both a logical perspective and a character perspective if Gohan had degraded from the first moment we saw him in Super.

EDIT: One last thing. Dende explicitly states in chapter 31 that "the evil version of Majin Buu" is the most powerful foe Goku and co have ever faced. Stronger than what he had seen from Beerus, stronger than Golden Freeza, stronger than Champa arc Hit, stronger than Black, stronger than Fused Zamasu. If Dende is talking about Buu at his strongest (and indeed, "evil Buu" is generically used in some guidebooks to refer to any of the non-fat forms) then that's surprisingly consistent with the idea that Ultimate Gohan is near-SSB level on his own and base Vegetto can wound CSSB-tier foes.

There is no way in this point in time that this could ever be true. Goku even said that he could potentially handle fat Boo at SS3 if he attempted. In the anime version of Super, a SSJBKK20 spirit ball (with the energy of 17, 18, and Freeza) was light work for Jiren while Boo failed to win against a SSJ spirit bomb with the energy of the Dragon Team prior to Super's events. Dende probably meant that it was his strongest opponent at the time.

At the time Dende said this, he didn't fight Jiren yet. So bringing up Jiren in a different continuity doesn't make any sense.

Either way it is a ridiculous argument to conclude that this means SSG has been nerfed.

[Lukmendes]

There is no way in this point in time that this could ever be true. Goku even said that he could potentially handle fat Boo at SS3 if he attempted.

To be fair, Goku saying he could beat Fat Boo isn't conclusive evidence, he talks about it like, 3 times, and he changes it each time, before fighting Far Boo he says he couldn't, after fighting Fat Boo he says he might be able to, and before fighting Kid Boo he says he could, and he feels confident he can beat Kid Boo anyways, but then in the actual fight he's surprised at how Kid Boo's stamina just never goes down, so again, Goku's confidence isn't conclusive evidence.

It is a term used to primarily describe something that incites fear, yes. But in a series like Dragon Ball where almost everything is tied to strength, it is almost undoubtedly fear as a direct result of the aforementioned strength. Sure, technically it is possible that this isn't related to power, but at the very least it is a misleading statement if Majin Boo at this point where Boo isn't really impressive in power compared to current threats. But this is kind of beside my main point.

Well, Shin does mention that Kid Boo is the most troublesome one, despite being weaker than Super Boo, so at least with Boo, it's not all about power.

It's also worth mentioning that being a formidable foe can mean the context of the time, Freeza in Namek was a far more dangerous enemy than RoF Freeza, since while RoF Freeza is far stronger, it wasn't as difficult to beat him

[Miracles]

Big words coming from an illiterate. As I said, even if you take particular statement to mean Jiren is only on par with them (because there's absolutely no "perhaps" when Whis says he reached that level), he powers up several different times after that occasion. Off the top of my head: in 115 Belmond notes that he's never seen Jiren so strong, so he's more powerful than earlier. In 126 he powers up to what is normally his full strength. And in 130 he gets even gets stronger towards the end of the tournament and far exceeds what used to be his limit, to the point of clearly overpowering MUI Goku, who a minute ago was ragdolling him. Meaning that, in the anime, he's directly stated to be stronger than them.

Jiren (130) >>> Jiren (126) > Jiren (115) > Jiren (110) >= Gods of Destruction in general

And this is only one statement. I see you're still trying really hard to ignore the others, or the manga where it's clearly demonstrated Beerus is not special among GoDs, and particularly that time in the anime where Beerus and Champa beat each other nearly unconscious, clearly demonstrating that they were at full power. Only for Vegeta to directly state later that such power was puny compared to an ultra-suppressed Jiren (though less suppressed than he was earlier in 110, when he was stated to be on the level of the GoDs).

Your other examples are the same. Out of context, general, non conclusive without specific confirmations. So I showed you in one of your examples that you are trying to insert your own feelings in the story. Look how you are trying to mental hoop through Jiren not being stronger than all the gods with your "but he powered up after that."

What mental hoop? That the Jiren in 130 is many levels above the Jiren in 110 who in turn is as strong or stronger than the Gods of Destruction in general is directly stated. There's nothing reaching about it.

So is Jiren being stronger than a specific GoD who is stronger than Beerus.

So what, even then no one claimed he surpassed all the gods let alone Beerus.

Vegeta and Kaioshin both directly stated that a heavily suppressed Jiren is far above any ki they'd ever sensed, which would include Beerus, when he was cutting loose against Champa to the point they grievously injured each other. You keep ignoring this.

You have to use statements from the story not your own wants and wishes.

Right back at ya. The projection here is quite hilarious. Please post your Beerus-wanking fan fictions somewhere else.

Vegeta or Shin never stated Jiren's power was greater than Beerus. They were general statements and do not decide anything about your non factual assumption concerning Beerus being surpassed. Trying to use a scuffle with Champa as proof of Beerus using full power is nothing but a reach. Please show me where it was stated Beerus was using full power against Champa? Again this is a fan assumption from you. Jiren surpassing his former power levels mean absolutely nothing either where Beerus is concerned. Truth is, Jiren was only stated to be stronger than Belmond. So your argument keeps falling apart cause you make claims the story never confirmed just because you feel Beerus should have been surpassed doesn't make it true. Even tho you keep repeating such non truths.

[Bullza]

I wonder if this Goat will be stronger than Jiren or Broly.

[PFM18]

I wonder if this Goat will be stronger than Jiren or Broly.

He doesn't look like a fighter, I don't think he's the final villain, or at least not in that state.

I hope something clears up where Jiren, Broly, and Beerus stand compared to one another because it certainly appears cloudy right now and it is annoying.

[Lukmendes]

I wonder if this Goat will be stronger than Jiren or Broly.

He might not be, against Jiren, Goku needed UI to be able to fight him, that's a really big deal, and against Broly they needed fusion, so "El Cabro Demoníaco" (Really like that nickname ) could be something between Black and Jiren/Broly in power level, assuming he's not a magician that is.

[Jmass97]

The way I see it is that originally ssjg was stronger than a vegito from the buu saga for this reason:

Vegito at that time was based off the multiplication of the full power of Goku at the time (ssj3) and Vegeta at the time (ssj2).

Base Vegito would then be as strong as them in those 2 forms multiplied. Of course current ssjg Goku/Vegeta wouldn’t be above a current base-ssj anything Vegito/Gogeta because their bases alone would be Goku’s current highest form (ssjb) times Vegeta’s highest form (ssjb) so a base vegito or Gogeta would obviously be stronger than themselves individually in blue let alone god.

In the case of Kefla, people were enraged and I don’t know why...Caulifla was a bit weaker than ssj2 Goku and Kale managed to hold her own against tired ssjg Goku all by herself. So of course if you fuse someone who is ssj2 level by someone who slightly lower than a ssjg level (given that Goku was exhausted) of course the resulting base alone would be above said weakened ssjg Goku. So ssjg being above a buu saga vegito in bog still can make sense you just have to really pay attention to how fusion works. Also, Kale and Caulifla are much stronger than buu saga Goku and Vegeta, this is proven in the anime and the manga so I don’t know why some people thought otherwise.

Also you don’t have to predict a theoretical ssj3 Vegito. You could technically use super vegito since that’s the highest Goku has ever went in that fusion at the time. However if you wanted to use a theoretical ssj3 vegito, that’s still fine because it would be 400 times a base vegito who is stronger than ssj3 Goku. A current ssj3 vegito would be 400 times a base vegito who is above a ssjb Goku. The power difference is not even comparable. I hope this clears things up for some people

[dbgtFO]

The way I see it is that originally ssjg was stronger than a vegito from the buu saga for this reason:

Spoiler:

Vegito at that time was based off the multiplication of the full power of Goku at the time (ssj3) and Vegeta at the time (ssj2).

Base Vegito would then be as strong as them in those 2 forms multiplied. Of course current ssjg Goku/Vegeta wouldn’t be above a current base-ssj anything Vegito/Gogeta because their bases alone would be Goku’s current highest form (ssjb) times Vegeta’s highest form (ssjb) so a base vegito or Gogeta would obviously be stronger than themselves individually in blue let alone god.

In the case of Kefla, people were enraged and I don’t know why...Caulifla was a bit weaker than ssj2 Goku and Kale managed to hold her own against tired ssjg Goku all by herself. So of course if you fuse someone who is ssj2 level by someone who slightly lower than a ssjg level (given that Goku was exhausted) of course the resulting base alone would be above said weakened ssjg Goku. So ssjg being above a buu saga vegito in bog still can make sense you just have to really pay attention to how fusion works. Also, Kale and Caulifla are much stronger than buu saga Goku and Vegeta, this is proven in the anime and the manga so I don’t know why some people thought otherwise.

Also you don’t have to predict a theoretical ssj3 Vegito. You could technically use super vegito since that’s the highest Goku has ever went in that fusion at the time. However if you wanted to use a theoretical ssj3 vegito, that’s still fine because it would be 400 times a base vegito who is stronger than ssj3 Goku. A current ssj3 vegito would be 400 times a base vegito who is above a ssjb Goku. The power difference is not even comparable.

I hope this clears things up for some people

It seems a lot of people are starting to believe this now and I agree, this is how it should work. The Saiyans do not have all of their power in base form and so the Fusion multipliers we came up with before Super tended not to consider the full power of the characters at all and just apply a flat boost to their base forms.
This started to irk me over the years and so I started believing it would make more sense that somehow their full power would be expressed in the multipliers and thus justifying a hypothetical Gogeta having a bigger proportional gap on Gotenks, than Vegeta and Goku had individually on Goten and Trunks.
So I'm pleased the Super writers seem to agree(or that it's just a happy coincidence, that it would logically have to be that way).

[Jmass97]

The way I see it is that originally ssjg was stronger than a vegito from the buu saga for this reason:

Spoiler:

Vegito at that time was based off the multiplication of the full power of Goku at the time (ssj3) and Vegeta at the time (ssj2).

Base Vegito would then be as strong as them in those 2 forms multiplied. Of course current ssjg Goku/Vegeta wouldn’t be above a current base-ssj anything Vegito/Gogeta because their bases alone would be Goku’s current highest form (ssjb) times Vegeta’s highest form (ssjb) so a base vegito or Gogeta would obviously be stronger than themselves individually in blue let alone god.

In the case of Kefla, people were enraged and I don’t know why...Caulifla was a bit weaker than ssj2 Goku and Kale managed to hold her own against tired ssjg Goku all by herself. So of course if you fuse someone who is ssj2 level by someone who slightly lower than a ssjg level (given that Goku was exhausted) of course the resulting base alone would be above said weakened ssjg Goku. So ssjg being above a buu saga vegito in bog still can make sense you just have to really pay attention to how fusion works. Also, Kale and Caulifla are much stronger than buu saga Goku and Vegeta, this is proven in the anime and the manga so I don’t know why some people thought otherwise.

Also you don’t have to predict a theoretical ssj3 Vegito. You could technically use super vegito since that’s the highest Goku has ever went in that fusion at the time. However if you wanted to use a theoretical ssj3 vegito, that’s still fine because it would be 400 times a base vegito who is stronger than ssj3 Goku. A current ssj3 vegito would be 400 times a base vegito who is above a ssjb Goku. The power difference is not even comparable.

I hope this clears things up for some people

It seems a lot of people are starting to believe this now and I agree, this is how it should work. The Saiyans do not have all of their power in base form and so the Fusion multipliers we came up with before Super tended not to consider the full power of the characters at all and just apply a flat boost to their base forms.
This started to irk me over the years and so I started believing it would make more sense that somehow their full power would be expressed in the multipliers and thus justifying a hypothetical Gogeta having a bigger proportional gap on Gotenks, than Vegeta and Goku had individually on Goten and Trunks.
So I'm pleased the Super writers seem to agree(or that it's just a happy coincidence, that it would logically have to be that way).

Exactly! And the series backs it up with base vegito being stronger than ssj3 Goku in z, base vegito proving to be stronger than blue Goku/Vegeta in the manga, base kefla being stronger than berserk kale/exhausted ssjg goku, and another example I won’t use because well...spoilers haha

[Miracles]

I wonder if this Goat will be stronger than Jiren or Broly.

We know in Dragonball the next villain is stronger than before cause our heroes Goku and Vegeta are always increasing in strength.
It outright stated in the manga that Goku and Vegeta after Broly became stronger. Now here we are facing off against a new enemy.

[WittyUsername]

Everything I’ve heard about from the upcoming movie kind of makes it sound like Broly is weaker than Jiren, especially if he apparently didn’t even push Goku into accessing Ultra Instinct. That’s all I’m going to say on the matter.

[PFM18]

Everything I’ve heard about from the upcoming movie kind of makes it sound like Broly is weaker than Jiren, especially if he apparently didn’t even push Goku into accessing Ultra Instinct. That’s all I’m going to say on the matter.

Based on the movie itself, it is completely ambiguous how they compare with each other

[GodVegetto91]

Here’s the truth guys. This is how it works with Toriyama and Toei. Whenever a new form or concept is introduced. It is always stronger than previously established forms or concepts the moment it is introduced. That does not mean it stays that way..

What i am refering to here is Super Saiyan God. Take this example for instance.

When SSJ God was introduced in the Battle of Gods Arc (the Beerus Saga) it was most definitely stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto of that same arc! So in the BoG Arc, SSJ God > Potara Fusion.

However, this only applies to the Beerus Saga. NOT any future Arcs! In all the future Arcs, even a Potara Fusion’s BASE form is stronger than SSJ God or even SSJ Blue for that matter!

Now, looking at this from an in-universe standpoint, only spells for trouble because it just simply doesn’t make sense.

This is why we always have to look at things from an OUT of universe perspective! Because only if we could understand things from the writers perspective, can we have a solid understanding of what’s truly happening. By getting into their minds.

SSJ God was introduced as a whole new level of power, therefore, it trumps ANYTHING a Potara Fusion could accomplish for Goku and Vegeta in that Arc. It’s true wether you think it makes sense or not.


The same goes for SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc..

The ToP Arc HEAVILY IMPLIED just regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta to be significantly superior to their Potara fused counterpart of the previous arc. Both feats and statements prove so. So SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta ToP > SSJ Blue Vegito (FT Arc)

However, now we have BASE Gogeta > Blue Goku and Vegeta!

So you see, it’s all plot related!

[GodVegetto91]

Everything I’ve heard about from the upcoming movie kind of makes it sound like Broly is weaker than Jiren, especially if he apparently didn’t even push Goku into accessing Ultra Instinct. That’s all I’m going to say on the matter.

Jiren didn’t attack Whis or fight a post ToP SSJ Blue Gogeta.

[Jmass97]

Here’s the truth guys. This is how it works with Toriyama and Toei. Whenever a new form or concept is introduced. It is always stronger than previously established forms or concepts the moment it is introduced. That does not mean it stays that way..

What i am refering to here is Super Saiyan God. Take this example for instance.

When SSJ God was introduced in the Battle of Gods Arc (the Beerus Saga) it was most definitely stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto of that same arc! So in the BoG Arc, SSJ God > Potara Fusion.

However, this only applies to the Beerus Saga. NOT any future Arcs! In all the future Arcs, even a Potara Fusion’s BASE form is stronger than SSJ God or even SSJ Blue for that matter!

Now, looking at this from an in-universe standpoint, only spells for trouble because it just simply doesn’t make sense.

This is why we always have to look at things from an OUT of universe perspective! Because only if we could understand things from the writers perspective, can we have a solid understanding of what’s truly happening. By getting into their minds.

SSJ God was introduced as a whole new level of power, therefore, it trumps ANYTHING a Potara Fusion could accomplish for Goku and Vegeta in that Arc. It’s true wether you think it makes sense or not.


The same goes for SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc..

The ToP Arc HEAVILY IMPLIED just regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta to be significantly superior to their Potara fused counterpart of the previous arc. Both feats and statements prove so. So SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta ToP > SSJ Blue Vegito (FT Arc)

However, now we have BASE Gogeta > Blue Goku and Vegeta!

So you see, it’s all plot related!

Preach it! Lol

[WittyUsername]

Everything I’ve heard about from the upcoming movie kind of makes it sound like Broly is weaker than Jiren, especially if he apparently didn’t even push Goku into accessing Ultra Instinct. That’s all I’m going to say on the matter.

Jiren didn’t attack Whis or fight a post ToP SSJ Blue Gogeta.

The spoilers claim that Gogeta completely manhandles Broly. Besides, given that UI apparently isn’t used in the movie, that gives me the impression that Broly isn’t supposed to be stronger than that. Why make UI a form that Goku can’t use at will if there’s nothing special about it beyond the arc that it was introduced?

As a side note, I’ve really got to stop getting into arguments about battle powers, especially since these characters are pretty much as strong as the writers want them to be.

[dbgtFO]

As a side note, I’ve really got to stop getting into arguments about battle powers, especially since these characters are pretty much as strong as the writers want them to be.

A wise policy.