Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

But Broly was never stated to be stronger than Jiren, so your own logic contradicts your statement.

Indeed. A direct comparison between the two should have been made in order to clarify the power scale. So, I doubt that Broly is superior to Jiren. Imo, he is near his Full Power, meaning that he could rival 3rd Omen Goku, subsequently all GoDs (given Goku's statement on Broly's power).

Besides, we shouldn't highball Broly that much on his first appearance. We are talking about an individual who went from below Base Goku/Vegeta to Omen 3 tier from just a couple hours of fighting. And he is just using his standard SSJ, which although can be stronger (×100 Base) it isn't like a god form. Kefla, a fusion of a Saiyan similar to Broly and another who had the advantage of learning extremely quickly, at her mutated SSJ2 was proved to be a match and actually weaker than Omen 2 Goku. So Broly is definitely a character who has received generous offers in terms of power.

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

But is this narrative always in effect? It wasn't when Beerus was made to be this supremely powerful being from the jump from BoG to RoF, and Hit wasn't actually stronger than Golden Freeza considering he was overall inferior to SSB, even if that SSB was stronger than before.

Besides that, there's a strong case to be made from implications and statements that Jiren has the potential to be stronger than Beerus by proxy of how Beerus has been compared himself to other Gods of Destruction.

At the very least, I believe that Ultra Instinct is meant to be cleanly above Beerus and thus Jiren with his hidden power would logically be above this, since it was Jiren's regular full-power that was in contention for potentially being above Beerus. Broly doesn't have this since he only gets the same kind of comparison as regular full-power Jiren. You could say he'd be stronger than that, and I'd believe it, but definitely not Hidden Power Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku.

Exactly my thoughts. Beers was meant to be stronger than Golden Freeza and this won't add up to the logic.

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

The way I see it, it isn't about the next villain being stronger than the last one, it is about the effort and power that the heroes will have to exert in their fight that increases.

Against Beerus: Super Saiyan God
Against Freeza: Super Saiyan Blue
Against Hit: Blue Kaio Ken
Against Zamasu: Fusion/Spirit Bomb
Against Jiren: Blue KK, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct, Spirit Bomb
Against Broly: two Super Saiyan Blues, True Golden Freeza and Fusion

I threw the arcs of Super into the mix and it works, but Broly stays loyal to how the movies proceed in terms of this effort from the main characters. That's what I think is what everyone misinterpreted WITH Toriyama's plan.

Even the Z movies display this. And Janemba was perhaps stronger than Hirudegarn. Of course it could be an exception, but Final Bojack really pose a threat to LSSJ Broly? Anyway...

[Hugo Boss]

Even the Z movies display this. And Janemba was perhaps stronger than Hirudegarn. Of course it could be an exception, but Final Bojack really pose a threat to LSSJ Broly? Anyway...

According to Takao Koyama, Broli was stronger than all these enemies that came before Beerus. Now, he is probably the strongest again.

[shadd21]

Judging from what by feats shown and statements made in both the anime and manga.

I feel that it’s ether Jiren = Beerus, or Jiren > Beerus

I just don’t see anything that remotely implies Jiren < Beerus.

[Miracles]

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

But is this narrative always in effect? It wasn't when Beerus was made to be this supremely powerful being from the jump from BoG to RoF, and Hit wasn't actually stronger than Golden Freeza considering he was overall inferior to SSB, even if that SSB was stronger than before.

Besides that, there's a strong case to be made from implications and statements that Jiren has the potential to be stronger than Beerus by proxy of how Beerus has been compared himself to other Gods of Destruction.

At the very least, I believe that Ultra Instinct is meant to be cleanly above Beerus and thus Jiren with his hidden power would logically be above this, since it was Jiren's regular full-power that was in contention for potentially being above Beerus. Broly doesn't have this since he only gets the same kind of comparison as regular full-power Jiren. You could say he'd be stronger than that, and I'd believe it, but definitely not Hidden Power Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku.

Despite Toriyama saying that the current opponents are stronger than the last in a continual present sense. You assume UI was greater than Beerus cause it was never stated. Secondly, you are assuming a single UI Goku is stronger than a Goku/Vegeta fusion. Which ultimately is the greatest trump card for the protagonists in Toriyama's story. Where he always had Goku and Vegeta's pride damaged from using it. Even Freeza in the Broly movie stated the fusion was "unfair." Due to Toriyama's narration facts, Jiren is not stronger than Broly and can't be stronger than Beerus who is the main antagonist for Goku to surpass.

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

But Broly was never stated to be stronger than Jiren, so your own logic contradicts your statement.

Goku Black was never stated to be stronger than Hit either. Hit was never stated to be stronger than golden Freeza even tho both villians fought STRONGER versions of Goku. Let's not forget, Toriyama himself says he always has the next villain greater. Please let's not forget, how you guys keep saying Beerus being surpassed contradicts Toriyama's story narrative of Beerus being Goku's goal.

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

The way I see it, it isn't about the next villain being stronger than the last one, it is about the effort and power that the heroes will have to exert in their fight that increases.

Against Beerus: Super Saiyan God
Against Freeza: Super Saiyan Blue
Against Hit: Blue Kaio Ken
Against Zamasu: Fusion/Spirit Bomb
Against Jiren: Blue KK, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct, Spirit Bomb
Against Broly: two Super Saiyan Blues, True Golden Freeza and Fusion

I threw the arcs of Super into the mix and it works, but Broly stays loyal to how the movies proceed in terms of this effort from the main characters. That's what I think is what everyone misinterpreted WITH Toriyama's plan.

Even the Z movies display this. And Janemba was perhaps stronger than Hirudegarn. Of course it could be an exception, but Final Bojack really pose a threat to LSSJ Broly? Anyway...

A current Goku and Vegeta fusion is the greatest effort one can do to beat an opponent. Vegeta and Goku's pride even resents them from doing it. It's a last resort effort when they can't beat one individually cause they consider it not their own power. This happened for Broly and in Toriyama's world fusion is the ultimate trump card for our heroes.

[Grand Marshal 1]

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

The way I see it, it isn't about the next villain being stronger than the last one, it is about the effort and power that the heroes will have to exert in their fight that increases.

Against Beerus: Super Saiyan God
Against Freeza: Super Saiyan Blue
Against Hit: Blue Kaio Ken
Against Zamasu: Fusion/Spirit Bomb
Against Jiren: Blue KK, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct, Spirit Bomb
Against Broly: two Super Saiyan Blues, True Golden Freeza and Fusion

I threw the arcs of Super into the mix and it works, but Broly stays loyal to how the movies proceed in terms of this effort from the main characters. That's what I think is what everyone misinterpreted WITH Toriyama's plan.

Even the Z movies display this. And Janemba was perhaps stronger than Hirudegarn. Of course it could be an exception, but Final Bojack really pose a threat to LSSJ Broly? Anyway...

Despite Toriyama stating the next villain is the stronger; a current Goku and Vegeta fusion is the greatest effort one can do to beat an opponent. This happened for Broly.

I can see that being the case with the movies. It is the most effort put into a fight. But power-wise it can't really work, as we never got to see fusion VS Jiren. Remember that when the potara were mentioned, the fear of losing two fighters at once didn't allow for their implementation. Oof, poor excuses toei. XD

Still, Broly is above the previous movie villain, but we can't be sure for the previous arc's enemy. I guess we can wait for a while. It hasn't even been a year.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

When has Toriyama stated anything about villains ALWAYS getting stronger and stronger recently, anyways?

I can believe it when he said such a thing ten years ago, but has he actually said anything of the sort recently, as in the past 3 or 4 years? He's changed his mind before.

Also, simple loophole. Jiren and Broly weren't villains. They were antagonists. Therefore, the next villain always being stronger no longer applies because it doesn't necessarily include major antagonists who aren't evil. BOOM. Logic lawyering makes the whole argument redundant

[Miracles]

The way I see it, it isn't about the next villain being stronger than the last one, it is about the effort and power that the heroes will have to exert in their fight that increases.

Against Beerus: Super Saiyan God
Against Freeza: Super Saiyan Blue
Against Hit: Blue Kaio Ken
Against Zamasu: Fusion/Spirit Bomb
Against Jiren: Blue KK, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct, Spirit Bomb
Against Broly: two Super Saiyan Blues, True Golden Freeza and Fusion

I threw the arcs of Super into the mix and it works, but Broly stays loyal to how the movies proceed in terms of this effort from the main characters. That's what I think is what everyone misinterpreted WITH Toriyama's plan.

Even the Z movies display this. And Janemba was perhaps stronger than Hirudegarn. Of course it could be an exception, but Final Bojack really pose a threat to LSSJ Broly? Anyway...

Despite Toriyama stating the next villain is the stronger; a current Goku and Vegeta fusion is the greatest effort one can do to beat an opponent. This happened for Broly.

I can see that being the case with the movies. It is the most effort put into a fight. But power-wise it can't really work, as we never got to see fusion VS Jiren. Remember that when the potara were mentioned, the fear of losing two fighters at once didn't allow for their implementation. Oof, poor excuses toei. XD

Still, Broly is above the previous movie villain, but we can't be sure for the previous arc's enemy. I guess we can wait for a while. It hasn't even been a year.

Well Broly is greater than every movie and arc villain since the Broly movie canonically continued from the TOP arc. Secondly, Toriyama says this is always the case in his narrative. Jiren lost to a single UI Goku where Broly lost to a full power fusion Goku and Vegeta, that not only merges both power levels but significantly increases it as well. Remember even Freeza stated this was "unfair." It's the very reason why Goku and Vegeta refuses to use fusion cause it is not their own power and it hurts their pride.

When has Toriyama stated anything about villains ALWAYS getting stronger and stronger recently, anyways?

I can believe it when he said such a thing ten years ago, but has he actually said anything of the sort recently, as in the past 3 or 4 years? He's changed his mind before.

Also, simple loophole. Jiren and Broly weren't villains. They were antagonists. Therefore, the next villain always being stronger no longer applies because it doesn't necessarily include major antagonists who aren't evil. BOOM. Logic lawyering makes the whole argument redundant

Well Toriyama states "the next enemy" is always stronger than the last. Technically they are enemies at the time Goku fights them. Toriyama ALWAYS had this story narrative and he even says so when BoG was made with Nozawa here...

Spoiler:

Interviewer: When you created Beerus, I believe it was already a given that he was “strong”.
Toriyama: That’s right; the strongest in the universe, as a matter of fact, since there’s nothing higher.

Interviewer: Incidentally, creating characters must be difficult….

Toriyama: It is difficult. I’ve already gotten to the point where I’m pretty much at my limit to making them look strong.

Nozawa: Every time, it’s “strongest”, “strongest”.

Toriyama: Right; there’s no way you can take a step back, can you? You can’t have [people telling you], “You know, the enemy this time is weaker than the one before,” after all. So, thinking that if I make it somebody cool, kids would probably be happy, and it could be popular, I figured maybe something like a cat who’s a bit spiteful would be good.

Nozawa: I think it’s good!

Toriyama: I can’t just draw a guy that’s straight-up cool.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... cial-talk/

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And that was 2013 back when Battle of Gods released and Resurrection of F wasn't even on the horizon yet a.k.a. not that recently like I highlighted and highly likely to not be all that relevant now.

Also, the evidence generally goes against the statement, since it's just a generalization and not some set-in-stone rule. It's not some factoid that Toriyama threw out to add to the setting, nor is it a clarification or something that needed explaining; it's literally just a bit of a trend that he likes to keep in mind for creating the next big character to make sure the story is always a bit fresh.

We have more concrete evidence to say that Ultra Instinct Goku and Hidden Power Jiren are likely above the established ceiling from before, Beerus. Games, statements, feats, and scaling.

Not to mention that you can't logically have Beerus being this ever-present wall who will always be the strongest AND always have the next guys stronger and stronger; it goes against the very logic being espoused in the first place.

Toei also aren't Toriyama. When they want to make changes to the basic outline, they do so, just like Toyotaro does. They made Goku and Vegeta A LOT stronger than the manga by adding additions to SSB, for example, and they added a power-up to Jiren to compete with Ultra Instinct.

[Miracles]

^TOEI and Toyo already said they do not change up Toriyama's main plot. Adding superficial mechanics to forms doesn't change the story narrative about Beerus's intrigue or character themes from Toriyama.

^Toriyama's statement is definitely relevant cause BoG is what continues Dragonball and began Super. Yet Toriyama STILL brought the strength escalation narrative with him. Proving that he has not changed up his intrigue in Dragonball or in Super.

Beerus can't be surpassed yet cause the main plot point of Super was the oracle fish giving Beerus a future rival in Goku. Goku has not
beaten Beerus. To randomly say Beerus is surpassed when it was absolutely stated NOWHERE contradicts the story of Beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

^TOEI and Toyo already said they do not change up Toriyama's main plot. Adding superficial mechanics to forms doesn't change the story narrative about Beerus's intrigue or character themes from Toriyama.

^Toriyama's statement is definitely relevant cause BoG is what continues Dragonball and began Super. Yet Toriyama STILL brought the strength escalation narrative with him. Proving that he has not changed up his intrigue in Dragonball or in Super.

Beerus can't be surpassed yet cause the main plot point of Super was the oracle fish giving Beerus a future rival in Goku. Goku has not
beaten Beerus. To randomly say Beerus is surpassed when it was absolutely stated NOWHERE contradicts the story of Beerus.

The prophecy was also about a Super Saiyan God AND was due to sensing Yamoshi, so you know, not really all that relevant now. This little bit was resolved as of BoG, and briefly touched on in the U6/7 Tournament Arc before being abandoned and never brought up as a point again.

You claiming that Beerus being surpassed is somehow a contradiction of the story of Beerus is a contradiction of the story of Beerus, because his story was never about being the sole benchmark; his story was about introducing a new level and a wider universe, and coming to see Goku as a new perspective with his tendency to push his limits. Beerus has been brought up as a benchmark lately because he's the point at which baddies are measured now since we're at the point in the DBS story where his level of power, the power of God of Destruction, has finally been surpassed.

Anyways, you mistake a trend with an absolute. If the evidence points to the contrary, that's it unless clarified later on. For the Toei version of events, evidence tells us that Beerus has most likely been surpassed AND that Broly wasn't the one to break the benchmark set by Jiren and Ultra Instinct.

You can think otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that we fundamentally disagree with the basic premise at hand. If we can't even agree on the basest foundations, we aren't in any position to be arguing the details with one another.

[shadd21]

The whole Beerus being Goku's "Endgoal" narrative is kinda irrelevant at this point following this exchange between Goku and Whis in Super:Broly

Whis:By the way, Goku-san, Why are you seeking even greater strength? Are you trying to be the next God of Destruction?

Goku: No way! I don't wanna be like that! There was that tournament between all the universes earlier, that's what showed me there are still crazy strong guys out in the other universes, It's got me all fired up!

Whis: So you've already set your sights on the other universes?

[Miracles]

^TOEI and Toyo already said they do not change up Toriyama's main plot. Adding superficial mechanics to forms doesn't change the story narrative about Beerus's intrigue or character themes from Toriyama.

^Toriyama's statement is definitely relevant cause BoG is what continues Dragonball and began Super. Yet Toriyama STILL brought the strength escalation narrative with him. Proving that he has not changed up his intrigue in Dragonball or in Super.

Beerus can't be surpassed yet cause the main plot point of Super was the oracle fish giving Beerus a future rival in Goku. Goku has not
beaten Beerus. To randomly say Beerus is surpassed when it was absolutely stated NOWHERE contradicts the story of Beerus.

The prophecy was also about a Super Saiyan God AND was due to sensing Yamoshi, so you know, not really all that relevant now. This little bit was resolved as of BoG, and briefly touched on in the U6/7 Tournament Arc before being abandoned and never brought up as a point again.

You claiming that Beerus being surpassed is somehow a contradiction of the story of Beerus is a contradiction of the story of Beerus, because his story was never about being the sole benchmark; his story was about introducing a new level and a wider universe, and coming to see Goku as a new perspective with his tendency to push his limits. Beerus has been brought up as a benchmark lately because he's the point at which baddies are measured now since we're at the point in the DBS story where his level of power, the power of God of Destruction, has finally been surpassed.

Anyways, you mistake a trend with an absolute. If the evidence points to the contrary, that's it unless clarified later on. For the Toei version of events, evidence tells us that Beerus has most likely been surpassed AND that Broly wasn't the one to break the benchmark set by Jiren and Ultra Instinct.

You can think otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that we fundamentally disagree with the basic premise at hand. If we can't even agree on the basest foundations, we aren't in any position to be arguing the details with one another.

The fact remains, Beerus rivalry with Goku was stated repeatedly to be in the FUTURE. There is no way an opponent surpassed Beerus if Goku hasn't even fought/ beaten him yet. The fact that the current enemy [Which Toriyama says is always stronger than the last, that means stronger than Jiren] was compared to Beerus proves the strength boost narrative Toriyama spins is still on the record.

The whole Beerus being Goku's "Endgoal" narrative is kinda irrelevant at this point following this exchange between Goku and Whis in Super:Broly

Whis:By the way, Goku-san, Why are you seeking even greater strength? Are you trying to be the next God of Destruction?

Goku: No way! I don't wanna be like that! There was that tournament between all the universes earlier, that's what showed me there are still crazy strong guys out in the other universes, It's got me all fired up!

Whis: So you've already set your sights on the other universes?

And shortly after that Goku gets his cheeks handed to him by someone in universe. Whom he doesn't even know is stronger than Beerus. That statement of Goku's doesn't mean Beerus is irrelevant but definitely proves that he is relevant.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You say "this proves that this subjective interpretation of the non-exact facts is correct", I say "this proves that this interpretation of the non-exact facts is correct".

No one has the actual undeniable facts here. You could be right, but so could I. You could be linking Toriyama and the evidence erroneously, but so could I.

How about we agree to disagree, so as to not clog up the thread?

[shadd21]

The whole Beerus being Goku's "Endgoal" narrative is kinda irrelevant at this point following this exchange between Goku and Whis in Super:Broly

Whis:By the way, Goku-san, Why are you seeking even greater strength? Are you trying to be the next God of Destruction?

Goku: No way! I don't wanna be like that! There was that tournament between all the universes earlier, that's what showed me there are still crazy strong guys out in the other universes, It's got me all fired up!

Whis: So you've already set your sights on the other universes?

And shortly after that Goku gets his cheeks handed to him by someone in universe. Whom he doesn't even know is stronger than Beerus. That statement of Goku's doesn't mean Beerus is irrelevant but definitely proves that he is relevant.

I never said that Beerus irrelevant, i said that the narrative of him being the endgoal post is irrelevant per Goku's own statement.

[Miracles]

The whole Beerus being Goku's "Endgoal" narrative is kinda irrelevant at this point following this exchange between Goku and Whis in Super:Broly

And shortly after that Goku gets his cheeks handed to him by someone in universe. Whom he doesn't even know is stronger than Beerus. That statement of Goku's doesn't mean Beerus is irrelevant but definitely proves that he is relevant.

I never said that Beerus irrelevant, i said that the narrative of him being the endgoal post is irrelevant per Goku's own statement.

My statement shows that isn't true either. Goku tried to compare "the much stronger Broly" to his endgame boss, Beerus.

[Koitsukai]

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

But Broly was never stated to be stronger than Jiren, so your own logic contradicts your statement.

Goku Black was never stated to be stronger than Hit either. Hit was never stated to be stronger than golden Freeza even tho both villians fought STRONGER versions of Goku. Let's not forget, Toriyama himself says he always has the next villain greater. Please let's not forget, how you guys keep saying Beerus being surpassed contradicts Toriyama's story narrative of Beerus being Goku's goal.

Yep, like I thought, pure headcanon based on out of universe statements from almost a decade ago.

Still can't prove Broly is stronger than Jiren, who was never directly stated to surpass Beerus, just like Beerus was also never stated to be stronger than Jiren, who was stronger than his own hakaishin and then grew even stronger. And Beerus just rules his own universe, if someone surpasses another hakaishin then chances are he is in Beerus's realm and if he gets a massive power boost, then he probably surpasses him. Is like having a hakaishin participate and then break his limits and beat up the guy everyone stood up to see... why would anyone need a direct statement to tell that this guy probably left the rest in the dust?

And Hit's trump card isn't his strenght, his techniques are what separates him from the rest, nothing points that Black stomps Hit and Hit stomps Freeza like Buu with Cell. Actually they did equally bad against Dyspo, and Golden Freeza one shot the blue out of post FT Goku. So yes, that Toriyama statement clearly is outdated and in DBS there are many "plotholes" for it, like Future Zamasu being not that strong but immortal, Golden Freeza having already in RoF the incredible power he learnt to control in the ToP, or Moro also not being that strong but having magical powers to compensate. It is not so linear anymore thus a basic statement like "the next one is just stronger than the previous one" has no place. Maybe in Z, but Super has given us different types of villains that are outside the box and fail to fall so easily into this "one is stronger just because it came later" thing.
Not even the DBS movies follow that statement: 2013 BoG top dog Beerus.. 2015 RoF a much weaker Golden Freeza... 2019 Broly who may or may not be stronger than Beerus. So in movies it might actually be the other way around.

[Miracles]

But Broly was never stated to be stronger than Jiren, so your own logic contradicts your statement.

Goku Black was never stated to be stronger than Hit either. Hit was never stated to be stronger than golden Freeza even tho both villians fought STRONGER versions of Goku. Let's not forget, Toriyama himself says he always has the next villain greater. Please let's not forget, how you guys keep saying Beerus being surpassed contradicts Toriyama's story narrative of Beerus being Goku's goal.

Yep, like I thought, pure headcanon based on out of universe statements from almost a decade ago.

Still can't prove Broly is stronger than Jiren, who was never directly stated to surpass Beerus, just like Beerus was also never stated to be stronger than Jiren, who was stronger than his own hakaishin and then grew even stronger. And Beerus just rules his own universe, if someone surpasses another hakaishin then chances are he is in Beerus's realm and if he gets a massive power boost, then he probably surpasses him. Is like having a hakaishin participate and then break his limits and beat up the guy everyone stood up to see... why would anyone need a direct statement to tell that this guy probably left the rest in the dust?

And Hit's trump card isn't his strenght, his techniques are what separates him from the rest, nothing points that Black stomps Hit and Hit stomps Freeza like Buu with Cell. Actually they did equally bad against Dyspo, and Golden Freeza one shot the blue out of post FT Goku. So yes, that Toriyama statement clearly is outdated and in DBS there are many "plotholes" for it, like Future Zamasu being not that strong but immortal, Golden Freeza having already in RoF the incredible power he learnt to control in the ToP, or Moro also not being that strong but having magical powers to compensate. It is not so linear anymore thus a basic statement like "the next one is just stronger than the previous one" has no place. Maybe in Z, but Super has given us different types of villains that are outside the box and fail to fall so easily into this "one is stronger just because it came later" thing.
Not even the DBS movies follow that statement: 2013 BoG top dog Beerus.. 2015 RoF a much weaker Golden Freeza... 2019 Broly who may or may not be stronger than Beerus. So in movies it might actually be the other way around.

Wrong, Beerus is the endgame as BoG was a setup for he and Goku to have a fight in the future. That is the plot, a stated fact that can not be refuted. So Beerus doesn't factor in the formula since he is waiting for Goku later. Freeza was next, who barely was stronger than a Blue Goku. Hit then fought a stronger Goku who could use Blue KKX10. Which Hit needed to power up in order to compete against this stronger Goku. Black who Zenkai's all day fought a stronger Goku who could overpower a fusion in Zamas in Blue alone, Then here comes Jiren, who is stronger than Black; stronger than Belmond, then, here comes Broly, who is stronger than Jiren, who was compared to Goku's future plot battle goalpost in Beerus. Finally, Moro; who due to his magic, MAKES him strongest as he will literally suck up any previous opponent's powers and use it as his own to boost his own battle power. So you are factually wrong again about DB's story.

Now here's the icing on the cake, these facts lead us to the ULTIMATE truth. Back to The highest authority on DB's story, the author himself, Akira Toriyama is ALWAYS an in-universe canon statement. Telling the audience HOW his story is structured. He said the next enemy is always the strongest. You trying to explain this continual plot fact away with headcanon is a heinous transgression.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If they simply outright said "Beerus is the current benchmark that no recent antagonist has hit just yet" now, there wouldn't be a debate.

But they haven't.

They've tiptoed around the idea, seeding the potential and letting the fans decide for themselves.

For example, i could easily say "Broly is only being compared to Beerus because Broly hasn't reached the Jiren benchmark", and I'd be perfectly fine in my interpretation because nobody ever said that comparing characters had to only be to the current strongest. Nothing goes against this conceit, and in fact it fits better with the known evidence and scaling.

[ekrolo2]

Jiren is above Beerus, that much is without question. Whis, upon seeing him fight back the Genki-dama with a glare knew the rumor of a non-God being above Hakaishin was in-fact true. Note this is before the several times Jiren ever even starts fighting seriously. Never mind his final power-up which increased his ordinary abilities to match UI Goku, even letting Jiren hurt him on several occasions in-spite of UIs ridiculously high-quality dodging abilities.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Jiren is above Beerus, that much is without question. Whis, upon seeing him fight back the Genki-dama with a glare knew the rumor of a non-God being above Hakaishin was in-fact true. Note this is before the several times Jiren ever even starts fighting seriously. Never mind his final power-up which increased his ordinary abilities to match UI Goku, even letting Jiren hurt him on several occasions in-spite of UIs ridiculously high-quality dodging abilities.

To be fair, I do believe Whis was mentioning that with regards to how suppressed he is despite so effortlessly stalemating Goku's Genkidama; only someone that strong could push back the Genkidama with the level of suppression being used.

Goku had a harder time with Jiren in a fresh SSB/KKx20 state while pushing to the limits of his limits than he did against Pure Buu in his tired-out base form, and Pure Buu could only barely push back the Genkidama while Jiren very solidly kept it right between him and Goku.

So, at the bare minimum, Jiren should be in the ballpark of hundreds of times stronger than SSB/KKx20. Easily fits the notion that it takes SSB Fusion to reach and surpass the level of God of Destruction with that kind of power gap.